ohako |
I'm looking for feats that help with positioning, help with flanking, help enable more and better chances for sneak attack, help with putting a rogue in the right place at the right time.
Some suggestions already
Improved Initiative
Shadow Strike
Improved Feint
Step Up (I don't like the chain because Following Step is so weird)
Nimble Moves
Friendly Switch - This one is from Seekers of Secrets, and it lets you 5-foot step into an ally's square (as long as the ally switches places with you). Perfect for tight fighting conditions.
What others would you suggest?
Zathyr |
Depending on your party, the Gang up feat can be amazingly handy. You have to bite down on the Combat Expertise, but that's a useful prereq for other things like Improved Dirty Trick, or Moonlight Stalker.
I don't know about the full tree for Moonlight Stalker, but if you already have Combat Expertise, two more feats for +2 to hit and damage for as long as you're wearing, say, a minor cloak of displacement isn't bad. Moonlight Stalker Master is nice to top it off, but the prerequisites are pretty steep. I'm with Bandw2 on the feinting thing.
Additional Traits could be something to consider as well. There's several good traits out there.
Tcho Tcho |
Not a feat but the scout archetype from the advanced players guide helps a lot, it gives sneak attack in charge and after a move action.
The counterfeit mage archetype from the advanced class guide helps boost your use magic device skill so you can use a wand of invisibility.
The slayer class from the advanced class guide is a better melee rogue.
Edit: the knife master archetype gives d8 sneak attack if you use daggers. You can take more archetypes as long as they don't overlap.
ohako |
the build I'm using is actually a multi-class slayer/scout rogue.
a) I like what the slayer does, but
b) I want more sneak attack
feats to start
1 Improved Initiative
3 Shadow Strike
5 Surprise Follow-Through (pulling Power Attack and Cleave through my first rogue talent and slayer talent)
7 ???
9 ???
11 ???
I'm not exactly looking for build advice in terms of class levels, or even for this specific build. I'm looking for feats that would help any melee rogue do their job better.
Zaythr, Gang Up is the kind of thing I'm looking for. Nice find! Although I can't use it for my specific build (going the Power Attack route, with an Int of 8), it's still something that's up the right alley. That +1 flanking trait is nice too.
...probably one of the feats I'm going to end up taking is Iron Will...
Artanthos |
I'm looking for feats that help with positioning, help with flanking, help enable more and better chances for sneak attack, help with putting a rogue in the right place at the right time.
Some suggestions already
Improved Initiative
Shadow Strike
Improved Feint
Step Up (I don't like the chain because Following Step is so weird)
Nimble Moves
Friendly Switch - This one is from Seekers of Secrets, and it lets you 5-foot step into an ally's square (as long as the ally switches places with you). Perfect for tight fighting conditions.What others would you suggest?
Gang Up
Flanking from any position as long as two allies are threatening your opponent.
thunderbeard |
Improved Two-Weapon Feint, combined with a Mask of Stony Demeanor and the Dueling Sword Adept trait, means you can feint everyone all the time and deal huge gobs of damage.
Also, proficiency with a whip (which can be dual-wielded!) lets you sneak attack from 15 feet away, making it easier to position yourself to flank.
Claxon |
Drop improved Feint and wait till you can get Improved Two Weapon Feint if you are going for two weapon fighting build.
However, a better way to go is to make a strength based rogue who wields a two handed weapon. A moderate dex for AC (14) and more strength will net you more overall damage (when unable to sneak attack), will avoid penalties to hit (with the Rogue's 3/4 BAB is a a good thing), cost less to enhance weapons, and doesn't require spending multiple feats for a couple extra attacks that could be better spent on other feats.
A dex build doesn't work out so well, because you need lots of strength (to help with damage when not sneak attacking) and lots of dex for TWF feats. Or it requires you to get weapon finesse, which restricts you to a small subset of weapons. And then you still need strength to do damage, unless you can figure out something that will work well with slashing grace. Remember light weapons don't qualify for slashing grace, and that one-handed weapons cause a -4 penalty instead of -2 when wielded in your off-hand while TWF.
Zathyr |
Shatter Defenses can work too.
A Sap Adept/Sap Master build could get a lot of mileage out of Enforcer and Shatter Defenses, provided what you're fighting isn't immune to nonlethal damage. There you're back into 3.5 territory - really effective as long as it works, but just too easily negated.
Claxon |
Mask of Stony Demeanor
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 6th
Slot head; Price 500 gp; Weight 4 lbs.
Description
When worn, this mask transforms the wearer's face into a stone statue and its voice into an emotionless monotone. Though it allows the wearer to speak, its facial expressions and voice betray little emotion, granting a +10 competence bonus on Bluff checks made to lie and a +5 competence bonus on Bluff checks made to feint, but also imposes a –5 penalty on Bluff checks made to pass a hidden message.
ohako |
Hmm, okay, so I have my strength rogue concept. Let's see about building this Dex rogue concept, yeah? A two-weapon Dex fighter using a cloak, an aldori dueling sword, and a, oh, I don't know, a dagger in the off-hand. Let's make her a swashbuckler rogue, for the bonus martial weapon and taking extra combat tricks for stuff
race: human or half-elf
traits: dueling cloak adept, inspired (helps with feinting Bluff)
bonus feat: exotic weapon proficiency (aldori dueling sword)
bonus martial weapon: tube arrow shooter
1st Weapon Finesse
2nd combat trick (Two-Weapon Fighting)
3rd Combat Expertise
4th combat trick (Two-Weapon Feint)
5th Gang Up
6th weapon training (Aldori dueling sword)
7th Slashing Grace (Aldori dueling sword)
8th underhanded (deal maximum sneak damage when sneak attacking using the tube arrow shooter)
9th Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10th hunter's surprise (surprise! you're screwed...)
11th Improved Two-Weapon Feint
12th opportunist? offensive defense?
the basic routine is that you feint with the sword, then sneak attack like crazy with your other 3 attacks, plus you've got Gang Up and underhanded for more nasty tricks. this is pretty nice, I must say, although the feat list is super-tight. Let's see about stats
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 12
That's not bad. Get some light armor on that, maybe boost Cha with a headband to be underhanded twice a day. Plus a human gets 10 skills a level is nice. Get your Dex to attacks, AC, damage, Initiative, etc.
The Maw |
when i did my rogue, i went knife master. Then since you are going too have high dex, weapon finesse and two weapon fighting. More attacks=more chances too do damage. Also, if you have another high dex/stealth member, may i sugest Stealth Synergy. It drove our GM crazy. We did a three man, all stealth party for a crimson crown campaign. Knife master Rogue, by the end i was doing 1d4+13D8 damage per hit, with six attacks.
Zathyr |
[...]
1st Weapon Finesse
2nd combat trick (Two-Weapon Fighting)
3rd Combat Expertise
4th combat trick (Two-Weapon Feint)
[...]
A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once. You could, however, grab the Finesse Rogue talent for weapon finesse. Makes level 1 rougher, but it's only level 1.
ohako |
ohako wrote:A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once. You could, however, grab the Finesse Rogue talent for weapon finesse. Makes level 1 rougher, but it's only level 1.[...]
1st Weapon Finesse
2nd combat trick (Two-Weapon Fighting)
3rd Combat Expertise
4th combat trick (Two-Weapon Feint)
[...]
Swashbuckler
A paragon of mobile swordplay, the swashbuckler is a rogue who focuses almost exclusively on honing her skill at arms and perfecting daring acrobatic moves and elaborate flourishes that border on performance.
Martial Training (Ex): At 1st level, the swashbuckler may select one martial weapon to add to her list of weapon proficiencies. In addition, she may take the combat trick rogue talent up to two times. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Daring (Ex): At 3rd level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 morale bonus on Acrobatics checks and saving throws against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every 3 levels beyond 3rd. This ability replaces trap sense.[/b]
Nope!
Actually, a couple of edits to that build
a) go half-elf. then your traits can be Dueling Cloak Adept and Elven Reflexes (and you don't really need Improved Initiative, which you're not going to ge anyway)
b) tactics-wise, take the scout archetype as well. Then when you move (and sneak attack), you use Combat Expertise, and when you don't move (and sneak attack via a feint), you use Two-Weapon Fighting (you'll still get a +1 to AC if your feint goes off)
Now I have to go gin up that Shatter Defenses build using the trait that gets you proficiency with an earthbreaker. hmm....
ohako |
Okay, here's a human rogue who tries to abuse Shatter Defenses, all while being ~~scary~~
race: human
traits: Shoanti Tattoo, Veteran of Battle
stats: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
class thug/scout rogue
feats
human bonus: Bludgeoner
1st: Enforcer
rogue 2: minor magic (acid splash)
3rd Sap Adept
rogue 4: major magic (vanish)
5th: Sap Master
rogue 6: weapon training (earthbreaker)
7th Intimidating Prowess
rogue 8: weapon trick (Dazzling Display)
9th: Shatter Defenses
rogue 10: hunter's surprise (again!)
11th: ??I dunno, Improved Critical (earthbreaker)??
rogue 12: skill mastery (probably Acrobatics, Intimidate, and two others)
If you don't beat someone to death doing nonlethal damage using an earthbreaker, then you either shake them for a whole combat, or inflict the frightened condition a ton of times, or just pull of Shatter Defenses a whole lot.
Hmm, I should make a 'ohako's guide to the melee rogue' or some such. That'll be fun.
River Shadowhand |
Suggestions to improve my current Ninja build I'm working on?
------
Race: Half-Orc
Stats: Str: 16, Dex: 14, Con: 14, Int: 10, Wis: 10, Cha: 14
1) Ninja/Scout 1: Skill Focus: Stealth
2) Ninja/Scout 2: Wall Climber (ninja)
3) Ninja/Scout 3: Dodge
4) Ninja/Scout 4: Vanishing Trick (ninja), +1 STR
5) Ninja/Scout 5: Mobility, +1/6 rogue talent (Half-Orc FCB)
6) Ninja/Scout 6: Combat Trick: Spring Attack (ninja), +2/6 rogue talent
7) Ninja/Scout 7: Hellcat Stealth, +3/6 rogue talent
8) Ninja/Scout 8: Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense (ninja), +1 STR, +4/6 rogue talent
9) Ninja/Scout 9: Dampen Presence, +5/6 rogue talent
10) Ninja/Scout 10: Invisible Blade (ninja), +6/6 rogue talent, Extra Rogue Talent: Evasion (FCB)
11) Ninja/Scout 11: Extra Rogue Talent: Opportunist
Weapon: katana, two-handed.
River Shadowhand |
It's called a slayer
Character is already 3rd level and just hit enough xp for 4th. So suggestions for Ninja would be better (plus I don't want to buy another dang book, I already own like 12).
Marroar Gellantara |
Marroar Gellantara wrote:It's called a slayerCharacter is already 3rd level and just hit enough xp for 4th. So suggestions for Ninja would be better (plus I don't want to buy another dang book, I already own like 12).
If you can retrain to ninja, you can retrain to slayer.
Unless this is for PFS, you don't need to own the book.