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12 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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[ACG][Archtype: Mutation Warrior][Mutagen Discovery class feature]
Does this count as "Discovery" for the Extra Discoveries Feat?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-discovery
Quote: Extra Discovery
You have made a new alchemical discovery.
Prerequisite: Discovery class feature.
Benefit: You gain one additional discovery. You must meet all of the prerequisites for this discovery.
Special: You can gain Extra Discovery multiple times.
-If the Answer to this is yes then it opens up some possibilities. The question here is can "Mutagen Discovery" be counted as "Discovery" for the purpose of meeting the feats prerequisite?
-If the Answer to this is no (which I suspect its going to be) then its not a big deal. (I figure that they are going to classify it as two separate class features that just share a common word).
Why not? You still must qualify for any other discoveries, so it would be of minimal use.
Chess Pwn wrote: I think it's no This would be my initial thought as well, but the word Discovery is in this class feature, and its a more limited version of the standard "Discovery" class feature. So I'm looking for some type of clarification or reasoning as to why it would or would not meet the feats prerequisite.
I honestly don't know. If I was the DM, I'd rule that you could take the extra discovery feat, but only to take discoveries that the Mutation Warrior Archetype allows you to take. RAW is unclear, so it probably needs to be clarified at some point, I think.
The feat says discovery class feature. The fighter gains mutagen discovery class feature. And since it's not replacing Discovery class feature it doesn't tie into the whole "if a feature replaces a feature and is similar it counts as that feature." This is how I'm understanding this.
Ventnor wrote: I honestly don't know. If I was the DM, I'd rule that you could take the extra discovery feat, but only to take discoveries that the Mutation Warrior Archetype allows you to take. RAW is unclear, so it probably needs to be clarified at some point, I think. See If I allowed it, this is the restriction I would place on it as well. That you can only take discoveries drawn from those available to the Mutation Warrior.
Chess Pwn wrote: The feat says discovery class feature. The fighter gains mutagen discovery class feature. And since it's not replacing Discovery class feature it doesn't tie into the whole "if a feature replaces a feature and is similar it counts as that feature." This is how I'm understanding this. I can understand where you are coming from with this. The only thing I would say is that both abilities allow you to gain "Discoveries", but the Mutation Warrior has a much smaller list to draw from. In this case you can't replace the "Discovery" class feature because the fighter doesn't have that. They replaced Armor Training and gave him a "Discovery Light" class feature. And when compared side by side, one could say Mutagen Discovery is similar to the standard Discovery class feature.
Long story short: EDITORS AND DESIGNERS NEED TO BE VERY CLEAR AND SPECIFIC WHEN DESIGNING ALTERNATE CLASS FEATURES AND NAMING THINGS
Bump, for I also would like to know the answer to this, and there doesn't seem to be one yet.
I have a bunch of time to wait until level 7 in PFS, but it'd be nice to know either way so I know what I have to look (or not) look forward to.
I think that since you don't have a class feature named "Discovery" you're out of luck.
No. Discovery is the name of a class feature for the Alchemist. If Extra Discovery's requirement were "a discovery" you'd be golden. But as it specifically calls out the discovery class feature then this will not work.
But then we have stuff like extra channel and it can be picked up by life oracles even though their ability is life channel, not channel energy. And weapon training gloves work for spear training and the like. So I'm not sure how to rule it, but I'm not sure if it's as clear as saying the name is off so no.
In pathfinder, the name of a class feature is not what matters, what matters is the content of a class feature. A few examples are the channel FAQ and the archetype replacement FAQ. Also, as Chess Pwn mentions a number of feats work with class features that don't match their prerequisite names. Beyond Extra channel, look at all of the animal companion feats. They all mention "Animal Companion Class Feature" as a prerequisite, but there was no such class feature until the hunter came out, every other AC granting feature had another name. SKR clarified this a long time ago in this post.
So yes, no matter what the name of a class feature, if it grants discoveries, you qualify for Extra Discovery, unless it says you don't (Primalist Bloodrager for example).
The Oracle taking Extra Channel is an interesting point. Is that specifically allowed by some FAQ? If so then reviewing that FAQ might be helpful for this case too.
As far as the "content" of a class feature goes, I think folks could argue either way whether the Mutagen Discovery class feature really has the same content as the Discovery class feature. It seems to have a subset of the content, but I'm not sure if that would count.
I have a couple of PCs with this archetype, so I'd be interested in an official answer. I don't intend to take Extra Discovery in the meantime only to get FAQ'd later and have to give it up though (besides the nuisance of changing the PC it could create a perception that I'd been "cheating" somehow
Well then, I guess I will give the most relevant FAQ for this problem:
Right Here
Given that it forces you to make specific choices from the standard ability, and repeatedly refers to it by referencing the standard ability, then the new ability works like the standard ability.
Of course, since it gives you a specific list to choose from, you can only use that specific list if you get extra discoveries. You can also only pick that feat after you get your first discovery (or same time, I guess, since it is at an odd level).
So honestly? For the most part, since the obvious right choice is WINGS, you are not getting anything too amazing even if you do get extra discoveries. I guess the tentacle might serve well as an adjacent weapon for reach (it is primary if it is the only natural weapon) and preserve organs replaces an armor property... and less selfish people might pick infuse mutagen (I want all the +'s though)... Feral mutagen comes to late to be useful (Since waiting until mid levels to get your build style seems...meh). Really, wings is the big thing and you can grab that as soon as extra discovery is an option. Ragdoll might be interesting as a substitute for a parachute though.
Really, wings is the big thing and you can grab that as soon as extra discovery is an option. Everything else was put there to give options, but to actually make things like extra discovery useful. This archetype just lets you fly and take advantage of even more damage per hit...and there is little wrong with that.
lemeres wrote: Well then, I guess I will give the most relevant FAQ for this problem:
Right Here
Given that it forces you to make specific choices from the standard ability, and repeatedly refers to it by referencing the standard ability, then the new ability works like the standard ability.
Of course, since it gives you a specific list to choose from, you can only use that specific list if you get extra discoveries. You can also only pick that feat after you get your first discovery (or same time, I guess, since it is at an odd level).
So honestly? For the most part, since the obvious right choice is WINGS, you are not getting anything too amazing even if you do get extra discoveries. I guess the tentacle might serve well as an adjacent weapon for reach (it is primary if it is the only natural weapon) and preserve organs replaces an armor property... and less selfish people might pick infuse mutagen (I want all the +'s though)... Feral mutagen comes to late to be useful (Since waiting until mid levels to get your build style seems...meh). Really, wings is the big thing and you can grab that as soon as extra discovery is an option. Ragdoll might be interesting as a substitute for a parachute though.
Really, wings is the big thing and you can grab that as soon as extra discovery is an option. Everything else was put there to give options, but to actually make things like extra discovery useful. This archetype just lets you fly and take advantage of even more damage per hit...and there is little wrong with that.
the faq is about archetypes of a parent class.
so, some would argue, that if mutation warrior was an archetype of an alchemist, then yes, it would work, but since it is an archeype of fighter, who doesn't have the discovery class ability, then it doesn't apply
or to be more precise:
Quote: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability? mutation warrior doesn't replace discovery.
so it doesnt work like discovery for prerequisites.
shroudb wrote: lemeres wrote: Well then, I guess I will give the most relevant FAQ for this problem:
Right Here
Given that it forces you to make specific choices from the standard ability, and repeatedly refers to it by referencing the standard ability, then the new ability works like the standard ability.
Of course, since it gives you a specific list to choose from, you can only use that specific list if you get extra discoveries. You can also only pick that feat after you get your first discovery (or same time, I guess, since it is at an odd level).
So honestly? For the most part, since the obvious right choice is WINGS, you are not getting anything too amazing even if you do get extra discoveries. I guess the tentacle might serve well as an adjacent weapon for reach (it is primary if it is the only natural weapon) and preserve organs replaces an armor property... and less selfish people might pick infuse mutagen (I want all the +'s though)... Feral mutagen comes to late to be useful (Since waiting until mid levels to get your build style seems...meh). Really, wings is the big thing and you can grab that as soon as extra discovery is an option. Ragdoll might be interesting as a substitute for a parachute though.
Really, wings is the big thing and you can grab that as soon as extra discovery is an option. Everything else was put there to give options, but to actually make things like extra discovery useful. This archetype just lets you fly and take advantage of even more damage per hit...and there is little wrong with that.
the faq is about archetypes of a parent class.
so, some would argue, that if mutation warrior was an archetype of an alchemist, then yes, it would work, but since it is an archeype of fighter, who doesn't have the discovery class ability, then it doesn't apply
or to be more precise:
Quote: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that ... Can a ranger take boon companion? According to what you are saying, your answer is no.
Calth wrote: shroudb wrote: lemeres wrote: Well then, I guess I will give the most relevant FAQ for this problem:
Right Here
Given that it forces you to make specific choices from the standard ability, and repeatedly refers to it by referencing the standard ability, then the new ability works like the standard ability.
Of course, since it gives you a specific list to choose from, you can only use that specific list if you get extra discoveries. You can also only pick that feat after you get your first discovery (or same time, I guess, since it is at an odd level).
So honestly? For the most part, since the obvious right choice is WINGS, you are not getting anything too amazing even if you do get extra discoveries. I guess the tentacle might serve well as an adjacent weapon for reach (it is primary if it is the only natural weapon) and preserve organs replaces an armor property... and less selfish people might pick infuse mutagen (I want all the +'s though)... Feral mutagen comes to late to be useful (Since waiting until mid levels to get your build style seems...meh). Really, wings is the big thing and you can grab that as soon as extra discovery is an option. Ragdoll might be interesting as a substitute for a parachute though.
Really, wings is the big thing and you can grab that as soon as extra discovery is an option. Everything else was put there to give options, but to actually make things like extra discovery useful. This archetype just lets you fly and take advantage of even more damage per hit...and there is little wrong with that.
the faq is about archetypes of a parent class.
so, some would argue, that if mutation warrior was an archetype of an alchemist, then yes, it would work, but since it is an archeype of fighter, who doesn't have the discovery class ability, then it doesn't apply
or to be more precise:
Quote: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ... why wouldn't he? he has animal companion. that's one of the prerequistes of boon companion.
you need either:
animal companion
or
familiar class feature
shroudb wrote: Calth wrote: shroudb wrote: lemeres wrote: Well then, I guess I will give the most relevant FAQ for this problem:
Right Here
Given that it forces you to make specific choices from the standard ability, and repeatedly refers to it by referencing the standard ability, then the new ability works like the standard ability.
Of course, since it gives you a specific list to choose from, you can only use that specific list if you get extra discoveries. You can also only pick that feat after you get your first discovery (or same time, I guess, since it is at an odd level).
So honestly? For the most part, since the obvious right choice is WINGS, you are not getting anything too amazing even if you do get extra discoveries. I guess the tentacle might serve well as an adjacent weapon for reach (it is primary if it is the only natural weapon) and preserve organs replaces an armor property... and less selfish people might pick infuse mutagen (I want all the +'s though)... Feral mutagen comes to late to be useful (Since waiting until mid levels to get your build style seems...meh). Really, wings is the big thing and you can grab that as soon as extra discovery is an option. Ragdoll might be interesting as a substitute for a parachute though.
Really, wings is the big thing and you can grab that as soon as extra discovery is an option. Everything else was put there to give options, but to actually make things like extra discovery useful. This archetype just lets you fly and take advantage of even more damage per hit...and there is little wrong with that.
the faq is about archetypes of a parent class.
so, some would argue, that if mutation warrior was an archetype of an alchemist, then yes, it would work, but since it is an archeype of fighter, who doesn't have the discovery class ability, then it doesn't apply
or to be more precise:
Quote: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more ... But rangers don't have the animal companion class feature, they have the hunters bond class feature and you just said that doesn't count.
Calth wrote: But rangers don't have the animal companion class feature, they have the hunters bond class feature and you just said that doesn't count. as far as i know, animal companion class feature doesnt exist (even for druids, it is part of natures bond)
what exist is animal companions.
the feat requires either:
animal companion
OR
familiar CLASS FEATURE
It is more than strongly implied that animal companion is a class feature. Unless, of course, the statement: "man or woman murderer" means "man" or "woman murderer" as opposed to "man murderer" or a " woman murderer."
Iterman wrote: It is more than strongly implied that animal companion is a class feature. Unless, of course, the statement: "man or woman murderer" means "man" or "woman murderer" as opposed to "man murderer" or a " woman murderer." maybe so , but there isnt a single class in the game as far as i remember from heart that has a class featured called animal companion.
there is nature's bond, there is hunter's bond, etc
some archetypes of some classes i THINK name it animal companion, but i doubt that the feat was made exlusivly for them.
so, even if we use the term"animal companion class feature" then we can only assume that the path you pick with your bond is the new name of the ability.
p.e. as written, a wizard can't take boon companion for his familiar, because he doesn't have a "familiar class ability" only "arcane bond".
but this, allowing those people to take boon companion, doesn't contradict my opinion about the faq:
it clearly states that if your archetype swaps out a class ability with something else and etcetcetc"
not if your archetype swaps IN a fraction of an ability from some other class altoghether you count as having the whole unmodified ability for prerequisites!
shroudb wrote: Iterman wrote: It is more than strongly implied that animal companion is a class feature. Unless, of course, the statement: "man or woman murderer" means "man" or "woman murderer" as opposed to "man murderer" or a " woman murderer." maybe so , but there isnt a single class in the game as far as i remember from heart that has a class featured called animal companion.
there is nature's bond, there is hunter's bond, etc
some archetypes of some classes i THINK name it animal companion, but i doubt that the feat was made exlusivly for them.
so, even if we use the term"animal companion class feature" then we can only assume that the path you pick with your bond is the new name of the ability.
p.e. as written, a wizard can't take boon companion for his familiar, because he doesn't have a "familiar class ability" only "arcane bond".
but this, allowing those people to take boon companion, doesn't contradict my opinion about the faq:
it clearly states that if your archetype swaps out a class ability with something else and etcetcetc"
not if your archetype swaps IN a fraction of an ability from some other class altoghether you count as having the whole unmodified ability for prerequisites! So, the name in the prerequisite only matters when you say it matters? Don't you see the contradiction there? Or how about you address Extra Channel, which has the prerequisite Channel Energy class feature, but Paladins who don't have Channel Energy can explicitly take?
Simply put, when a prerequisite is X class feature, it means "a X class feature" not "the X class feature." And you use the archetype replacement rules to determine whether an class feature qualifies as a X class feature.
Calth wrote: shroudb wrote: Iterman wrote: It is more than strongly implied that animal companion is a class feature. Unless, of course, the statement: "man or woman murderer" means "man" or "woman murderer" as opposed to "man murderer" or a " woman murderer." maybe so , but there isnt a single class in the game as far as i remember from heart that has a class featured called animal companion.
there is nature's bond, there is hunter's bond, etc
some archetypes of some classes i THINK name it animal companion, but i doubt that the feat was made exlusivly for them.
so, even if we use the term"animal companion class feature" then we can only assume that the path you pick with your bond is the new name of the ability.
p.e. as written, a wizard can't take boon companion for his familiar, because he doesn't have a "familiar class ability" only "arcane bond".
but this, allowing those people to take boon companion, doesn't contradict my opinion about the faq:
it clearly states that if your archetype swaps out a class ability with something else and etcetcetc"
not if your archetype swaps IN a fraction of an ability from some other class altoghether you count as having the whole unmodified ability for prerequisites! So, the name in the prerequisite only matters when you say it matters? Don't you see the contradiction there? Or how about you address Extra Channel, which has the prerequisite Channel Energy class feature, but Paladins who don't have Channel Energy can explicitly take?
Simply put, when a prerequisite is X class feature, it means "a X class feature" not "the X class feature." And you use the archetype replacement rules to determine whether an class feature qualifies as a X class feature. the faq clearly states that it applies when you swap out the feature for a more detailed feature.
you don't swap out discovery feature with mutation warrior.
so the faq doesn't apply to it.
to further this, the faq clearly states, that even if the ability functions similary to another ability, it is dependant on actual wording to see if it counts as this ability from prerequisites, like p.e. expert archer, which is the same as weapon training (bows) but doesn count as weapon training (bows).
so yes, depending on how each one reads an individual ability, he can make a ruling if it is appropriate or not for prerequisits.
as for extra channel, they had to specifically say you can for paladins, the rest can take it because they have the feature.
shroudb wrote: Calth wrote: shroudb wrote: Iterman wrote: It is more than strongly implied that animal companion is a class feature. Unless, of course, the statement: "man or woman murderer" means "man" or "woman murderer" as opposed to "man murderer" or a " woman murderer." maybe so , but there isnt a single class in the game as far as i remember from heart that has a class featured called animal companion.
there is nature's bond, there is hunter's bond, etc
some archetypes of some classes i THINK name it animal companion, but i doubt that the feat was made exlusivly for them.
so, even if we use the term"animal companion class feature" then we can only assume that the path you pick with your bond is the new name of the ability.
p.e. as written, a wizard can't take boon companion for his familiar, because he doesn't have a "familiar class ability" only "arcane bond".
but this, allowing those people to take boon companion, doesn't contradict my opinion about the faq:
it clearly states that if your archetype swaps out a class ability with something else and etcetcetc"
not if your archetype swaps IN a fraction of an ability from some other class altoghether you count as having the whole unmodified ability for prerequisites! So, the name in the prerequisite only matters when you say it matters? Don't you see the contradiction there? Or how about you address Extra Channel, which has the prerequisite Channel Energy class feature, but Paladins who don't have Channel Energy can explicitly take?
Simply put, when a prerequisite is X class feature, it means "a X class feature" not "the X class feature." And you use the archetype replacement rules to determine whether an class feature qualifies as a X class feature. the faq clearly states that it applies when you swap out the feature for a more detailed feature.
you don't swap out discovery feature with mutation warrior.
so the faq doesn't apply to it.
as for extra channel, they had to specifically say you can... But oracles can take it too and they don't have a specific mention in the feat, and they don't have channel energy.
Life oracles don't have channel energy. and they can take it.
Calth wrote: shroudb wrote: Calth wrote: shroudb wrote: Iterman wrote: It is more than strongly implied that animal companion is a class feature. Unless, of course, the statement: "man or woman murderer" means "man" or "woman murderer" as opposed to "man murderer" or a " woman murderer." maybe so , but there isnt a single class in the game as far as i remember from heart that has a class featured called animal companion.
there is nature's bond, there is hunter's bond, etc
some archetypes of some classes i THINK name it animal companion, but i doubt that the feat was made exlusivly for them.
so, even if we use the term"animal companion class feature" then we can only assume that the path you pick with your bond is the new name of the ability.
p.e. as written, a wizard can't take boon companion for his familiar, because he doesn't have a "familiar class ability" only "arcane bond".
but this, allowing those people to take boon companion, doesn't contradict my opinion about the faq:
it clearly states that if your archetype swaps out a class ability with something else and etcetcetc"
not if your archetype swaps IN a fraction of an ability from some other class altoghether you count as having the whole unmodified ability for prerequisites! So, the name in the prerequisite only matters when you say it matters? Don't you see the contradiction there? Or how about you address Extra Channel, which has the prerequisite Channel Energy class feature, but Paladins who don't have Channel Energy can explicitly take?
Simply put, when a prerequisite is X class feature, it means "a X class feature" not "the X class feature." And you use the archetype replacement rules to determine whether an class feature qualifies as a X class feature. the faq clearly states that it applies when you swap out the feature for a more detailed feature.
you don't swap out discovery feature with mutation warrior.
so the faq doesn't apply to it.
as for extra channel, they had ... read my edit.
basically, the very same faq you quoted says that it depends on how an ability is written.
that depends on how one reads the ability
the outcome may be different for each person.
for me, the reading of the faq CLEARLY states that needs to swap out the discovery feature in the first place.
extra channel feat has been SPECIFICALLY said to work for life oracles and paladins and stuff.
for me, the reading of the mutation warrior's ability is similar to how expert archer is worded: they offer part of the benefit and they dont qualify (as per the faq) for you it might not.
rules wise, it depends on how a gm reads it, and it can stand it;s ground on official tables both ways
Expert archer doesn't count as weapon training because it has a completely different mechanic than weapon training. Expert archer is a level based bonus granted through a single class feature, weapon training is a static bonus that might be increased by additional iterations of similar class features.
As for channel energy, have you even read the post I linked earlier? It's one of the best explanations from the Pathfinder devs on how they write rules and the intentions of the game.
I kind of hope it doesn't work since else it will be very tempting for one of my PCs to invest a bunch of feats in Extra Discovery. It seems like this should be a pretty easy question for Paizo to answer if they notice it.
even if it works is not even that good, since discoveries require alchemist levels to take them, even with extra discovery, this would only open some lvl 0 discoveries most of which are not very good anyway(except maybe feral mutagen if you go that route but it gets overshadowed by iteratives fast) and make the fighter beign able to take the same discoveries he was already meant to take at a slightier faster rate sacrificing feats. Is nice but hardly a gamebreaker
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ElementalXX wrote: even if it works is not even that good, since discoveries require alchemist levels to take them, even with extra discovery, this would only open some lvl 0 discoveries most of which are not very good anyway(except maybe feral mutagen if you go that route but it gets overshadowed by iteratives fast) and make the fighter beign able to take the same discoveries he was already meant to take at a slightier faster rate sacrificing feats. Is nice but hardly a gamebreaker That archetype does have language that says "The mutagen warrior uses his fighter level as his effective alchemist level for the purpose of these discoveries. ". Of course, he still only qualifies for the discoveries listed in the archetype.
The verbatim name of the ability doesn't matter as it explicitly grants actual alchemist discoveries albeit from a limited list.
Thus you can take Extra Discovery, but only select from the discoveries allowed by the archetype.
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