Would you two Shut UP?!?! Twin Black Blades and the trouble they cause...


Advice

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ok, so this was discussed in another thread and a few of use realized that it is now entirely possible to make a character that gets two Black Blades. I am endeavoring to make this character a reality and would like some help to flesh it out.

aside from the obvious issue with a single character wielding two Black Blades (they are obviously going to hate each other). If we assume that they are actually willing to work along side one another, either out of mutual necessity, or some plot point about being twins, or copies or whatever else. the Mechanical aspect of how this character would work needs fine tuning.

So here is what i have come up with so far:

as a base, just to make it playable, the character needs to start at level 6 just to have acquired both blades. so in any combination, we need to take:

3 levels in Magus (Bladebound)
3 levels in Arcanist (Blade Adept)

aside from needing these two archetypes to function, i also think that because we are taking levels in arcanist we need to take the Eldritch Scion archetype so that we can focus on just CHA as our main stat for both classes. This also lets us do some cool things later on by taking the Arcane Bloodline for the Bloodrager.

so.....last thing I'll add is that in order to make this work we are going to need 2 weapons: we can either do the popular idea and make both ends of a double weapon the two black blades, which would be easy enough to pull off by just adding on the Staff Magus archetype to everything else but theres still the requirement of 1 handed slashing weapons for Blackblades to overcome. My personal Idea, though, is to take two Sawtooth Sabres for weapons. both qualify and are identical so there is no disperity. the exotic weapon proficiency makes them easy to TWF with as well.

I will be posting my initial build later (i need to build it first). any ideas on race? traits? build concepts?


Staff Magus would be a no-go since a Quarterstaff isn't a slashing weapon.


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Dual wielding kukris who claim to represent the opposing forces of order and chaos.

They're married.


Play devil may cry 3. You'll get all the inspiration you need.

Scarab Sages

Black Blades must be a one handed slashing weapon, rapier, or sword cane. They can't be light weapons, so kukris are out.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would not allow a character to have two blackblades any more than I would allow two familiars.

The classes however, can stack for blackblade progression though.


this is why the sawtooth sabre is the perfect weapon for this. it meets everything we need, and can be used for TWF with the minimal penalties.

Scarab Sages

TarkXT wrote:

Dual wielding kukris who claim to represent the opposing forces of order and chaos.

They're married.

Go dex based bladebound kensai. Pick Aldori Dueling Swords + Slashing Grace and get dex-to-damage at level 1.


if you are going sawtooth why not falcata? Both are exotic.

Scarab Sages

If the point is to have two of them, I assume you want them to be easy to dual wield.

Scarab Sages

Caimbuel wrote:
if you are going sawtooth why not falcata? Both are exotic.

Sawtooth sabre counts as a light weapon in the off-hand.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

They don't just stack?

That seems more reasonable.


Per stacking I believe they do, what he can get in front a DM is another matter.


Dex build is a good idea, but this build requires TWF, a mass of proficiency feats, and to take all the fun toys from either class (exploits and arcana) we already need to burn feats for the "extra X" feats to get them. So is it really doable?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

They don't just stack?

That seems more reasonable.

there are no lines in either Blackblade description that illude to stacking. essentially when you take one, you get one, ten you take the other and its entirely separate of the first. the only thing that stops it is the "no familiar" line, but the blackblade its self doesnt count as a familiar, so that line does not prevent a second blackblade.


I expect most GMs would rule that they stack and most players would prefer that if for some reason they wanted to be both a Bladebound Magus and a Blade Adept Arcanist. Perhaps due to self hatred or something.

I even if you have two blades, I don't think it is reasonable to expect that they hate one another. While the player chooses these archetypes, the flavor strongly indicates that it is the blade that chooses the character. So at least one blade (the second one) has knowingly picked a person that already had one, and one can expect it also knows that the other blade would be willing to work with it. In any event, while their might be occasional conflict, mostly they would probably be willing to work together.


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This isn't the rules forum. The rules about the idea is allowed or not are ambiguous. It would be up to the individual GM.

Let's not focus on if it should be allowed. Instead let's assume that it is allowed for the sake of argument and discuss the interesting things about the central premise.


I played a game once and found a weapon. They were limited on text box size and the name was too long to display in its entirety so they shortened it. Unfortunately, this particular weapon was a Black Bastard Sword. They wanted to keep the 'Black' descriptor and didn't just want to call it a 'Black Sword'. So... "You have found a Black Bastard." And it occurs to me, that a Magus wielding a pair of Black Bastard Swords... who's nickname is "The Black Bastard" may be ideal for what you're trying to pull off.


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The concept itself is seriously weak because of the butchered spell progression.

For best results the concept should be used in a Gestalt game.

As far as the character goes, I think a follower of Nethys works best conceptually. Each blade could embody one aspect of Nethys' dual personalities.

Scarab Sages

Shimesen wrote:
Dex build is a good idea, but this build requires TWF, a mass of proficiency feats, and to take all the fun toys from either class (exploits and arcana) we already need to burn feats for the "extra X" feats to get them. So is it really doable?

A human kensai starts with 4 feats, two of which give the exotic weapon proficiency and weapon focus.

Going with a dex build would require a 1 level dip into swashbuckler, but you've already blown your spell progression.

Human Dual BB Build idea

1. bladebound kensai: EWP(SS), WF(SS), TWF, Arcane Strike
2. bladebound kensai
3. swashbuckler: Slashing Grace
4. bladebound kensai:
5. blade adept: Double Slice
6. blade adept:
7. blade adept: Power Attack, Arcane Weapon
8. bladebound kensai
9. bladebound kensai: Weapon Specialization (SS), EE(Dimensional Slide)
10. bladebound kensai: Broad Study

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Seeing as it the exact same feature as the Bladebound Magus feature, and even refers to it, and counts it's levels, as Magus for the ability, then they should stack.

Much like multiple classes with a Familiar.

Scarab Sages

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Seeing as it the exact same feature as the Bladebound Magus feature, and even refers to it, and counts it's levels, as Magus for the ability, then they should stack.

Much like multiple classes with a Familiar.

RAI, I agree.

RAW, I'm not so sure.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Start a Rules thread on it?


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blackbloodtroll wrote:

Seeing as it the exact same feature as the Bladebound Magus feature, and even refers to it, and counts it's levels, as Magus for the ability, then they should stack.

Much like multiple classes with a Familiar.

we beat that argument to death once before when discussing the merits of 2 bonded objects with a wizard/sorcerer cross class....that thread was exausting, and if i remember correctly, it was never very clear as to how that would be ruled. this would be much the same idea as 2 bonded items. nothing clearly states that gaining a second one instead increases the one you already have. either way, this is just a concept build, so lets go with it works, so the sake of this thread.


Well the biggest problem is how would you cast spells?

Disregarding your bad BAB and well everything else.

I would go for the swords being married suggestion for flavor.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Not having them stack just sounds like way more of a mess, than just having them stack.


spells are easy. by taking Eldritch scion, you can grab arcane bloodline from bloodrager and use the booodline powers to buff faster and better than a normal magus anyway. then, using a glove of storing you can keep one hand free for when you plan on using a spell. Blackblade enhancement+arcane pool+exploits more than makes up for the terrible bab.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Not having them stack just sounds like way more of a mess, than just having them stack.

im sure it is, but again, this is about simply having two so they can argue in your head. i gives two hoots that the paperwork is terrible...


Hum.. Well how do you intend to progress them?

Could have one evil and one good... You be neutral, whichever is stronger you could have that one be the arcanist and base it off caster level, then start taking eldrtich knight.. it'll still level up based on that.
Play them as your little representations of a conscious. your bab won't be great and you won't be a heavy duty spell caster but with spell combat you can still do some. Not super strong but I gotta agree with the fun f lavor.

On the stacking bit. I suppose if your GM was generous considering what your giving up, you could ask him to let them stack but you get two blades (maybe lower the bonuses? I'd just make you split the bonuses between them, but give you an option to spend arcana or exploit points when using your power up ability to push them both to normal progression) since then you could get the arcanist's blade to caster level, then eldritch knight. So they'd both scale.


Are there not a set of martial arts blades that can be dual wielded or you can combine the ends and it kinda makes a flail like weapon? This would allow you to wield both blades in one hand when necessary to cast spells and such.

Scarab Sages

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Start a Rules thread on it?

Sure, add it to the last six I started this week that have already been dropped.

Scarab Sages

Malwing wrote:

Well the biggest problem is how would you cast spells?

Disregarding your bad BAB and well everything else.

I would go for the swords being married suggestion for flavor.

/shrug

It is a horrible build from the point of optimization. Could be fun with the right person running it.


Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Are there not a set of martial arts blades that can be dual wielded or you can combine the ends and it kinda makes a flail like weapon? This would allow you to wield both blades in one hand when necessary to cast spells and such.

Are you thinking of the shan gou?

As a GM, I can see a lot of fun story-telling possibilities with two intelligent blades trying to fight over the same wielder.

Mechanically, though, it could be a nightmare.


Still spell or a tail/vestigial arm? I prefer still spell, but it is another feat in an already feat intensive build. Better solution might be to take 5 levels as an arcane trickster and use tricky spells, but that requires 2d6 of sneak attack.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Artanthos wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Start a Rules thread on it?

Sure, add it to the last six I started this week that have already been dropped.

Huh. Got a link to one covering this exact circumstance?


LazarX wrote:

I would not allow a character to have two blackblades any more than I would allow two familiars.

The classes however, can stack for blackblade progression though.

Personally fail to see how it's more silly than disruptive; excluding by being silly.

That said, the latter point could be interesting were there anything fun to gain.

Malwing wrote:

Well the biggest problem is how would you cast spells?

Disregarding your bad BAB and well everything else.

I would go for the swords being married suggestion for flavor.

Do you still need a hand free when there are no somatic components?

Of course - more on topic; given they are (iirc) only required to share your alignment (and alignments' amorphousness); enjoy really exploring [insert choice here].


Okay, gut reactions:

-Should be Kensai to get the free weapon prof and weapon focus, as well as not wear armor for the arcanist side.
-You can get the Arcanist BB scale off of caster level; this means that Magus scales it, so as long as you got the arcana that does that you can just continue taking magus levels to advance that blackblade (although, it'll be 3 levels behind on the magus side, sadly).
-You still want a free hand for casting. While I'd rule that you can combine the swords into a singe double-edged sword and be awesome like that, sadly, I'm not most GMs. As is, you need a workaround; being a tiefling with prehensile tail can work, as you can just have it hold the weapon while you cast, then switch it back into your hands.
-Tiefling also works because it has the best stat bonuses for Magus, and an SLA to scale the Arcanist blackblade for you.


LoneKnave wrote:

Okay, gut reactions:

-Should be Kensai to get the free weapon prof and weapon focus, as well as not wear armor for the arcanist side.
-You can get the Arcanist BB scale off of caster level; this means that Magus scales it, so as long as you got the arcana that does that you can just continue taking magus levels to advance that blackblade (although, it'll be 3 levels behind on the magus side, sadly).
-You still want a free hand for casting. While I'd rule that you can combine the swords into a singe double-edged sword and be awesome like that, sadly, I'm not most GMs. As is, you need a workaround; being a tiefling with prehensile tail can work, as you can just have it hold the weapon while you cast, then switch it back into your hands.
-Tiefling also works because it has the best stat bonuses for Magus, and an SLA to scale the Arcanist blackblade for you.

I suppose, if you can convince the blades to play nice, you could use a butterfly sword. That might be kind of fun if they are arguing, though...


Not bad! Too bad there is no double hookswords weapon, that'd be another good candidate for "combination" double weapon.

BTW, another solution to "how the hell do I cast and generally use my class abilities with two weapons in hand" would be to use the Weapon Wand spell and the wand wielder arcanas. At least that can cover whatever generic spell you want to use every turn.


Well assuming your starting the game at a high enough level that you have both blades...
Use a double sword. you can let go with one hand tocast then attack with both. and I think it'd be even funnier if both sides of the same blade argue with eachother.
haha whenever you put it down, one side will be onthe ground side. and they'll just complain, while the side above gloats at being the favorite.

I see no real harm in:
Allowing two weapons from the two classes. and allowing them to stack, and then allowing you to scale on caster level and go into eldrtich knight.


Is incredible how more than 75% of people went to the rules section, instead of helping the guy with creativity.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Zilfrel Findadur wrote:
Is incredible how more than 75% of people went to the rules section, instead of helping the guy with creativity.

It makes sense.

You need to know if a build is legal, before you can give good advice on the build.

Silver Crusade

I would allow it, combining two classes that are bad at two weapon fighting, and of yours preventing spell combat... well it won't be that good.


It would be interesting to talk a GM into dropping black blades having to be one-handed-slashing weapons/rapiers/sword canes, then this could be a dwarf using earthbreaker & klar.

I think ImpTWF should be a feat choice, perhaps replacing weapon specialization at level 9, which the character doesn't qualify for since they are only kensai level 5 at character level 9.

The Exchange

Zilfrel Findadur wrote:
Is incredible how more than 75% of people went to the rules section, instead of helping the guy with creativity.

Is not incredible! Is quite typical. Now, excuse me to go... Must destroy moose and squirrel!

Sorry, I don't usually mock obvious typing bloopers, but fake East European accents amuse me. On topic, I'm sure I read a ruling somewhere that any class feature with the same name derived from two different classes is to automatically be treated as 'stacking' rather than granting the benefit(s) twice: in most cases that's obviously more beneficial. I just don't recall whether it was a rule in a book or one of the FAQs hereabouts.

I agree and understand that in this case the two blades are the gimmick the player intends for his PC, and given that arcanists aren't exactly famed as swordsmen I don't know that there'd be any balance issues. (And I can't help thinking of the uncomfortable consequences when mortals try to dual-wield two of Saberhagen's Twelve Swords.)

One last note: Never let the twin blades hear of this concept of "voting." You'd lose every debate, two to one.


I have just one piece of advice if you're going to try this.

No, talking.


popping in to note: decent weapon to consider might be the aldori dueling sword--it's one-handed, slashing, and martial (treated as longsword). if you take bladebound+kensai magus levels first, you can get free EWP and weapon focus in it for finesse+slashing grace later (letting you be largely dex-centric on the physical side)

you need at least 3 in both for both swords, and you'd NEED the eldritch blade exploit at level 1 arcanist, otherwise it's not scaling much.

you could also go (BB+kensai magus 3/BA arcanist 3/+13 magus) for two level-17 black blades in the endgame. you'd get your first blade at 3rd (counting as level 3), and your second at 6th (also counting as level 3). both would start to scale from level 7 onwards (you'd hit magus CL4, bumping he arcanist one via the exploit, and so on).

at the end of PFS you'd have both swords at level 10 advancement, which isnt half bad, though i'm unsure how getting two alertness feats would work. tack on magical knack (magus) and you cast at magus CL-1.

with the wand wielder and wand mastery arcana, you could use the weaponwand spell to insert a wand of frigid touch (or whatever the one that gives you lots of little hits per spell) that works of of your CL and can be used as part of spell combat (say you used weaponwand on your off-hand blade, it now counts as you having a wand in that hand for wand wielder)

main issue is your crappy BAB (+8 at level 13, +13 at level 20) making you heavily reliant on buff spells or arcane accuracy to stay afloat.


Speaking as a GM myself, I would allow dual black blades , depending on circumstances.
I would also suggest simply taking one class that grants a black blade rather than two, And to give you two blades, I would split the Black blades abilities/progression the way a Broodmaster Summoners split Eidolons progress.

That is to say, keep the base mental stats, and ego, equal between the two but divide stat boosts, skill ranks, enhancement bonus and arcane pool between the two.


Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

Speaking as a GM myself, I would allow dual black blades , depending on circumstances.

I would also suggest simply taking one class that grants a black blade rather than two, And to give you two blades, I would split the Black blades abilities/progression the way a Broodmaster Summoners split Eidolons progress.

That is to say, keep the base mental stats, and ego, equal between the two but divide stat boosts, skill ranks, enhancement bonus and arcane pool between the two.

That's a good idea. How about an option, instead of having a single 1-h slashing weapon, rapier, or sword-cane, you can have a pair of light slashing weapons or shortsword.


I think AndIMustMask has you best option. I would let Natan's idea work as GM but the benefit of two separate blades is that they will each have their own pool and abilities. Two level 17 blades will will be quite nice.

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