What is the official word on re-builds of the Play-Test Warpriest to the ACG Warpriest?


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4/5

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What is the official word on re-builds of the Play-Test Warpriest to the ACG Warpriest?

I'm asking this as I've read through the PFS guide and glanced through a couple of threads and keep seeing different interpretations of it. Anything to a complete re-build allowed (have to keep gear the same) to only allowing changes to powers/abilities that got changed.

Also I'm wondering if the playtest Warpriest can be changed over to a Warpriest Archetype without using the re-training rules?

4/5

As far as I can tell, these are the two relevant pieces of text:

Additional Resources wrote:
Anyone playing the playtest version of one of the ten new base classes must have updated his or her character as of 8/14/14. Updating your character means adjusting only the things that have changed, but not rebuilding the character.
Guide to Organized Play wrote:

Playtests & Errata

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game is a living game, and whether in the form of a playtest [emphasis mine] that varies from its final incarnation, conversion from the 3.5 rules set to the Pathfinder RPG, or an errata or FAQ to the Core Rules, sometimes game elements change in the course of a PC’s career. The following guidelines allow players to update or convert existing characters to use the most current rules. When rebuilding your character in any way, you must describe all changes on your next Chronicle sheet in the Notes section, and your GM must initial that section.
...
If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment.

While I believe some are reading the ACG Additional Resources as the more specific rule to the Guide's general, I believe that the alteration to 'a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score' is the more specific rule and is applicable to the Warpriest due to the removal of Charisma as a feature-dependent ability score.

If that interpretation is correct, you should also be able to apply an archetype as part of your rebuild.

5/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

Matt2VK wrote:
Also I'm wondering if the playtest Warpriest can be changed over to a Warpriest Archetype without using the re-training rules?

There hasn't been any official word to clarify the extent of rebuilds allowed in the case of the ACG release.

You can't take an archetype during a basic beta to release conversion unless the archetype doesn't kick in until a level higher than your character's current warpriest level.

4/5

There has been official word. Although it doesn't match what we were told before the ACG came out.

Additional Resources wrote:

All playtest versions of the ten new base classes from this book are no longer legal for play as of 8/14/14. Anyone playing the playtest version of one of the ten new base classes must have updated his or her character as of 8/14/14. Updating your character means adjusting only the things that have changed, but not rebuilding the character.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

I'm 90% certain you can't apply an Archetype as part of your rebuild, or retroactively apply Favored Class Bonuses for levels you've already obtained.

4/5

I read updating only the things that have changed as you can update them to the current version, and "but not rebuilding" as not getting any rebuilding. I'd love to find out I'm wrong on this though.

Grand Lodge 2/5

David_Bross wrote:
I read updating only the things that have changed as you can update them to the current version, and "but not rebuilding" as not getting any rebuilding. I'd love to find out I'm wrong on this though.

I'd argue that a class feature requiring Charisma being dropped to a different ability is basis enough for rebuilding stats, at the very least (even though it's technically not allowed).

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

claudekennilol wrote:


I'd argue that a class feature requiring Charisma being dropped to a different ability is basis enough for rebuilding stats, at the very least (even though it's technically not allowed).

"Technically not allowed" means "not allowed". Please don't rebuild a character illegally and then play it. If it then hits my table, I'm going to either reject it completely -- go, play Kyra -- or else we can sit and cobble together what your Warpriest would be like if you hadn't thrown in an illegal rebuild.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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The problem, Chris, as evidenced by claudekennilol, and other posters on this forum, is that it isn't clear if a stat rebuild is covered or not.


David_Bross wrote:
I read updating only the things that have changed as you can update them to the current version, and "but not rebuilding" as not getting any rebuilding. I'd love to find out I'm wrong on this though.

I can't say about adding archetypes like what the OP is wondering but per The Guide to Organized Play which Redward quoted above since the Warpriest's class features need for Charisma changed you are allowed a rebuild to your character's current XP maintaining the same equipment.

4/5

And that is why I posted the question.

Sczarni 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Chris Mortika wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:


I'd argue that a class feature requiring Charisma being dropped to a different ability is basis enough for rebuilding stats, at the very least (even though it's technically not allowed).
"Technically not allowed" means "not allowed". Please don't rebuild a character illegally and then play it. If it then hits my table, I'm going to either reject it completely -- go, play Kyra -- or else we can sit and cobble together what your Warpriest would be like if you hadn't thrown in an illegal rebuild.

Well, since we needed to have our characters updated by August 14th, and the best thing I could find was:

Guide to Organized Play wrote:
If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment.

I went ahead and rebuilt my Warpriest, keeping him in theme but mildly modifying his stats, skills, and feats. I was tempted to take Champion of the Faith, but didn't, since I eventually decided that it wasn't quite thematic enough.

I did worry that the word "rebuild" had some kind of unwritten code of conduct attached, but I couldn't find anything that stated otherwise in the Guide. I decided to stay true to my theme, but I also considered rebuilding as Rocket Raccoon and trying to figure out what to do with my full plate and greatsword.

For most of the ACG classes, this isn't a real big issue. So the statement from Additional Resources makes total sense and fits with what's described in the Guide. The Warpriest is going to take another official ruling. (My personal hope is for: Yes, you get to make changes, and the Guide to Organized Play describes how to do it.)

If you sat at my table with a rebuilt Warpriest, I'd be happy to hear what you changed and what you thought of your new character.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

David_Bross wrote:

There has been official word. Although it doesn't match what we were told before the ACG came out.

Additional Resources wrote:

All playtest versions of the ten new base classes from this book are no longer legal for play as of 8/14/14. Anyone playing the playtest version of one of the ten new base classes must have updated his or her character as of 8/14/14. Updating your character means adjusting only the things that have changed, but not rebuilding the character.

No, as far as we can tell there has not been. It was mentioned a few times that the ACG classes would begetting specific rules for rebuilding, but that (at the time) they where not sure what they would be yet.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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I believe that both rules apply, with the more generous rule in the guide superceding the generic one from additional resources.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Additional resources assumes that no ability changes were made to the classes. That literally it was just modifying how the different abilities worked or swapping out spell lists feats etc.

But the fact that if you used this rule for the warpriest you might end up with a completely nerfed character, it leads me to believe that the rule in the guide is more specific to these circumstances and specific trumps general.

3/5

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Andrew Christian wrote:

Additional resources assumes that no ability changes were made to the classes. That literally it was just modifying how the different abilities worked or swapping out spell lists feats etc.

But the fact that if you used this rule for the warpriest you might end up with a completely nerfed character, it leads me to believe that the rule in the guide is more specific to these circumstances and specific trumps general.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on it. The Warpriest situation is more specifically called out in the guide, so its rules win.

As to those suggesting no archetype changes, the rebuild suggested in the guide only states that XP and equipment must stay the same. I think you are adding rules that aren't there.

4/5

Andrew Christian wrote:

Additional resources assumes that no ability changes were made to the classes. That literally it was just modifying how the different abilities worked or swapping out spell lists feats etc.

But the fact that if you used this rule for the warpriest you might end up with a completely nerfed character, it leads me to believe that the rule in the guide is more specific to these circumstances and specific trumps general.

Andrew pretty much covered on this one!

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

The Fourth Horseman wrote:
As to those suggesting no archetype changes, the rebuild suggested in the guide only states that XP and equipment must stay the same. I think you are adding rules that aren't there.

And just because a new option becomes available doesn't mean you get to freely rebuild your character to include it.

If you have a 6th level Human Warpriest, and you selected "+1 HP" as your Favored Class Bonus for those 6 levels, you don't get to "rebuild" them into "+1/6 bonus combat feat" just because the option wasn't available earlier.

Same goes for the new Archetypes. You're set with what you've got. If you want to add a new option, the retraining rules found in Ultimate Campaign are available to you.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

I agree nefreet. Except in instances an ability required is modified, and the guide indicates you get to rebuild up to your xp.

4/5

I'd agree with you Andrew except the text is not at all ambiguous in additional resources or what happens when rebuilds are warranted

Mark Moreland wrote:

If a class, prestige class changes, or a class-feature-dependent Ability score is altered:

You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment.

Additional Resources wrote:
All playtest versions of the ten new base classes from this book are no longer legal for play as of 8/14/14. Anyone playing the playtest version of one of the ten new base classes must have updated his or her character as of 8/14/14. Updating your character means adjusting only the things that have changed, but not rebuilding the character.

All of the classes received small changes, but right now no one has the option of rebuilding, is how that specifically reads.

You may feel you're due a rebuild for your war priest, and campaign management said they would consider it, and I'm guessing post gencon they will, but until such a time as we've heard anything about it, it is safest to assume you don't have one.

I'm not sure how you can read the note in additional resources, then go back to the rules for rebuilding and assume that the rules for rebuilding is the more specific case.


The Guide says that if a class, prestige class, or class feature dependent ability score is altered you get a rebuild to your current XP keeping the same equipment.

Charisma was a class feature dependent ability score for the Warpriest it isn't now so it has been altered so Warpriests are allowed a rebuild; or are people suggesting that since the Addition Resources say that you have to update your character but not rebuilding and not counting what constitutes a rebuild in The Guide to Organized Play than I guess if the Arcanist from an Intelligence caster to a Wisdom caster they could be stuck not casting spells since the Additional Resources say no rebuilds(even though The Guide does)

4/5

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I think its safe to say when the campaign leadership gets back the AR may get some rewording into it.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Andrew Christian wrote:
I agree nefreet. Except in instances an ability required is modified, and the guide indicates you get to rebuild up to your xp.

So, in the case of the Warpriest, CHA is no longer a relevant stat.

Do you:

A) just rebuild your stats, presumably dumping Charisma and increasing Wisdom, or

B) rebuild your stats, and then rebuild the character from level 1 (incorporating new available options like FCBs and Archetypes)?

Since I tend to view rules in PFS through a conservative lens, I'd think it would be A.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Especially since that would mean that some playtest PCs get, basically, a free retraining into an Archetype, while those that weren't modified after the playtest don't.

3/5

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Nefreet -

The rule is plain as day in the guide. There are no limitations to the rebuild clause if class ability dependent ability scores change, except that you must keep current XP and treasure. You are inferring limitations that are not explicitly written. You are making rules up, not interpreting the guide conservatively.

With that said, I'm done. I know I can't convince you, and it will take an official announcement.

1/5

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Short and sweet.

Yes.

Rebuild completely keeping your gear.

The end.

4/5

Fourth Horseman and Undone,

you guys are completely ignoring additional resources because you don't like what it has to say... I don't know what else could possibly be said.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

The Fourth Horseman wrote:
With that said, I'm done. I know I can't convince you, and it will take an official announcement.

Hey now, I don't see any need for personal attacks. You don't know me, and I don't know you. If you read through my posts you'll see that I often do change my opinion on matters when new evidence or arguments are more compelling than previous evidence or arguments.

In case you didn't notice, I asked a question, with options A and B as possible answers. I was trying to clarify what Andrew Christian was stating.

I don't often hard line require "official announcements". I'm well aware that not everything is black and white. But enough people are having trouble with this that some clarification could be helpful.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

I also believe Andrew is right, if you have played one mod into your second level of the character you are stuck with the class the way it is. No archtype for any player beyond the first level played for the ACG ten classes.

I have not played more than two mods for any new class from the ACG since the revised version came out. Favored class options from the ARG for non CRB races are another thing in regard to those races class options.

Shadow Lodge

I'm generally in favor of very limited rebuilds, but the warpriest change is a fairly massive one. I am aware of warpriests that have a low Wisdom and a high Charisma because they were heavily based off the Fervor mechanic which ran off Charisma moreso than their spells. I cannot imagine punishing these folks who participated in the beta because its been switched to Wisdom. I imagine there are multiclassed warpriests out there as well, who have levels in paladin, oracle or possibly even sorcerer where this change is a much larger impact.

As a second point, I know of at least one local player of the swashbuckler that took traits and feats that improved his attacks of opportunity since the ACG Playtest clearly stated that when making a parry, the PC "makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity". This wording changed in the final release so that parries are no longer made like attacks of opportunity. Granted, this character's Fencer trait is still useful on actual attacks of opportunity, but they are also technically subjected to the phrase:
"If a class .. is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment" as the class was genuinely altered to behave differently for this character than it did previously.

And as a third point, I'm also somewhat in the same boat myself. I have a shaman that went down the "Spell Focus (conjuration)" road for 2 feats with the plan to take "Augmented Summoning" only to discover that all the summon spells have been removed from the shaman's spell list. He does not have the spirit that grants spontaneous summoning, either. At this point, I'm not really sure how to tweak him for the final release. He could still certainly cast a couple summoning spells at higher DCs with his feats, but the change to the class's spell list makes him fundamentally different.

I think if you look hard enough, all of the ACG classes changed in some way, so a liberal read could be that they all get full rebuilds, although I wager this is not what was intended with the text in Additional Resources. Perhaps that was just a placeholder for Mike & company to see firsthand at GenCon what the impact of that may be, and then come back this week to provide more detail.

3/5

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David_Bross wrote:

Fourth Horseman and Undone,

you guys are completely ignoring additional resources because you don't like what it has to say... I don't know what else could possibly be said.

I could say the same of you. You are completely ignoring the guide to organized play because you don't like what it has to say... I don't know what else could possibly be said.

3/5

Nefreet wrote:
The Fourth Horseman wrote:
With that said, I'm done. I know I can't convince you, and it will take an official announcement.

Hey now, I don't see any need for personal attacks. You don't know me, and I don't know you. If you read through my posts you'll see that I often do change my opinion on matters when new evidence or arguments are more compelling than previous evidence or arguments.

In case you didn't notice, I asked a question, with options A and B as possible answers. I was trying to clarify what Andrew Christian was stating.

I don't often hard line require "official announcements". I'm well aware that not everything is black and white. But enough people are having trouble with this that some clarification could be helpful.

Ok. I was mistaken. I'm not done. That was not a personal attack. I didn't insult you. I made an observation based on your posts that I think is reasonable. The argument was quickly becoming circular, so it was obvious to me that folks who are against the rebuild need an official announcement. I suppose those in your camp could say the same of those in mine.

Liberty's Edge

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The changes to Warpriest were huge. Charisma is simply no longer a viable stat for a Warpriest. Also, multiclassing with paladin / oracle is now a very bad idea.

Also since the only VC in this thread is pointing out that normally the very specific rule regarding a change in ability score usage allows a rebuild should superceede the very general rule in additional resources, I am inclined to allow rebuilds of Warpriest characters.

The Exchange 3/5

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I definitely feel like the guide is the specific rule and the additional resources the general which would allow a full rebuild up to that xp but keeping the items the same.

4/5

As I can see a ruling going either way. I think I'm just going to shelve my playtest Warpriest till we get a official word on this.

4/5

Matt2VK wrote:
As I can see a ruling going either way. I think I'm just going to shelve my playtest Warpriest till we get a official word on this.

That's what I've done. And many of the rest of my characters are similarly waiting for the retraining synergy to be released.

GMing to accumulate PP in the meantime, so there's a silver lining there.

1/5

David_Bross wrote:

Fourth Horseman and Undone,

you guys are completely ignoring additional resources because you don't like what it has to say... I don't know what else could possibly be said.

Additional resources does not trump the guide.

The guide is the #1 rules document.

Specific rules in the guide trump general rules for the AR.

Quote:


I definitely feel like the guide is the specific rule and the additional resources the general which would allow a full rebuild up to that xp but keeping the items the same.

It's mind boggling to me that people would think the AR trumps the document that states what can and can be done in PFS. Specific>General is literally in the PHB as a rule.

Quote:
I could say the same of you. You are completely ignoring the guide to organized play because you don't like what it has to say... I don't know what else could possibly be said.

Do I need to get judge dred in here in the form of the organized play guide to scream "I AM THE LAW".

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

If Campaign Leadership does issue a ruling, I'd hope they combine it with the retraining synergy for other classes.

Like, I can imagine that retraining Witch or Oracle into Shaman would be considered a synergy (or vice versa), and I'm pretty sure I could count the cost as 5PP/level rather than 7PP/level, but what about, say, Shaman to Cleric?

Unless that's a bigger topic that would be more appropriate for a Blog post of its own.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Undone wrote:

The guide is the #1 rules document.

Specific rules in the guide trump general rules for the AR.

I respectfully disagree. The Additional Resources document, like the Guide, is specific to the PFS play environment. Wile the Additional Resources does not "trump" the Guide, neither does the Guide trump the Additional Resources.

This is a case of play-test versions differing from final released versions of classes, a sub-case of "things have changed". The AR seems the better source.

Quote:

Short and sweet.

Yes.

Rebuild completely keeping your gear.

The end.

Not at my table, no. I won't sign off on a complete rebuild (warpriest to, say, ninja) and if I look through your chronicles and see that another GM has done so, the character will need to be readjusted back according to the AR document before it's legal. (If that means that your warpriest is stuck with a lot of ninja gear, sorry.)

Is that unfortunate for the Charisma-based warpriest? Yes, but that's the risks you take, playing the play-test version of rules. We knew that, going in.

If Mike or John rule otherwise, I will of course follow their guidance.

3/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

This rule must be here for SOME reason:

Quote:
If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment.

So if it doesn't apply to the changes to the Warpriest, what kind of changes would it apply to? If changing the ability score that a class feature depends on doesn't qualify as "a class feature-dependent ability score is altered," then what does?

4/5

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Chris Mortika wrote:
Is that unfortunate for the Charisma-based warpriest? Yes, but that's the risks you take, playing the play-test version of rules. We knew that, going in.

But why? Why should this be the case? Why is it that playtesting, giving free data and feedback to Paizo, get punished for their service to the company? Not only that, the point of the playtest is to try out new things. They are supposed to test the boundaries of the class so that Paizo knows if it is balanced. Why is it that players should not be able to rebuild when it is found out they'd rather not have an ability work a certain way?

I really just don't understand that decision. Nature shamans lost their wisdom to AC. There was no real warning of that (Lore oracles have charisma to AC, Monks have wisdom to AC...why not shaman?), so what if someone dumped dex because they knew their armor would be fine? Why is this getting punished?

I don't understand the large mass attitude of not letting people rebuild for playing builds that were once legal. This applies to anything. We experienced it with synthesist (Reluctance to let players rebuild stats, even with 7's in their physicals), crane style (You can't rebuild!), and pretty much anything. This is not just a Paizo thing either...in fact, I would say it's more propagated in the community.

I'm not saying people should be able to rebuild whenever. That's not even close to what I'm saying. But if a key ability is changing or being banned, then why not?

4/5

Chris Mortika wrote:
Undone wrote:

The guide is the #1 rules document.

Specific rules in the guide trump general rules for the AR.

I respectfully disagree. The Additional Resources document, like the Guide, is specific to the PFS play environment. Wile the Additional Resources does not "trump" the Guide, neither does the Guide trump the Additional Resources.

This is a case of play-test versions differing from final released versions of classes, a sub-case of "things have changed". The AR seems the better source.

So according to the AR, 'updating your character means adjusting only the things that have changed, but not rebuilding the character.'

Where do we look for specific guidance on adjusting the things that have changed? For example, what should a player do if the final ACG changes a Feat, such as requiring new pre-requisites?

Example: Slashing Grace:

Playtest:
Slashing Grace
Choose one type of one-handed slashing weapon.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, proficient with chosen weapon.

Final:
Slashing Grace (Combat)
You can stab your enemies with your sword or another slashing weapon.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

Does the player simply lose the Feat? Do they pick a new one? Is it something else?

I know the answer, and I suspect you do, too. Because it's in the Guide, right above what you're supposed to do if "a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered."

The AR tells you to adjust according to what changed. The Guide tells you how to make those adjustments. It's the more specific rule.

If it were a Feat, it would read something like this:

Quote:

Benefit: If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment.

Normal: Updating your character means adjusting only the things that have changed, but not rebuilding the character.

That's my read, at least.

I do believe the language in the Additional Resources needs to be clarified either way.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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RainyDayNinja wrote:

This rule must be here for SOME reason:

Quote:
If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment.
So if it doesn't apply to the changes to the Warpriest, what kind of changes would it apply to? If changing the ability score that a class feature depends on doesn't qualify as "a class feature-dependent ability score is altered," then what does?

Personally, I believe you get to re-stat your Warpriest. Move your points around, dump Charisma, and increase Wisdom. I think that's totally reasonable.

But retraining, and adding an Archetype, or selecting different Favored Class Bonuses, just seems like asking for something that's not supported in the rules.

(like Chris, whatever comes down the pipeline I'll also agree to. It's really ambiguous right now [this discussion proves that], and it definitely needs clarification)

Liberty's Edge

Facts on the table are straight forward. First, warpriest characters are radically different than the playtest version in regards to ability scores needed. Second, there is a specific rule to cover this type of change in the first and foremost rules document. There seems to be no counter for these arguments other than a general rule in additional resources.

Now, we have an opinion from a VC on this, the only people who are qualified to overrule a VC are Paizo staff (ie Mike). Now of course, an official ruling from Mike would be very helpful given the contentious nature of this. We can and should make our arguments to Mike on why we believe the official ruling should go one way or another.

If you want to decide willy nilly what goes at your tables perhaps PFS is not the right venue for you. Because then we get into the type of arguments about whether or not, you let your buddies cakewalk mods so I do not have to accept those mods you ran. This line of thought gets silly very fast. Let's just not go there.

Also, imho punishing players who were willing to help Paizo test out the new book is not that smart. Attempting this action would do nothing more than discourage players from becoming involved in the creative process.

4/5

The playtest feedback gathering portion ended about a month after it opened up, so those arguments hold no validity. Your desire to play a warpriest before the book came out is why you chose to play it, and that's great! If you chose to keep your wisdom low while raising charisma so you could use that class feature, that was a choice you made. You got to play that character who was admitted to be overpowered by the design team. Now for the real kicker.

We were told going in that we would not be getting rebuilds from the ACG.

Also, on another note, a venture officer's opinion on this forum is just that, their opinion. Only campaign leadership can issue ruling here. During an event you can appeal to a VO about a ruling at a table, and they can adjudicate that as needed. You can also do so after a game if you feel something was misadjudicated and it negatively effected your experience in PFS. Personally 9/10 times here locally our VOs tell us that the table GM has discretion, and to get further clarification from campaign leadership if we disagree by posting on the boards and asking for clarification.

I wrote this a bit ago, but please help me understand the logic of how the dissenting opinion of the rules being muddy here is being read.

1) The guide says when my class changes, I can rebuild said PC to the same XP.

2) Additional resources tells me what is legal in PFS, and the Ultimate Class Guide has these options legal.

3) The guide specifically says that if I participated in the playtest that I update my PC to the current mechanics in the ACG, not rebuilding my PC.

4) I rebuild my PC to current XP per 1), as 3) was a "general guideline" and not "specific to the ACG playtest" ?

This is not to say I don't think campaign leadership should look to see if a rebuild might be warranted for warpriests. Until such a time as that happens, we have to abide by what is written here.

4/5

David_Bross wrote:
We were told going in that we would not be getting rebuilds from the ACG.

We were told, with regard to the change in the Warpriest's ability-dependent features, that "that's the sort of thing we'll take into consideration when deciding how much rebuilding is the right amount of rebuilding to allow."

4/5

redward wrote:
David_Bross wrote:
We were told going in that we would not be getting rebuilds from the ACG.
We were told, with regard to the change in the Warpriest's ability-dependent features, that "that's the sort of thing we'll take into consideration when deciding how much rebuilding is the right amount of rebuilding to allow."

Yes, and I'm hoping affected PCs get a rebuild. I'm just stating right now they don't have one by the only way I can possibly see interpreting the ruling that has been handed down.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

I'm going to wager that a lions share of the playtesters are and were PFS players.

And while the playtest ended in a month, you still would have a character of whatever level it was when the playtest ended. I know some that were 6th at the end of the playtest. So holding that character out of play for six months would still net the same issue.

Nobody is asking for a blanket rebuild so any ACG classes could get all the new stuff. They are simply asking that the Guide rule apply for the Warpriest. And but for the wording in additional resources, there would be no question that it would apply.

Ideally, Mike allows an adjustment of stats to fit in line with the class. I'd argue that the additional resources would allow this anyways, but without explicit language we remain in the dark at present.

Liberty's Edge

I figured I would go ahead and post the sections in question below:

From the guide to PFS (page 28): "If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment."

From Additional resources: "Anyone playing the playtest version of one of the ten new base classes must have updated his or her character as of 8/14/14. Updating your character means adjusting only the things that have changed, but not rebuilding the character."

Now, the only class in the ACG that had ability scores changed was the Warpriest. Therefore there should definitely be no rebuilds for non warpriest classes. However, the Warpriest ability score requirements did change for class features thus meeting the first statement's requirements. So the first statement also definitely applies in the Warpriest example.

Since both statements apply, now is a class or class feature more specific? A class feature change is more specific therefore the first would normally be given precedence because of specific triumphing general.

Shadow Lodge

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Alceste008 wrote:
I figured I would go ahead and post the sections in question below..

The gist I'm getting is that some folks are reading the Additional Resources ACG section as taking precedence over the rebuilding rules in the Guide to Organized Play, thus the line on page 28 isn't applicable because other rules are given specific to ACG.

The line on page 28 is very liberal, in essence meaning:

"If a class... is altered: You may rebuild your character.."

"If a prestige class... is altered: You may rebuild your character.."

"If a class feature-dependent ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character.."

Technically all the classes were altered, many in less dramatic ways than others, so this would open full rebuilds to everyone if you took this line on page 28 and ran with it.

The question is - can you? Or is the section in Additional Resources in fact overriding the Guide to Organized play for the ACG Playtest classes.

I can think of a lot of ACG class characters that folks would like to play as soon as this weekend or in upcoming conventions that are awaiting guidance in how much they can rebuild, if anything.

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