doctor who alert!!


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four thirty est Sunday morning for ABC broadcast.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In Australia.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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There's something deeply ironic about a Moffat-written Doctor Who story about villains who recycle humans over and over again, making plot references to "Girl in the Fireplace."

Sovereign Court

who ?

Sovereign Court

Moffat, the guy responsible about the new Doctor Who series? From 9 on?

Sovereign Court

Thanks for the heads up I forgot Who is back.


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Interesting episode, touched on some points of fan speculation as well

Loved the whole speech about the eyebrows


Slow burner start for the doctor
good input from the 4 'support cast'

Grand Lodge

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Hama wrote:
Moffat, the guy responsible about the new Doctor Who series? From 9 on?

Moffat's role as Showrunner and All Highest began with 11. He did however do a considerable amount of writing since the beginning.


In the UK we had a repeat last week of the last (regeneration) episode from last series so that helped in setting up this one which is very much a "dealing with grief and dementia" story. I liked it.

I also liked the reminder from "The Girl in the Fireplace" that the Doctor doesn't always work out why the things that he is involved in are happening - he isn't as omniscient as he is sometimes painted.

Oh, and the broom analogy reminded me of Granny Weatherwax!


I liked that the Capaldi Doctor seems to be far far more snarky and abrasive than previous doctors. Especially since I thought Matt Smith's Doctor trended towards goofy at times

Also, for people who are far far more knowledgeable about Who, what about the last scene:

spoiler:

Assuming that the doctor's stalkerish "girlfriend" is the big bad this season, who/what is she? One site speculated that "Missy" = "Mistress" = The Master, while my immediate thoughts last night went to The Rani. I also heard people suggest Romana?

Thoughts?


Spoiler:
Or River Song... although that would be wife wouldn't it? Although the master did give his ring to that girl didn't he? Now I wonder about it. Is this some twisted thing the master is doing to repopulate the time lords?


In short, I like Capaldi, whose new incarnation had echoes of both Bakers' regenerations. I disliked the story, the Victorian trio is terrible, especially Strax (who is an insult to everything Sontaran), and the dino was entirely pointless and stupid.

Moffat should let someone else direct the series. He can write some damn good stand-alone episodes but has proven to be bad at directing the entire show. They should go back to an almost purely episodic format with none of this 'big bad of the season'. Arcs have been done somewhat successfully earlier, most notably Seven's chessmaster one, but the recent ones have just been a disappointment. They must stop having universe-ending threats as the climax of every regeneration, much less every season.

I want to see more of Capaldi and hope they can do something good with the character. I don't want more Moffat nonsense with angels and impossible girls and such stuff.

The Exchange

Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

They must stop having universe-ending threats as the climax of every regeneration, much less every season.

Umm, this is Doctor Who. Universe ending threats are pretty much normal. They could happen in several episodes of the same season. Every single Dalek episode, for example. Even if the entire universe is not at stake, saving the human race, or entire planets, is just what the show is about. There are many smaller stories, but "save the world" type stories are very common.

The problem with Mofat is that he builds his story arcs in a way that (badly) utilizes time travel, is usually very Doctor-centric, and never makes any sense whatsoever. Additionally, he has too much of a preference for deleting consequences - characters keep getting killed and being brought back to life, and any lasting harm is eventually fixed with time travel or some other trick. The result is large, stupid, convoluted stories that never matter and always get deleted before the next season starts.


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Spoiler:
Also Clara made no sense. Most other companions might be thrown for such a loop by this reincarnation but Clara the Impossible Girl has seen ALL the doctors reincarnations as part of her story... this one shouldn't affect her so much.


Aranna wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

yeah that one got me too.

Spoiler:
She's seen all of it and even had to deal with three of them at once. She knows this happens. He even explained the whole thing to her back on Trenzalor. The only really explanation I can grasp for it, is that she did indeed see him as "her boyfriend" and is upset at loosing cute young playful Doctor, for an older less lovable version.

at least she's over it now

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aranna wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Actually Not even Clara had seen ALL of the Doctor's incarnations, the War Doctor after all was completely unknown to her and so were any of the others that exist past the time she threw herself into the Doctor's squiggly. Her infinite selves exist only between that moment on Trensalore and the First Doctor's exodus from Gallifrey. Everything after that moment on Future Trensalore is new ground for her.


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Moffat's first season as show runner wasn't bad, and his second season had some good moments, but overall I wasn't happy with large doses of last season. Especially the enormous retcon of the Doctor not really destroying Gallifrey, or everything with the Trenzalore siege and resolution. The former took one of the most dramatic backstory elements of NuWho and shot it in the face.

Grand Lodge

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MMCJawa wrote:
Moffat's first season as show runner wasn't bad, and his second season had some good moments, but overall I wasn't happy with large doses of last season. Especially the enormous retcon of the Doctor not really destroying Gallifrey, or everything with the Trenzalore siege and resolution. The former took one of the most dramatic backstory elements of NuWho and shot it in the face.

Retcons for another series are something to worry about. With Dr. Who it's stock in trade!

And to be honest, it wasn't a retcon... for the bulk of the universe, things happened exactly as they first appeared, what you see as a retcon, I see as a peeling away at another layer of the cosmic onion. The 50th anniversary was by far the best Multi-Doctor episode ever made. And it was a great homage to the original Three Doctors.


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Acting was good, writing was...meh. Moffat's long past due for being put out to pasture, or we're just going to get more badly mangled recycled plots.

I'd probably have enjoyed the 50th Special more if Moffat hadn't been such an ass to several of the older Doctors, including getting a couple of shots in on Eccleston.


LazarX wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
Moffat's first season as show runner wasn't bad, and his second season had some good moments, but overall I wasn't happy with large doses of last season. Especially the enormous retcon of the Doctor not really destroying Gallifrey, or everything with the Trenzalore siege and resolution. The former took one of the most dramatic backstory elements of NuWho and shot it in the face.

Retcons for another series are something to worry about. With Dr. Who it's stock in trade!

And to be honest, it wasn't a retcon... for the bulk of the universe, things happened exactly as they first appeared, what you see as a retcon, I see as a peeling away at another layer of the cosmic onion. The 50th anniversary was by far the best Multi-Doctor episode ever made. And it was a great homage to the original Three Doctors.

A good chunk of the core audience, including me, started with New Who. I know all my friends did, and none of us were terribly happy with that.

While that may not be a huge retcon to you, the "lonely god" was an archetype that drove the last 3 doctors and was an element in practically every episode of New Who. So a "nope, see it didn't really happen!" did not leave us happy.


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I loved Capaldi - reminds me of a cranky Pertwee.

NuWho fans - need to get used to retcons, continuity faults and lies because that is the way it is and what I love about the show.

I would be very happy if a lot of "fans" rage quit show - then it would be my show again and I wouldn't have to listen to the butt hurt whiny fans cry about it all the time.

It's a very selfish attitude I know, but I loved it as it was and I like it as it is.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
JonGarrett wrote:

Acting was good, writing was...meh. Moffat's long past due for being put out to pasture, or we're just going to get more badly mangled recycled plots.

I'd probably have enjoyed the 50th Special more if Moffat hadn't been such an ass to several of the older Doctors, including getting a couple of shots in on Eccleston.

I don't see any real digs being made on Eccleston, If you're taking the War Doctor's closing quip about his ears.... that's par for the course. As to the older Doctors, I saw nothing but homages all around.


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I like the Capaldi Doctor. Breath of fresh air after Smith, who was fine for a season or two but after, what, 4 (5? I lost count with all the YEAR LONG GAPS BETWEEN SEASONS AAAAAA) seasons I was about ready for him to be summarily killed off.

And I like Capaldi's snarkier, dynamic but still kind of restrained performance.

The story was also, I think, my favorite of the NuWho introductions. I thought Eccleston's was meh, Tennant's was forgettable (though I loved the Tennant Doctor for the most part), and Smith's was just...odd and not very entertaining.

But this one, while not one of the best stories overall by any means, was at least of about average quality, with some good acting.

I also like that the majority of the episode was basically "counseling".

Clara was the audience stand-in. The show was telling all those Smith fangirls and "I don't want an OLD Doctor, ewwww" naysayers to get the f!+* over it, he's still the Doctor and he's still awesome and the change has happened whether you like it or not.


Rynjin wrote:

I also like that the majority of the episode was basically "counseling".

Clara was the audience stand-in. The show was telling all those Smith fangirls and "I don't want an OLD Doctor, ewwww" naysayers to get the f#~@ over it, he's still the Doctor and he's still awesome and the change has happened whether you like it or not.

I like Clara more now because of it, shows she is human not just a plot device.


LazarX wrote:
Aranna wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Actually Not even Clara had seen ALL of the Doctor's incarnations, the War Doctor after all was completely unknown to her and so were any of the others that exist past the time she threw herself into the Doctor's squiggly. Her infinite selves exist only between that moment on Trensalore and the First Doctor's exodus from Gallifrey. Everything after that moment on Future Trensalore is new ground for her.

It's not that she would have seen this regeneration but rather that she has seen enough regenerations to know they don't always go smoothly.


LazarX wrote:
JonGarrett wrote:

Acting was good, writing was...meh. Moffat's long past due for being put out to pasture, or we're just going to get more badly mangled recycled plots.

I'd probably have enjoyed the 50th Special more if Moffat hadn't been such an ass to several of the older Doctors, including getting a couple of shots in on Eccleston.

I don't see any real digs being made on Eccleston, If you're taking the War Doctor's closing quip about his ears.... that's par for the course. As to the older Doctors, I saw nothing but homages all around.

If you watch any of the original multi Doctor stories they call each other far worse and spend a lot of time bickering.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The Three Doctors
The Five Doctors
The Two Doctors
The Day of the Doctor

When they meet, each Doctor thinks he is better than a previous or later Doctor. They seem to suffer from a severe case of sibling rivalry. But they always show respect to the First Doctor.


I remember 2 and 3 being particularly harsh with each other.


Aranna wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Aranna wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Actually Not even Clara had seen ALL of the Doctor's incarnations, the War Doctor after all was completely unknown to her and so were any of the others that exist past the time she threw herself into the Doctor's squiggly. Her infinite selves exist only between that moment on Trensalore and the First Doctor's exodus from Gallifrey. Everything after that moment on Future Trensalore is new ground for her.
It's not that she would have seen this regeneration but rather that she has seen enough regenerations to know they don't always go smoothly.

Clara has seen all of the Doctors incarnations so far but she has never experienced the Doctor regenerate, big difference there.


GM Xabulba wrote:
Aranna wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Aranna wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Actually Not even Clara had seen ALL of the Doctor's incarnations, the War Doctor after all was completely unknown to her and so were any of the others that exist past the time she threw herself into the Doctor's squiggly. Her infinite selves exist only between that moment on Trensalore and the First Doctor's exodus from Gallifrey. Everything after that moment on Future Trensalore is new ground for her.
It's not that she would have seen this regeneration but rather that she has seen enough regenerations to know they don't always go smoothly.
Clara has seen all of the Doctors incarnations so far but she has never experienced the Doctor regenerate, big difference there.

In the 50th Special when she meets the other doctors, she has to ask that they are in fact the Doctor. When Smith's Doctor asks if she remembers meeting them, her response is a tentative "Kinda" so its not like she has this incredible recall of all the times she met the other Doctor's...

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Charles Scholz wrote:

The Three Doctors

The Five Doctors
The Two Doctors
The Day of the Doctor

When they meet, each Doctor thinks he is better than a previous or later Doctor. They seem to suffer from a severe case of sibling rivalry. But they always show respect to the First Doctor.

Forgot Time Crash

The Three Doctors
The Five Doctors
The Two Doctors
Time Crash
The Day of the Doctor

I hope there is a cross-Doctor meeting during the Capaldi era. I would love to see him and Paul McGann team up, maybe for a 2 parter.


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I miss the Sylvester McCoy/Sophie Aldred era, when there was some depth and complexity to how the Doctor and his companion interacted...


That said, Peter Capaldi seems like he might bring some gravitas to the role. And having sat on the sidelines and watched everyone else get all the action in Musketeers he actually got in on some horse-riding last night (unless it was a stuntman double, of course)...

The Exchange

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Greylurker wrote:
Aranna wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

yeah that one got me too.

** spoiler omitted **

at least she's over it now

Spoiler:

Yup, Clara's issues with the regeneration were nonsensical, and contradicted major plot points from the previous 2 - 3 episodes. Which brings us back to two major failings of Moffat -

1) Nothing never has any consequences. So what if Clara saw all the Doctors, that doesn't mean she should know about regenerations or anything.

2) Clara is not a character, she's a pretty face. Honestly, she just doesn't have any sort of consistent behavior pattern. Her personal life changes from episode to episode without a mention (she's a full time nanny to those kids? she's a teacher? what's with her family that suddenly appeared for one episode and vanished?). She just does whatever the hack the current episode needs the Doctor's companion to do.


sometimes i dont understand the complainging about Moffat. I loved the 50th anniversary episode. Somehow the convinced Tom Baker to come back to Dr Who and to see him in an episode again was beyond expectations!

The show is more popular than ever. Its not water cooler talk like Walking Dead or Game of thrones but im running into more and more people who have dr who merchandise and like the show. the other night there was a show after that interviewed some of cast etc similiar to Talking Dead (same host) and that was great!

Now dont love everything hes done but i understand why hes done it. Theres been less depth to the show as i believe they tried to appeal to casual fans/bandwagon fans. they need quick stories with lots of flash to boost ratings especially a younger audience. It does shock me though that they didnt go young this time

The Exchange

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wicked cool wrote:

sometimes i dont understand the complainging about Moffat.

Most of the issues boil down to two things:

1) Moffat's stories and characters are inconsistent, nonsensical and overall fail to deliver on many aspects of the show that appealed to people who started watching before his time.

2) Rampant, unabashed, unapologetic sexism that's so common that it gets in the way.

Shadow Lodge

Lord Snow wrote:
The problem with Mofat is that he builds his story arcs in a way that (badly) utilizes time travel

Disagree. And at least he actually uses time-travel. The overwhelming majority of Who, both New and Classic, simply has the Doctor park the TARDIS, have his adventure, and only step back into the TARDIS to go to the next adventure.

The Exchange

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Kthulhu wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
The problem with Mofat is that he builds his story arcs in a way that (badly) utilizes time travel
Disagree. And at least he actually uses time-travel. The overwhelming majority of Who, both New and Classic, simply has the Doctor park the TARDIS, have his adventure, and only step back into the TARDIS to go to the next adventure.

It's not that I'm against playing the time travel card in general, it's that the way Moffat uses it has so far been horrendous, except for a couple of places where it was really good. We are not going to be able to convince each other if it was good or not, but I'm just going to say that I consider it to be bad because even in Doctor Who standards, there are only so many plot holes one can accept. Additionally, using time travel to delete the repercussions of earlier events is a story device that got old fast and is way overused.


Lord Snow wrote:
Greylurker wrote:
Aranna wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

yeah that one got me too.

** spoiler omitted **

at least she's over it now

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

The problem Clara was having was completely tangential to her seeing the Doctor regenerate multiple times.

She had seen him regenerate, but had never really EXPERIENCED it before. The attitude changes, all the weird mannerisms he suddenly had, or no longer had, she'd never had a good, up close face full of "her" Doctor suddenly becoming a different person.

It's kind of like having a loved one die. Maybe you've seen it before, or on TV. It still hurts when it happens.

There are a lot of valid complaints about Moffat's writing. IMO this is not one of them.

Sovereign Court

The talent is all there as usual with Who. Though the storyline was kind of boring and there was some horrendus use of green screen going on. Rather underwhelming but all my favorite doctors had pretty boring intros with exception of Smith. Guess we can see where this goes.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The 8th Dwarf wrote:


If you watch any of the original multi Doctor stories they call each other far worse and spend a lot of time bickering.

Pertwee and Troughton were notorious for continuing their "rivalry" at fan conventions.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
daemonprince wrote:


Clara has seen all of the Doctors incarnations so far but she has never experienced the Doctor regenerate, big difference there.
In the 50th Special when she meets the other doctors, she has to ask that they are in fact the Doctor. When Smith's Doctor asks if she remembers meeting them, her response is a tentative "Kinda" so its not like she has this incredible recall of all the times she met the other Doctor's...

If you were split into a million separate incarnations, scattered across The Doctor's timeline, and hastily put back together again, I'd imagine anyone would have problems trying to recall all of that.

Rory Williams spent two thousand years as an Auton Duplicate. He maintained his sanity by suppressing most of those memories most of the time.

The Exchange

Rynjin wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
Greylurker wrote:
Aranna wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

yeah that one got me too.

** spoiler omitted **

at least she's over it now

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

They could have played it the way you described it and it would be better (while still not making a lot of sense, just some bare minimum), but that wasn't at all the way I saw it. Clara *really* seemed to take it hard that the Doctor looks old now, which is ridiculous given what she knows. Let's just say that had you watched this episode without prior knowledge of what came before it, you would never guess that Clara has ever seen another version of the Doctor or knew of his regeneration ability and how it works. Maybe she mentioned once that she did see it or something, but that wasn't the way she was acting the rest of the time.


Aranna wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

She reminded me of the woman from the Demon's run episode.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
LazarX wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:


If you watch any of the original multi Doctor stories they call each other far worse and spend a lot of time bickering.

Pertwee and Troughton were notorious for continuing their "rivalry" at fan conventions.

Troughton and Pertwee started the rivalry at the conventions as a joke. I think it started with a water gun fight and escelated from there. When it came time to do The Three Doctors, the writers wrote that rivalry into the script.


I hear that many viewers were shocked and offended by the presence of--brace for it--kissing being depicted on the show. "Grossly sexual and unsuitable for family viewing" was one typical complaint.

'Cuz, y'know, cooties.

Sovereign Court

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Calybos1 wrote:

I hear that many viewers were shocked and offended by the presence of--brace for it--kissing being depicted on the show. "Grossly sexual and unsuitable for family viewing" was one typical complaint.

'Cuz, y'know, cooties.

Oh you should have heard them when Captain Jack was on the show.


Quick question from the first episode, which overall I liked a lot.

Spoiler:

What kind of dinosaur was that? The T-Rex is big, but it doesn't have a mouth that could swallow the TARDIS does it?


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It's a Dramaticlicenceasaur....

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