Larry Correia cites Pathfinder for diversity in gaming.


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Correia's blog

Yep, just what it says. Correia did a post in response to an article about racism at gencon and gaming in general, and suggested the author should take look at Pathfinder's Iconics.


Who?


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He writes the Monster Hunters series, and a few others.

Shadow Lodge

Very funny =) I like this guy's style.


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Now I have to add Larry Correia to my list of people I'd want to game with...

... and I should probably make sure I'm caught up on my Monster Hunter books before Dragon*Con.

-TimD


Agreed TimD. Have the feeling it would be hilarious.

Sovereign Court

I love how he thoroughly dismantles every instance of racism that other guy's article shows (and it's dripping with racism).

Shadow Lodge

TimD wrote:

Now I have to add Larry Correia to my list of people I'd want to game with...

... and I should probably make sure I'm caught up on my Monster Hunter books before Dragon*Con.

-TimD

One of my players reads them, and highly recommends them (though he says the first can be a bit slow, they improve). I hadn't gotten around to looking into them in more detail, but now....

Shadow Lodge

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Here's a link directly to the article in question. So it doesn't get lost in future updates. It's already a ways down as is =)


Oh, I've read him... bought the first few of his books in a row (and even bought a "loaner copy" of MHI at some point), but I own a bit over 1,500 books, so I sometimes lose track of authors that I need to catch up on or whose books I've loaned out and forgotten about.

His books are good popcorn fiction fun, at least the Monster Hunter stuff (I keep forgetting to pick up his other stuff when I'm book hunting, so I can't speak to it).

-TimD


Thanks Orthos, should have done that myself, and I definitely recommend them. Characters tackling monsters the smart way, with lots and lots of firepower. His writing does improve as the books go on. Monster Hunters International was his first published work, and it does show a little bit.

TimD, yep. Feeling stressed, time to read about nuking the Old One again. ^_^. His Hard Magic series has a neat atmosphere and a very interesting magic system. Plus, Tokugawa is our first antagonist.

Hama, yes!

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

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This man seems awful and dismissive.

Sovereign Court

The one who b~&@#ed about gencon or the one who actually had arguments in his responses?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

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The latter, Larry Correia.

As far as I can tell, his "arguments" are mostly "well I don't feel the same way as you about racial issues, so you're WRONG!"

He seems very angry about how one person wrote an article about feeling underrepresented in their hobby. He's dismissive and inflammatory. Also, as a rule, I don't trust anyone who argues with "dictionary definitions" (especially with complicated and nuanced issues like race and racism), and unironically uses the term "Social Justice Warrior."


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mechaPoet wrote:

The latter, Larry Correia.

As far as I can tell, his "arguments" are mostly "well I don't feel the same way as you about racial issues, so you're WRONG!"

He seems very angry about how one person wrote an article about feeling underrepresented in their hobby. He's dismissive and inflammatory. Also, as a rule, I don't trust anyone who argues with "dictionary definitions" (especially with complicated and nuanced issues like race and racism), and unironically uses the term "Social Justice Warrior."

One person wrote an article highly critical of Gencon without any evidence to back up his position other than I felt buthurt growing up and these people don't understand my pain.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
mechaPoet wrote:

The latter, Larry Correia.

As far as I can tell, his "arguments" are mostly "well I don't feel the same way as you about racial issues, so you're WRONG!"

He seems very angry about how one person wrote an article about feeling underrepresented in their hobby. He's dismissive and inflammatory. Also, as a rule, I don't trust anyone who argues with "dictionary definitions" (especially with complicated and nuanced issues like race and racism), and unironically uses the term "Social Justice Warrior."

Did you actually read his arguments? His arguments had signficant bits of logic in there to back them up more then his beliefs and feelings. Lots of the torg authors points dont stand up to logical scrutiny, since his argument basically boils down to 'There are relatively few minorities at gencon, thus racism'.


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Yeah, the guy who felt "underrepresented" comes off as rather clueless. The sort of social justice guy who's out looking for something to get outraged about. In addition, a lot of his complaints actually sound really patronizing (being mad that the hotel staff were minorities because it made him feel like he'd "stepped into an ugly part of a bygone era, one in which whites were waited upon by minority servants.")

This blogger doesn't seem anti-social justice. He just seems to hate the Kankri sorts of people who try to seem superior by claiming everyone else is racist (except them, of course).

My brother is very much in favor of social justice and very into political correctness. More than me (I still use the r-word sometimes!). He does this without coming across as a tool. If "tor.com" actually cared about the issues it espouses, it would try and do the same.

Sovereign Court

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Actually the guy who wrote the fist article was very racist in that article.

And the guy tore his arguments apart with actual arguments.

I despise social justice warriors.


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Anybody who sees themselves as a Social Justice "Warrior" is of questionable awesomeness. The title belies their real intent--they don't want to educate and hear other points of view, they want to win "battles" and be "righteous".

It's like that one guy said: Seek first to understand before seeking to be understood.


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Did I use "belies" right?

I think I Britta'd it.

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What I could do is go through Correia's arguments and discuss why I think he's wrong on several points and how I think he misunderstands racism.

But what I'm going to do instead is just say that Correia seems needlessly hostile. Again, I think he's very dismissive, and isn't really listening. It seems like the Tor.com article writer didn't feel particularly included at GenCon, and instead of trying to understand why, Correia rails against him and says what he feels doesn't matter.

I'd love to discuss this more, but y'all don't really seem super receptive to it.

@ Kobold Cleaver: I believe you've used "belies" right. I disagree with your interpretation of the SJW, except insofar as I see that term bandied about far more by people using it as a dismissive term than by anyone actually using it as an identifying label.

Sovereign Court

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They just go around looking for stuff to be offended by. Either for themselves, or for other people. The latter are the worst kind of people.


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Yeah, I used "belies" backwards. I meant "gives away".

The author has apparently dealt with a lot of Tor.com articles, and there comes a point where you have to stop trying to understand the mind of someone capable of getting so deliberately offended.

That said, Correia does go over Tor.com's complaints. But the complaints are pretty dumb, so...

Anyways, it's alright if you don't feel you want to have this discussion. I think a lot of people on these forums are quite open to the discussion--many of whom are more PC than myself or Hama and may even take Tor.com's side, though I doubt they'd go that far.


I don't think that many people actually call themselves a 'Social Justice Warrior', I see it used far more often as a disparaging term for people expressing a point of view the writer doesn't like. It's like when people criticise a position for being 'politically correct'. It doesn't really mean anything in itself, it's just trying to be an umbrella term for something the author doesn't like.

To be honest I don't think much of either article, I think the actual situation is a bit more nuanced than either author is making it out to be. The first article does seem to be trying hard to see racism in everything, but the second seems equally keen on implying that it isn't present in the situation at all. I don't think either position is accurate.


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mechaPoet wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Anybody who sees themselves as a Social Justice "Warrior" is of questionable awesomeness. The title belies their real intent--they don't want to educate and hear other points of view, they want to win "battles" and be "righteous".

It's like that one guy said: Seek first to understand before seeking to be understood.

I disagree with your interpretation of the SJW, except insofar as I see that term bandied about far more by people using it as a dismissive term than by anyone actually using it as an identifying label.
As in this case in fact. The Tor writer doesn't use the term in his article. Larry Correia uses it to dismiss him.
Quote:
Did I see unconscious micro-aggressions and invisible privilege? Beats the hell out of me. I’m not a mind reading Social Justice Warrior, constantly perched like a falcon, ready to swoop in to right wrongs.

In other words, I didn't see any racism since I'm white* and it doesn't affect me and I wasn't bothering to look for it: Therefore there isn't any and the non-white person who did see racism is wrong.

Racism doesn't exist until it's blatant enough that white people who aren't paying attention notice it.

Yeah, that's an enlightened attitude.

Edit *Reading a little more closely, Larry is Latino not white, but isn't “easily identifiable” as such.

Sovereign Court

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Except Larry is Latino.

Non-white people working in an establishment as service staff doesn't automatically imply racism, it implies that they work there because it's their job and they applied to work there.
Reasons for that are varied.
People are far more nuanced.
All Larry saw was a bunch of gamers enjoying themselves.
All a person looking for racism saw was racism. And there was probably precious little of it.


Nice to see Paizo mentioned positively, but Larry's article put me right off getting any of his books, and I agree with mechaPoet about the dismissiveness.

Larry claims that the first article was just childhood butthurt?
To me Larry's article comes across as "I am butthurt that you don't like a thing that I like, so I am going to ridicule, disparage, and dismiss everything you said." I've seen that sort of attitude far too often on the -ist side of arguments to want to deal with it elsewhere.

Sovereign Court

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Didn't see any ridicule in his article. Just well argumented answers to BS statements.


But as you say, 'All Larry saw was a bunch of gamers' and 'All a person looking for racism saw was racism'. Would you agree that the truth was almost certainly somewhere in between? That there would likely have been some incidents of racism, while more people were around enjoying themselves?

It's perfectly reasonable to point out a very slanted view that suggests racism is everywhere at a particular place, when your experience is that it isn't present. But it isn't very reasonable or helpful to suggest that the very suggestion that such things may happen is ridiculous. It could have been a much more positive message about Larry not having encountered such things and finding Gencon a positive place, rather than attacking the initial author for his own experiences.

Liberty's Edge

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I quite like Larry Correia's work, and always have (and would note that, when writing books his style is quite a bit different from that presented).

I've never really followed his blog until now, but having looked it over after following the link, he seems a little bit angry and bitter on topics like this one, which comes through in the article as maybe a little mean spirited to people reading it in isolation.

In context, I don't blame him, though. He's conservative politically (whatever that means these days...mostly that he's from a rural area, dislikes big government, and is a big proponent of gun rights, I think in this case) and has been spending a fair amount of time being attacked by certain people more on the left for things he has not actually said or done...or the worst possible interpretations of those he has.

That can happen to people anywhere on the political spectrum if they get famous in the right (or wrong) quarters, which his Hugo nomination and the stuff surrounding it seems to have done for him, and I would imagine is deeply frustrating to deal with. So...he's understandably a little bitter at disingenuous liberal statements* at the moment, and is thus probably harsher than the original article really deserves.

But the original article sure deserves some sort of critique not too dissimilar to this (just maybe a bit less biting). That was some b*+@$@&@. And I say this as someone who firmly believes in institutional racism as a thing, and a real problem in our society. The statement that the people running Gencon are 'tolerant of hate speech' with basically no evidence of that is perilously close to actual actionable slander, and not an acceptable thing to say, just for example.

*Note: Disingenuous conservative statements are also a thing...though probably not a relevant one in this case. Just for the record.


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HerosBackpack wrote:
Nice to see Paizo mentioned positively...

For the record, this was the sole reason for creating the thread. Simple, hey Paizo's been making an effort here, and it's been noticed! That being said, gentlemen continue the discussion. Note that discussions between gentlemen can involve blades, bullets, and blood, so long as it is done with panache

Hama wrote:


Didn't see any ridicule in his article. Just well argumented answers to BS statements.

I thought he ridiculed some ridiculous things rather well, and if we can't ridicule the ridiculous, where are we then?

Deadmanwalking wrote:


That was some b+$!@&@+.

Indeed. There was someone dressed as a nazi. A nazi. On the street. Outside of the convention.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
HerosBackpack wrote:


Larry claims that the first article was just childhood butthurt?
To me Larry's article comes across as "I am butthurt that you don't like a thing that I like.

i think the real issue is both those guys need to see a proctologist, like now! if they're having these issues, especially if its persisted since childhood!


Lloyd Jackson wrote:
HerosBackpack wrote:
Nice to see Paizo mentioned positively...
For the record, this was the sole reason for creating the thread. Simple, hey Paizo's been making an effort here, and it's been noticed! That being said, gentlemen continue the discussion. Note that discussions between gentlemen can involve blades, bullets, and blood, so long as it is done with panache

Though I have the sneaking feeling that if this gentlemen got involved in some of the conversations here about Paizo's support for diversity and their motivations, the SJW line would come right back out, quite possibly directed at some of Paizo's developers.

He seems very dismissive of many of the reasons Paizo has committed to diversity.

Sovereign Court

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[sarcasm]No no, it's not diversity, it's token minority-ism[/sarcasm]


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Rynjin wrote:
Who?

If you are still floating around, I really recommend you check out his book series. There is a lot of comedy in them, and many moments where good tactics and proper usage of firepower trumps supernatural creatures and magic users.

On topic: Was Larry harsh? Well yeah. Was it entirely unwarranted? No. Going around making baseless claims about events is weird. Even if Gencon lacked in minority gamers as a fact, why is that Gencon's fault? Gencon does not deny ticket sales based off ethnicity.

I feel that Larry was angry with this man for basically telling him "the thing you like is terrible and racist! Gencon is badwrong!" without providing him with reasons to validate his opinion. I understand that tabletop and roleplaying gaming companies don't have a gigantic number of minorities, but is that due to a lack of interest, or due to everyone being racist pricks? A.A. George just assumes that it is because people are racist pricks. Could he be right? Yes. Does he accept that there could be another reason? Not based on this article.

Also, I found this paragraph particularly offensive:

A.A. George wrote:
"I’ve been told time and again by gamers, “I don’t see race” as if they were doing me a kindness. This is not enlightenment or progressiveness. It is ignorance. If you do not see race, you do not see me. You do not see my identity, my ethnicity, my history, my people. What you are telling me, when you say “I do not see race,” is that you see everything as the normal default of society: white. In the absence of race and ethnicity, it is only the majority that remains. I am erased."

He brands anyone who doesn't care what race someone is as someone who just sees a white world. As someone who "doesn't see race" and is also very much Tunisian, I do not see a world of white. A.A. George is the one who put those words in my mouth. I just see people.

With this statement, is he expecting everyone who speaks with him to first tell him "Ah! My friend! I see that you are not the same skin color as me. You obviously have a distinct culture different from my own! I recognize this and you are unique to me." Would he tell this to an obviously Irish or Russian person (These "white" people have different cultures than the "white" culture he normally experiences.)

A.A. George's article is very insulting to me, so I can understand why someone else (Larry Correia) might feel insulted enough to write such a response.

Liberty's Edge

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thejeff wrote:

Though I have the sneaking feeling that if this gentlemen got involved in some of the conversations here about Paizo's support for diversity and their motivations, the SJW line would come right back out, quite possibly directed at some of Paizo's developers.

He seems very dismissive of many of the reasons Paizo has committed to diversity.

Based on looking at that blog for several hours...I doubt it. His objection to such things in fiction seems pretty much solely to putting messages or agendas as a higher priority than good, entertaining, writing. Which is not a thing Paizo does.

He might well wind up in an argument with Paizo folks on one topic or another (he seems ignorant about various trans* issues, for example, though not actively mean spirited about it from what I can tell), but the SJW thing? I suspect not.


Rynjin wrote:
Who?

The guy wrote both one of the worst and one of the best books I've read in recent memory. :)

Liberty's Edge

Slaunyeh wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Who?
The guy wrote both one of the worst and one of the best books I've read in recent memory. :)

Now I'm curious which books you're referring to. :)


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Now I'm curious which books you're referring to. :)

Well. His... uhm, what is it called, Monster Hunter International? Was so bad I almost got angry about it. Couldn't finish it.

Meanwhile, Instruments of War was absolutely fantastic.

Shadow Lodge

Slaunyeh wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Now I'm curious which books you're referring to. :)
Well. His... uhm, what is it called, Monster Hunter International? Was so bad I almost got angry about it. Couldn't finish it.

I seem to recall hearing this sentiment before, probably from my friend who recommended the books. Mentioned one really stuck out as horrid compared to the rest.

I'll probably read it anyway, because I'm a completionist like that, unless the very first one doesn't interest me. But that'll probably be a few weeks, after I move, before I pick up more new books. (Which will also give me time to finish my current crop of reading options.)

Liberty's Edge

Orthos wrote:
Slaunyeh wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Now I'm curious which books you're referring to. :)
Well. His... uhm, what is it called, Monster Hunter International? Was so bad I almost got angry about it. Couldn't finish it.

I seem to recall hearing this sentiment before, probably from my friend who recommended the books. Mentioned one really stuck out as horrid compared to the rest.

I'll probably read it anyway, because I'm a completionist like that, unless the very first one doesn't interest me. But that'll probably be a few weeks, after I move, before I pick up more new books. (Which will also give me time to finish my current crop of reading options.)

Monster Hunter International is his first novel, and it shows. I don't feel like it's actively bad (and enjoyed reading it), but it's a bit undirected and takes a while to get going, as well as probably not being quite as well written as his other books in other ways. The sequels are better, IMO, as are his other series.

It's a lot like Storm Front (the first novel of the Dresden Files) in that respect, if you've ever read the Dresden Files.

Sovereign Court

I absolutely love the Dresden Files. If it's not my absolute-favorite book series, it's second only to something by Brandon Sanderson. Definitely in the top five, no matter what.

I actually just found my long-lost copy of Side Jobs this morning while digging through stuff in the garage.

So not so much bad bad bad, just very obviously the first novel and he improves as he goes.

Good to hear.

Liberty's Edge

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Sue The Zombie T-Rex wrote:
I absolutely love the Dresden Files. I actually just found my long-lost copy of Side Jobs this morning while digging through stuff in the garage.

Excellent. *steeples fingers*

For the record, I'm not sure I'd actually compare the two book series directly...they're superficially similar but there are a lot of differences. But the differences specifically between the first book and later ones are pretty similar, IMO.

Maybe a little more pronounced, actually. Since Monster Hunter International came out first in 2007 (self-published), while the sequel didn't arrive until 2010, giving him some serious time to polish his craft.

Sue The Zombie T-Rex wrote:

So not so much bad bad bad, just very obviously the first novel and he improves as he goes.

Good to hear.

That's just my opinion, but yeah. Pretty much.


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The Tor writer comes across as having the right information, but coming to the wrong conclusion.

Yes, gaming does have diversity issues still. But as Correia pointed out, it's more a matter of still spreading from its base to markets where it is all but unknown (I and most of my coworkers are Black, and I know for a fact that for most of them, the only RPGs they have ever seen are the books I bring to read during breaks and slow periods). Is there racism in the gaming community? Sure, but it's pretty much on the individual (i.e.: "That dude/group is/are a(bunch of) jerk(s)."), unconscious (seriously, we DO need more minority casting in Fantasy and Sci-Fi (let's be honest, the lack of color in the future has some disturbing connotations).) and accidental (more " Sorry, didn't realize that." than "Up yours, N-Word!") levels. That can be safely ignored and/or forgiven. There has been more flak in my experience given to women in gaming (admittedly a problem in and of itself) than African Americans. The diversity issue, as far as I can see, is a problem that has been slowly correcting itself where race is concerned. If we want it fixed faster, there are only two ways to do it.

The first is for us, the minority gamers, to go out and get more minorities into gaming. Granted, this can be a daunting task.

The second, and arguably more effective way, is for gaming companies to actually advertise in venues and publications where minorities can see them. Like I said before, 99+% of the black community has no idea what Pathfinder is, and the barest understanding of D&D. Of course, though it would be more effective, I'm not sure by how much.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
It's a lot like Storm Front (the first novel of the Dresden Files) in that respect, if you've ever read the Dresden Files.

I have, and while I think the series generally has improved over the years, with Butcher I mostly took issue with his pacing. With MHI I just couldn't stand reading one more page about the protagonist. Urgh.

It's possible the series gets better, but if you can't get past the first book it's kinda a lost cause. :)

Still. I want to reiterate that Instruments of War is brilliant. Even if you, like me, know/care absolutely nothing about Warmachine.

Liberty's Edge

Slaunyeh wrote:
I have, and while I think the series generally has improved over the years, with Butcher I mostly took issue with his pacing. With MHI I just couldn't stand reading one more page about the protagonist. Urgh.

I obviously disagree, but tastes differ. :)

Slaunyeh wrote:
It's possible the series gets better, but if you can't get past the first book it's kinda a lost cause. :)

This is definitely true, and a good reason not to read the books in that series if you can't.

Slaunyeh wrote:
Still. I want to reiterate that Instruments of War is brilliant. Even if you, like me, know/care absolutely nothing about Warmachine.

I haven't actually read that one, I'll have to do that soon.

Since you really liked some of his non-Monster Hunters work, you should probably give the Grimnoir Chronicles a try. That's the series where the third book got nominated for the Hugo, and a fun and interesting series in a lot of ways.


To me, the protagonist of the Monster Hunter series is part of why I stuck with the books. He is vastly different from me (and different from basically every person I know) in his opinions and attitudes, making him a unique experience for me. I also ended up being a sucker for the type of humor that Larry writes.

Shadow Lodge

I'll probably get the first two, see if I like his style, jump to the second book if I find the first intolerable, and get more if I like it.

Liberty's Edge

Orthos wrote:
I'll probably get the first two, see if I like his style, jump to the second book if I find the first intolerable, and get more if I like it.

Starting with another one of his series is also a viable choice (I think I started with the Grimnoir chronicles, actually).


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Scrubbed. Y'know what? We don't need to have an argument about social justice. You guys have fun talking about novels, and let's all just appreciate Paizo for being hip to the times!

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