Two-Handed Fighter's Backswing ability vs. Flurry of Blow


Rules Questions

Sczarni

Hi everyone! This is a rule question and I need a confident answer so that I'll be PFS legal.

In regard to Strenght bonus added to damage, does the Two-Handed Fighter's Backswing ability trump the Flurry of Blow limitation?

The Backswing ability says:

''Backswing (Ex)

At 7th level, when a two-handed fighter makes a full-attack with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for all attacks after the first.
This ability replaces Armor Training 2.''

The FoB says:

''A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.''

Please be polite if you disagree.


I say yes, FoB says the basic, you do 1. Backswing is modding the specific attacks after the first. Otherwise I feel that you'd have to rule that the Dragon Style's 1.5 str on the first hit a round wouldn't count either for a flurry.


Unlike Dragon Style, the intent of Backswing is to improve the strength multiplier for wielding a weapon two-handed. The intent of Flurry of Blows is that wielding a weapon two-handed (or off-hand) has no bearing on the strength multiplier to damage. As such, I'd say you gain no benefit from backswing during a flurry.


Thing is, your view of intent is different than mine. Flurry of blows is your making attacks so fast you can't put so much power into them, but backswing teaches you how to use the momentum you have to power your swings even more.

And still, how you view intent is all well and good, but he's asking for a solid rules answer. So yes intent is important, but having text or rules to help is nice too. I'm not seeing things in the rules that would stop it. If dragon style can mod the unarmed attack to do more in a flurry, I don't see any rule or text to indicate that the backswing would be treated differently.

I'm curious though to hear your intent of dragon Style, if it's not to improve the strength multiplier for the first punch a round.

Sczarni

I believe Rhatahema thought of Dragon Ferocity that makes you add two times you strenght mod to your unarmed strike damaged.

Still, the specific trumphes the general in this game, and Backswing seems pretty much the most specific of these abilities.

For me, it's pretty clear that Backswing applies on the FoB if I wield a two-handed weapon such as a sansetsukon (a monk two-handed weapon). For the first strike, I'd still have a 1x Strength mod, but on the other ones I'd have a x2 mod.

This is what I believe is RAW. Heck, a legalese reading would mean that I add twice my Strength on top of my 1.5 modifier, since it does not call out that it replaces the 1.5 modifier.


IIRC flurry of blows is a specific full round action, and backswing references full attacks. There is really no ruling on this since the two were likely not thought of as interacting. That leaves it up to the GM.


Caïen wrote:
This is what I believe is RAW. Heck, a legalese reading would mean that I add twice my Strength on top of my 1.5 modifier, since it does not call out that it replaces the 1.5 modifier.

Which is why I'm focusing on intent. The rules as written in this case create a conflict. One ability states your damage bonus becomes one value, the other ability states it becomes another. They're equally specific class features that modify a general rule in an incompatible way, and nothing implies one is applied before the other. Backswing essentially improves a benefit that flurry negates (the additional strength multiplier to damage for wielding a weapon two-handed). Backswing is written to bring your modifier from 1.5x to 2x, not 1x to 2x. I think it's a fair interpretation to say they don't mix. More generously, you might say that it adds +50% on your strength modifier to damage when wielding a weapon two-handed(which is how I'd have worded it, personally)

Dragon Style wrote:
Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.

This one is a bit easier. The strength bonus to damage has no bearing on handedness, which is mainly what flurry is concerned with.

@Wraithstrike: Flurry of blows states that it's a full-attack action.


Rhatahema wrote:


@Wraithstrike: Flurry of blows states that it's a full-attack action.

ok. I would just rule whichever one works out mathmatically for the player as being dominant. If someone pickup up dragonstyle I would allow one OR the other to work, but I would let the player know there is no way to combine both.


Rhatahema wrote:
This one is a bit easier. The strength bonus to damage has no bearing on handedness, which is mainly what flurry is concerned with.

Why do you say flurry is primarily concerned with handedness? A monk using a two-handed still gets power attack at the higher rate. But it seems to me you're saying that a flurry is wanting to remove handedness.

To me it doesn't really matter. I feel as long as dragon style would apply to a flurry then backswing should. I feel the wording is the same. (on first attack use 1.5 to on non-first attacks use 2. I feel that's the same when it deals with flurry interactions) So I feel that anything that lets dragon style work but not backswing would have some serious text and rules needed to support that. Otherwise it's just them ruling their opinion of "flavor"


Chess Pwn wrote:
Rhatahema wrote:
This one is a bit easier. The strength bonus to damage has no bearing on handedness, which is mainly what flurry is concerned with.
Why do you say flurry is primarily concerned with handedness? A monk using a two-handed still gets power attack at the higher rate. But it seems to me you're saying that a flurry is wanting to remove handedness.

No, what I meant to say was that the way in which flurry alters your strength modifier to damage is concerned primarily with handedness. I agree power attack and all that should work fine.

Quote:
To me it doesn't really matter. I feel as long as dragon style would apply to a flurry then backswing should. I feel the wording is the same. (on first attack use 1.5 to on non-first attacks use 2. I feel that's the same when it deals with flurry interactions) So I feel that anything that lets dragon style work but not backswing would have some serious text and rules needed to support that. Otherwise it's just them ruling their opinion of "flavor"

Well, I guess you're right. I'm reading between the lines a bit. As Caïen pointed out, by a strict reading, backswing adds a flat 2x your strength modifier to damage on top of everything else. But we know that wasn't the intent, so we mentally revise it. You're reading it as "add 2x your strength modifier to damage instead of whatever strength modifier to damage you would otherwise apply." I'm reading it as "Increase the multiplier for wielding a weapon two-handed from x1.5 to x2." I'm not saying I'm absolutely right about that though.

Part of why Dragon Style is easier is because it's still doing what it was meant to do, even in a flurry. Changing your US damage from x1 to x1.5. Though that feat has a similar problem if, say, your first US in a round is an off-hand attack (not a flurry).

But hey, if you don't agree, I can dig it. Probably not clear enough for Caïen to want to bring it to PFS though.

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