That's...a tricky thing to prove. I tend to agree with you (as noted above) but there's enough other stuff they sell, and in such a format that it's very difficult to prove that.
You're saying it's plausible that WW2 era Nazi's wore:
- modern style baseball caps
- modern style t-shirts
- modern style work shirts
Is this what you're claiming? That such a thing is even POSSIBLE?
Sure. But it's not quite that clear cut. They don't, at a glance, look like Nazis, and even at a second glance, they have a plausible excuse for their Nazi stuff so it's tricky to accuse them of actual malfeasance even then.
Besides GenCon is much closer to a business than a private residence, which makes the rules on what they're permitted to do somewhat different. They can refuse service, but to do so without getting sued they pretty much need a plausible reason.
Go ahead, give me the "plausible excuse" for Nazi fetish porn. I really am interested in what the "historical significance" of Nazi fetish porn that was produced in the 2000's is.
People have to apply to be vendors at GenCon. Complaints have been issued to the powers that be at GenCon (both in 2012 and 2013). Their application was approved for 2014. Space on the convention floor is expensive, there are a lot of vendors who would pay for that space, so it's not like GenCon would have lost out by not approving Belle and Blade. Someone else would have purchased that space. By giving it to them, they are saying "It's okay to sell Nazi fetish porn here."
Just curious, do we need to go through the step of proving that Nazis are racists?
If someone here thinks Nazis aren't racists, please speak up.
Uh...if nobody complains, exactly how are the people who organize Gencon supposed to know?
and
Technically true...but Gencon has a lot of businesses renting floor space. How are they to know this specific one is so much worse than the others if nobody speaks up?
How bout they walk the floor at their own damn event? Are you seriously implying that in 10 years of this company running a booth at gencon that not one single solitary event coordinator/volunteer has just happened to stroll by their booth? Not once? Really?
Besides GenCon is much closer to a business than a private residence, which makes the rules on what they're permitted to do somewhat different. They can refuse service, but to do so without getting sued they pretty much need a plausible reason.
Business have free right of association just lie individuals do. They could just decide to not renew the contract. I would be shocked if they had rolling or multi-year contracts and I would be even more shocked if they did have those contracts and they didn't have a "no implication of warranty" clause. Basically, if you don't want your business associated with someone else's, you don't have to.
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You're saying it's plausible that WW2 era Nazi's wore:
- modern style baseball caps
- modern style t-shirts
- modern style work shirtsIs this what you're claiming? That such a thing is even POSSIBLE?
No, I'm claiming they sell similar modern style clothing claiming to be members of the Roman Legions. Or a multitude of other military organizations, often ones with contradictory ideologies, which makes it hard to argue they are advocating any one of them.
Not impossible, mind you, and I even believe as you do that they're advocating it to some degree...but it's hard to prove given the nature of their business.
To reiterate: I am in no way saying these people don't seem to be doing some apologist/fandom stuff in regards to National Socialism. I think they are. However...I'm positive I couldn't prove it in a court of law. They're just a tad bit too subtle for that. Which makes it very possible that Gencon not stepping on them like a bug is a matter of legitimately not having seen the problem.
Go ahead, give me the "plausible excuse" for Nazi fetish porn. I really am interested in what the "historical significance" of Nazi fetish porn that was produced in the 2000's is.
They're a company that sells war movies and memorabilia. Or movies that feature war. Nazi fetish porn is a bit outside their wheelhouse, but not any further than Baron Munchausen.
And I'd really like you to stop harping on the 'fetish porn' bit. It's deeply irrelevant. The important part is the 'Nazi' bit.
People have to apply to be vendors at GenCon. Complaints have been issued to the powers that be at GenCon (both in 2012 and 2013). Their application was approved for 2014. Space on the convention floor is expensive, there are a lot of vendors who would pay for that space, so it's not like GenCon would have lost out by not approving Belle and Blade. Someone else would have purchased that space. By giving it to them, they are saying "It's okay to sell Nazi fetish porn here."
Really? How do you know about these complaints and could you cite some sources? The only complaints I found about them that were actually made to the staff was some stuff about sexist underwear in 2013...and they cut that out when told to. I haven't heard word one from anyone but you about complaints regarding the Nazi stuff. Did you make such complaints personally, and if not would you provide a link to someone who did? Because I haven't seen anyone.
I'm perfectly happy to believe Gencon seriously dropped the ball here. But some evidence to support that theory would be nice.
How bout they walk the floor at their own damn event? Are you seriously implying that in 10 years of this company running a booth at gencon that not one single solitary event coordinator/volunteer has just happened to stroll by their booth? Not once? Really?
I have not seen their Gencon booth...but if it follows the example of their website, the Nazi stuff is only truly apparent if you look closely at precisely what various t-shirts say. No swastikas plastered over everything or full Nazi uniforms or anything as blatant as that. It's certainly there, but not to a casual glance at their site...and presumably not to a similar casual glance at their booth.
Business have free right of association just lie individuals do. They could just decide to not renew the contract. I would be shocked if they had rolling or multi-year contracts and I would be even more shocked if they did have those contracts and they didn't have a "no implication of warranty" clause. Basically, if you don't want your business associated with someone else's, you don't have to.
True, but all this necessitates knowing that these people are anything more racist than they appear to be at a casual glance.
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Just curious, do we need to go through the step of proving that Nazis are racists?
If someone here thinks Nazis aren't racists, please speak up.
For the record, I'm not even arguing that Belle and Blade aren't racists, much less the Nazis (who are obviously the definition of racist).
What I'm arguing is that proving this particular group of people nowadays are racist is actually kinda tricky to do, and that people don't seem to be making very many formal complaints against them (and that last bit I might easily be wrong about, I just haven't seen any evidence of it).
And I'd really like you to stop harping on the 'fetish porn' bit. It's deeply irrelevant. The important part is the 'Nazi' bit.
No, it's fully relevant. Because as you say, they could just be peddling war movies. Triumph of the Will, despicable as it's intention could be, is still a piece of history both as a record and point of perspective.
Pornography made in the 2000's, with people wearing Nazi uniforms has no historical relevance.
If the vendor's only purpose is to be a source of war movies and historical documents, why would they have Nazi fetish porn?
Or women's underwear with sexual innuendo?
Or work shirts with Nazi symbology on them?
Or a t-shirt a U-boat and nazi eagle on the front, with a list of 10 U-boat commanders with the most kills on the back?
Or a t-shirt with a U-boat on the front and a list of ships by tonnage that were sunk on the back?
This is a store that masquerades as historical relevancy. The most damning proof? Nazi fetish porn.
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And I'd really like you to stop harping on the 'fetish porn' bit. It's deeply irrelevant. The important part is the 'Nazi' bit.
No, it's fully relevant. Because as you say, they could just be peddling war movies. Triumph of the Will, despicable as it's intention could be, is still a piece of history both as a record and point of perspective.
Pornography made in the 2000's, with people wearing Nazi uniforms has no historical relevance.
If the vendor's only purpose is to be a source of war movies and historical documents, why would they have Nazi fetish porn?
Because porn sells? Seriously, branching out from war movies to porn isn't exactly the greatest leap ever. It's the Nazi bit that makes the whole thing problematic.
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Now it seems like everyone is just fixating on how many cosplay Nazis there were at GenCon, and whether or not GenCon endorses Nazis, which is sort of a non-starter for a reasonable conversation. (I'm pretty sure it wasn't a majority of the attendees, and that GenCon doesn't; I doubt that's a surprise to anyone reading this.)
If the vendor's only purpose is to be a source of war movies and historical documents, why would they have Nazi fetish porn?Or women's underwear with sexual innuendo?
Or work shirts with Nazi symbology on them?
Or a t-shirt a U-boat and nazi eagle on the front, with a list of 10 U-boat commanders with the most kills on the back?
Or a t-shirt with a U-boat on the front and a list of ships by tonnage that were sunk on the back?
Why? For the same reason vendors at Gen Con also sell anime porn, Starfleet fezzes, fetishy corsets, and vaguely rapey role-playing games like Vampire: the Masquerade - to make a buck catering to the interests of the con-goers even if they drift a bit from the mainstream.
Why? For the same reason vendors at Gen Con also sell anime porn, Starfleet fezzes, fetishy corsets, and vaguely rapey role-playing games like Vampire: the Masquerade - to make a buck catering to the interests of the con-goers even if they drift a bit from the mainstream.
If the vendor's only purpose is to be a source of war movies and historical documents, why would they have Nazi fetish porn?Or women's underwear with sexual innuendo?
Or work shirts with Nazi symbology on them?
Or a t-shirt a U-boat and nazi eagle on the front, with a list of 10 U-boat commanders with the most kills on the back?
Or a t-shirt with a U-boat on the front and a list of ships by tonnage that were sunk on the back?
Hmmm. I agree with you here Bill, but I'd object to the "vaguely rapey" label for games like Vampire. That's all in how people play it, and traditional fantasy games can be played like that too, just as easily.
But yes, it's in the interests of vendors to supply what people want to buy. If it's selling, they're going to want to keep providing it for people, because dolla dolla bill y'all.
Because porn sells? Seriously, branching out from war movies to porn isn't exactly the greatest leap ever. It's the Nazi bit that makes the whole thing problematic.
And I'd really like you to stop harping on the 'fetish porn' bit. It's deeply irrelevant. The important part is the 'Nazi' bit.
No, it's fully relevant. Because as you say, they could just be peddling war movies. Triumph of the Will, despicable as it's intention could be, is still a piece of history both as a record and point of perspective.
Pornography made in the 2000's, with people wearing Nazi uniforms has no historical relevance.
If the vendor's only purpose is to be a source of war movies and historical documents, why would they have Nazi fetish porn?
Also, this. My god does it ever sell. I can't imagine wanting to watch Nazi themed porn, but I guess taboo things like that tend to have a fan base, even if the rest of us find it distasteful.
Also, this. My god does it ever sell. I can't imagine wanting to watch Nazi themed porn, but I guess taboo things like that tend to have a fan base, even if the rest of us find it distasteful.Because porn sells? Seriously, branching out from war movies to porn isn't exactly the greatest leap ever. It's the Nazi bit that makes the whole thing problematic.
And I'd really like you to stop harping on the 'fetish porn' bit. It's deeply irrelevant. The important part is the 'Nazi' bit.
No, it's fully relevant. Because as you say, they could just be peddling war movies. Triumph of the Will, despicable as it's intention could be, is still a piece of history both as a record and point of perspective.
Pornography made in the 2000's, with people wearing Nazi uniforms has no historical relevance.
If the vendor's only purpose is to be a source of war movies and historical documents, why would they have Nazi fetish porn?
Reminds me of an Alexi Sayle bit in the Young Ones
"I mean, they told me while at school, if I got two CSEs, when I left school I’d be head of British Steel. That’s a lot of nonsense, innit? I mean, you look at statistics, right. 83% of top British management have been to a public school and Oxbridge, right? 93% of the BBC have been to a public school and Oxbridge, right? 98% of the KGB have been to a public school and Oxbridge.
All you get from a public school, right — one, you get a top job, right, and two, you get an interest in perverse sexual practises. I mean, that’s why British management’s so inefficient. As soon as they get in the boardroom, they’re all shutting each others’ dicks in the door! “Go on, give it another slam, Sir Michael!” BAM! OW OW OW! “Come on, Sir Geoffrey, let’s play the Panzer commander and the millkmaid, EW EW EW EW! YOO HOO!”
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