Vital Strike vs Full Attack


Advice

101 to 141 of 141 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

Ibwish theyd just allow vitalbto apply to anyhing l7ke my dm does.
Any action hat is an attack is what ye goes by.
So first hit in full attack, charge, first hit on cleave, erc.
By dar from problematic.
I also wish the bab was lower aince I like it on 3 4ths


666bender wrote:

Also - large size heavy xbow offer 2d8 damage for -2 to hit.

Enlarged is 4d8
Vital strike it's 8d8 .

Enlarge doesn't work on ranged weapons, unless you jump through a couple hoops (carrying large sized bolts, dropping them before you're enlarged, then picking them back up).


Alexander Augunas wrote:


Its not a "dumb ruling," it is a fundamental ruling about how attacking works in the game.

It is a dumb ruling because it ensures that Vital Strike, Cleave, Spring Attack, etc. are rarely taken. Full Attacks are better, except in rare corner cases, niche builds, or (in the case of Vital Strike) Mythic campaigns. And that's only because Mythic Vital Strike is what the original feat should have been in the first place.

Consider that the 3-feat investment for Pummeling Charge is the same as that of Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack and Vital Strike/Improved/Greater.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Vital Strike is a perfectly valid feat, just like Run. You silly optimizers just need to open your eyes to other options. Nothing can go wrong by throwing your entire build into a single melee attack roll.


Vital Strike Tyrannosaurus wrote:
Vital Strike is a perfectly valid feat, just like Run. You silly optimizers just need to open your eyes to other options. Nothing can go wrong by throwing your entire build into a single melee attack roll.

I know it's sarcasm, but if you have a single massive attack each round, you can try to finagle a Quickened True Strike onto it. Don't have to worry about Crane Wing anymore.


Athaleon wrote:
Vital Strike Tyrannosaurus wrote:
Vital Strike is a perfectly valid feat, just like Run. You silly optimizers just need to open your eyes to other options. Nothing can go wrong by throwing your entire build into a single melee attack roll.
I know it's sarcasm, but if you have a single massive attack each round, you can try to finagle a Quickened True Strike onto it. Don't have to worry about Crane Wing anymore.

Those cheating flyers should be banned like Crane Wing was, then. Flying -> Wings -> Crane Wing. It's all hax.

Good idea on the quickened true strike though. Always good for when that attack absolutely, positively has to hit.

This novelty account was totally worth it though. T-rex actually having the Run feat gets me giggling every single time I see it.


Athaleon wrote:


Consider that the 3-feat investment for Pummeling Charge is the same as that of Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack and Vital Strike/Improved/Greater.

3? I'll be shocked if anyone gets more that 2 of the pummeling feats. When you can use Master of Many styles or Unarmed fighter to ignore the prerequisites, I expect anyone that wants Pummeling Charge will spend 2 feats and can have it by second level.

The Exchange

666bender wrote:

Also - large size heavy xbow offer 2d8 damage for -2 to hit.

Enlarged is 4d8
Vital strike it's 8d8 .

We didn't mention it because this stuff isn't even in the same ballpark of what we're debating. These builds can be out-damaged by, well... just about everything.

The Exchange

Athaleon wrote:
Vital Strike Tyrannosaurus wrote:
Vital Strike is a perfectly valid feat, just like Run. You silly optimizers just need to open your eyes to other options. Nothing can go wrong by throwing your entire build into a single melee attack roll.
I know it's sarcasm, but if you have a single massive attack each round, you can try to finagle a Quickened True Strike onto it. Don't have to worry about Crane Wing anymore.

Quickened true strike? So you mean to tell me that you're throwing every single thing your build can manage into ONE ATTACK, and you're not even hitting on a 2? Doesn't that seem... stupid?

The Exchange

Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Have we discussed the Cave Druid/Carnivorous Ooze monstrosity yet?

Not yet but it's pretty horrendous.

Either 6 level of cave druid, the rest barb, + shaping focus. Or druid 10 rest barb. Carnivorous crystal has a 7d8 slam attack. Since that's a weird point on the progression scale we can be conservative and assume it scales as 6d8. Meaning it would go to 8d8 with INA, 16d8 with strong jaw + INA, and 48d8 with strong jaw, INA, and improved vital strike. Toss in Furious Focus and that's 384 damage before modifiers.

You could honestly have the best build design in the world, but the second you suggest furious focus every person who's even remotely interested in optimizing is going to stop paying attention, because even the most novice optimizer knows that furious focus is useless by now.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Demoyn wrote:
666bender wrote:

Also - large size heavy xbow offer 2d8 damage for -2 to hit.

Enlarged is 4d8
Vital strike it's 8d8 .
We didn't mention it because this stuff isn't even in the same ballpark of what we're debating. These builds can be out-damaged by, well... just about everything.

Not to mention archery has far less incentive to invest in vital strike to begin with. It's a lot easier to get full attacks with a ranged weapon than melee, and Clustered Shots makes DR a non-issue.

The Exchange

Chengar Qordath wrote:
Demoyn wrote:
666bender wrote:

Also - large size heavy xbow offer 2d8 damage for -2 to hit.

Enlarged is 4d8
Vital strike it's 8d8 .
We didn't mention it because this stuff isn't even in the same ballpark of what we're debating. These builds can be out-damaged by, well... just about everything.
Not to mention archery has far less incentive to invest in vital strike to begin with. It's a lot easier to get full attacks with a ranged weapon than melee, and Clustered Shots makes DR a non-issue.

I was using that quote to reply to both of his posts at the same time, but your statement is very valid.


Vital Strike Tyrannosaurus wrote:
This novelty account was totally worth it though. T-rex actually having the Run feat gets me giggling every single time I see it.

Especially considering the fact that he's largely considered a scavenger nowadays, and that if he were ever to trip and fall he would crush his own ribs from his own weight with no way to catch himself.

I guess natural selection bred out all the clumbsy t rexes


Demoyn wrote:
Athaleon wrote:
Vital Strike Tyrannosaurus wrote:
Vital Strike is a perfectly valid feat, just like Run. You silly optimizers just need to open your eyes to other options. Nothing can go wrong by throwing your entire build into a single melee attack roll.
I know it's sarcasm, but if you have a single massive attack each round, you can try to finagle a Quickened True Strike onto it. Don't have to worry about Crane Wing anymore.
Quickened true strike? So you mean to tell me that you're throwing every single thing your build can manage into ONE ATTACK, and you're not even hitting on a 2? Doesn't that seem, well... stupid?

Maybe the target put similar effort into pushing his AC. Maybe the target is a much higher level than you are. Maybe you're missing items due to capture, Disjunction, or whatever. Maybe you got debuffed.

It's all hypothetical anyways, I don't have an actual build in mind and personally wouldn't go through the effort for this concept.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:


Especially considering the fact that he's largely considered a scavenger nowadays

Only by Jack Horner.


Just an idea, but if you are going to be a gunslinger, you have a significant misfire chance with each attack, which can result in your DPR not being as impressive as you'd expect when firing against touch AC. However there are guns that do a bunch of dice, but they usually take extra time to reload and have weird requirements like rolling them around in a cart or standing them up against a wall (which may require move actions) For some gunslinger's, you may see higher DPR when using vital strike then full attacking. I'm going to run the numbers through a spreadsheet and see what I can come up with.

The Exchange

Athaleon wrote:


Maybe the target put similar effort into pushing his AC. Maybe the target is a much higher level than you are. Maybe you're missing items due to capture, Disjunction, or whatever. Maybe you got debuffed.

It's all hypothetical anyways, I don't have an actual build in mind and personally wouldn't go through the effort for this concept.

Yeah... I'm definitely going to walk into an advice thread and suggest the OP create a build expecting to permanently have all of his gear stolen from him...

It doesn't matter. If you're soaking every resource you have into one attack, you'd better have an attack roll at least 10 points higher than the average AC for your CR anyway. Debuff. Face a target with a +8 CR. It doesn't matter. You still better be hitting on a 2 or you're doing it wrong.


KuntaSS wrote:
Just an idea, but if you are going to be a gunslinger, you have a significant misfire chance with each attack, which can result in your DPR not being as impressive as you'd expect when firing against touch AC. However there are guns that do a bunch of dice, but they usually take extra time to reload and have weird requirements like rolling them around in a cart or standing them up against a wall (which may require move actions) For some gunslinger's, you may see higher DPR when using vital strike then full attacking. I'm going to run the numbers through a spreadsheet and see what I can come up with.

gunslingers get deadshot deed without investing feats.


My cleric , at lvl 10, never hit with attack #2 .
It's -7 more than the first one. (Power attack)
Viral strike offer +7 free damage- greet for it.

The Exchange

666bender wrote:

My cleric , at lvl 10, never hit with attack #2 .

It's -7 more than the first one. (Power attack)
Viral strike offer +7 free damage- greet for it.

Instead of choosing a sub-par feat, why don't you just try building your cleric better?

Edit: actually... TWO sub-par feats, since you obviously took furious focus if your second attack is at -7.


Demoyn wrote:
666bender wrote:

My cleric , at lvl 10, never hit with attack #2 .

It's -7 more than the first one. (Power attack)
Viral strike offer +7 free damage- greet for it.

Instead of choosing a sub-par feat, why don't you just try building your cleric better?

Edit: actually... TWO sub-par feats, since you obviously took furious focus if your second attack is at -7.

why subpar?

Dark Archive

Even though I like vital strike a little, especially on 3/4 BAB like my Alchemist multiclass with between 1-4 levels of full BAB classes, I have to point out that if you know you will have regular access to haste, vital strike goes way down in value. Maybe you cannot reliably get your caster buddies to cast hate or blessing of fervor every combat. Vital strike might be available before you can afford your own personal haste effect via boots of speed. But once you get those boots, your vital strikes will become almost strictly on the move attacks. I like being able to do something like both vital strike and godless healing as a move action in the same turn but there are so few move actions worth doing that it just does not happen often.even the godless healing option is something that you can only do once a day unless you take that feat again.

I point out that Martial Study from the 3.5 Book of 9 Swords as a nice alternative to vital strike. I know the Dreamscarred Press PF version Bo9S also has a similar feat.

Psychic Warriors can get good use out of Vital Strike if they have the feat that lets them regain Psionic focus as a move action. Of course the Psionic attack feat that they could then use along. side VS is another feat cost and would not increase the VS itself. But as a 3/4, and having several bonus feats, I think they could make good use of it. Then again, they might want to instead invest in a Bo9S/Path of War martial maneuver and the feats that does something like toggle back and forth between Psionic focus and Bo9S/PoW style maneuvers.


Was thinking about greater grappling and vital strike, and it could be fairly useful, a quick concept build.

Random Name (Randy) The Wrestler
Orc +4STR, -2WIS,-2INT,-2CHR
15PB
STR 18 +4 = 22
CON 11
DEX 15
INT 7 -2 = 5
WIS 7 -2 = 5
CHR 7 -2 = 5
(level points go 1 to CON then rest STR)

Barbarian Brutal Pugilist

Level 1: fast movement, rage, improved unarmed strike (feat), +1 rage round (FC)
level 2: savage grapple, raging grapple (rage), +1 rage round (FC)
level 3: pit fighter +1 grapple CMB, improved grapple (feat), +1 rage round (FC)
level 4: animal fury (rage), +1 CON, +1 rage round (FC)
level 5: feat to be retrained next level (feat), improved savage grapple, +1 rage round (FC)
level 6: superstition (rage), greater grapple (retrained feat), +1 rage round (FC)
level 7: DR 1/-, vital strike (feat), +1 rage round (FC)

magic items: anaconda coils as soon as possible.

With anaconda's coils the barbarian would enter a rage, move to an enemy, grapple and make an IUS strike and a constrict attack for from the belt. After grappling the barbarian would bite (animal fury), maintain grapple as a move action, inflict damage with grapple, constrict attack from belt, vital strike as a standard action.


I think the best option for damage increase would be a half giant from the ultimate psionic book they have powerful build which lets them count as large for anything beneficial medium for the same thing.

Also if you convince your dm to allow you to use the Titan mauler as it was originally intended as being able to use over sized weapons even over sized 2 handed weapons and allows you to gain the benefit of enlarge person when you rage you could be using a colossal+ falchion doing 12d6+2(strength)+ power attack + weapon enhancement bonus and thats before vital strike.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Alexander Augunas wrote:

I have a Fighter (Lore Warden) 2 / Inquisitor (Sanctified Slayer) XX build that I've built around optimizing Vital Strike. It is wicked fun, though it is only possible because we're playing in Wrath of the Righteous.

Basically, I took Mythic Vital Strike, which doubles all of my modifiers (except additional damage dice) when I Vital Strike. I also took Legendary Weapon so I could craft my weapon (a bardiche) into an Impact weapon, which bumps up its damage as though it was one size category larger (2d6 instead of 1d10). I also use my legendary item spellcasting to enlarge myself to further increase the weapon damage dice of my bardiche.

Because of this, my Vital Strikes sit at 2d8 and add something silly like a +30 to the damage roll. I also have sneak attack dice, which I always get because I use the move action that I don't spend full attacking to feint with Improved Feint. And finally, because all of this damage is riding on one attack, it is significantly less painful for me to use foebiter (a legendary weapon ability) to double my damage done.

Again, really only works in Mythic play, but I'm usually not too far behind our group's archer and I only need to make one attack roll per round.

I may have missed something in the Mythic Rules, but 1d10 with a size increase goes to 2d8, not 2d6.

For the 7d6 Carniv Crystal, I'd go 9d6 then 12d6 to get it back on progression. You could also treat it as 4d10 and go 6d10, 8d10.

==+Aelryinth


RaizielDragon wrote:

I've seen it mentioned on some other threads that you can make a build built around optimizing the Vital Strike feat chain, and was wondering what exactly is involved in doing this?

Some of the obvious pros and cons I see are:

Vital Strike
Pros: Only a standard action; uses highest BAB
Cons: Only get damage modifiers once.

Full Attack
Pros: All damage modifiers are multiplied by number of successful attacks
Cons: Requires a full attack action; uses descending BAB across iterative attacks.

So, when it comes down to it, what abilities (feats, class features, etc.) are used to make Vital Strike better and what is used to make Full Attacks better? I see it mentioned a lot that for full attack builds, they tend to care more about damage modifiers, like Weapon Training, Favored Enemy, sneak attack, etc., whereas Vital Strike builds might try to optimize weapon dice, and focus a little less on damage modifiers (though not completely ignoring them).

Which tends to be easier to optimize? Which tends to come out on top, or are they fairly even when both are used in their optimal setting?

Just trying to open a discussion to get some viewpoints on the pros and cons of both builds, as well as some comparison, and what goes into both builds. I understand the basic principles behind each but wouldn't mind some more in-depth analysis from those more familiar with it, so I can increase my own system mastery so I can better help others (both on the boards and in my own play group).

EDIT: Another pro/con I just remembered is that Vital Strike doesn't have to worry as much about DR while Full attack builds do, as they suffer more from it.

What I did (one of funnest builds I played and never on the back foot against a canny DM that used terrain and such well).

18, 14, 14, 10, 12, 9 (20)
Kebbett the Jackal, "War is the sea I swim in and the air I breathe".

Suli Ranger (Shape Shifter + Freebooter) 6, Living Monolith 10. Indom. Faith, Magic Knack, (Worshipper of Curchanus and follower of the old order- http://dnd.educatedgamer.net/wiki/religion-1/churchanus)

1. Exotic W. B/S, 2B W.Foc, 3. P.Attack, 3B. Endurance, 5. Iron Will, 6B Vital Strike, 7. Furious Focus, 9. Pushing Assault, 11. Improved Vital Strike, 13. Death or Glory, 15. Dev. Strike, 17. G.V.Strike, 19. Elem Assault

Call Animal. Mitheral Agile Breastplate, Ring of Evasion. Anchoring Weapon.

Start with a large bastard sword = 2d8 so from first was doing 2d8 + 6 str + 1 free booter move action + d6 elemental damage = 2d8+7+d6

By 4th with power attack and lead blades was 3d8 + 6 str + 1 free booter move action + d6 elemental damage + 6 power attack = 3d8+13+d6 was still one shotting anything I wanted.

By 6 with vital strike and extra freebooter bonus became 3d8 + 6 str + 2 free booter move action + 3d8 vital strike + d6 elemental damage + 6 power attack = 6d8+14+d6.

At 7th with enlarge from monolith 4d8 + 7 str + 2 free booter move action + 4d8 vital strike + d6 elemental damage + 6 power attack = 8d8+15+d6.

Best thing was as 'jackal' shape shifter could move without provoking attacks of opportunity - so basically spring attacking every 2nd round and out damaging lame puny full attack monkeys.

All without items mind you : str item, magic weapon and most of all a huge SUN BLADE.. counts as a large short sword.

The Exchange

666bender wrote:
Demoyn wrote:
666bender wrote:

My cleric , at lvl 10, never hit with attack #2 .

It's -7 more than the first one. (Power attack)
Viral strike offer +7 free damage- greet for it.

Instead of choosing a sub-par feat, why don't you just try building your cleric better?

Edit: actually... TWO sub-par feats, since you obviously took furious focus if your second attack is at -7.

why subpar?

Because math.


Demoyn wrote:
666bender wrote:
Demoyn wrote:
666bender wrote:

My cleric , at lvl 10, never hit with attack #2 .

It's -7 more than the first one. (Power attack)
Viral strike offer +7 free damage- greet for it.

Instead of choosing a sub-par feat, why don't you just try building your cleric better?

Edit: actually... TWO sub-par feats, since you obviously took furious focus if your second attack is at -7.

why subpar?

Because math.

How i love futile answer ....

Battle cleric has few attacks, and so so tonhit.
Hitting once hard > missing second a lot .


666bender wrote:
Demoyn wrote:
666bender wrote:
Demoyn wrote:
666bender wrote:

My cleric , at lvl 10, never hit with attack #2 .

It's -7 more than the first one. (Power attack)
Viral strike offer +7 free damage- greet for it.

Instead of choosing a sub-par feat, why don't you just try building your cleric better?

Edit: actually... TWO sub-par feats, since you obviously took furious focus if your second attack is at -7.

why subpar?

Because math.

How i love futile answer ....

Battle cleric has few attacks, and so so tonhit.
Hitting once hard > missing second a lot .

Clerics have a lower BAB so you'll get vital strike really late. Also if you're going into battle and wanting to be effective you'll have a high STR or DEX for hitting, plus boosters probably like divine power. So it comes to furious focus is a waste because your first hit should have an easy time hitting, weapon focus does the same thing till lv 6. At level ten it's only a -2 to your first hit -1 if you trade it for weapon focus which will help all hits. So you're using a feat for a little boost to hit

LV 10 battle cleric (probably not fully optimized)
str 16(base)+2(race)+4(belt)=22 +6
BAB 7
+2 weapon
divine power +3
righteous might +4 strength
power attack -2
weapon focus +1

so you have a normal power attack to hit of 14 no buffs, 15 righteous might, 17 divine power, 18 both for your first hit. furious focus is just a +2. To compare a fighter off the same stats has like +18 to hit with weapon focus, greater focus and weapon training and power attack.
So you're already not far behind the fighter with your 17. You should be hitting most the time anyways, another +2 shouldn't be making a huge difference.

Now vital strike is adding 2d6 or 3d6 or ~7 or 10.5 damage
you already have a +18 or +21 to damge. Full attacking is better, if you hit your second hit 1/3 it's still doing equal to better then vital striking 3 times. So it's fine to add for those times you can't full attack, but the question is is it worth the feat for you.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

At level 10, +17, fully buffed, pretty much isn't going to hit anything on a 2.

With an average enemy AC of 25, you hit on an 8, 13 with a secondary...meaning your secondary misses 2/3 of the time. In all, against AC 25, you're basically going to average hitting once a round.

Once a round with Vital Strike sounds more attractive then, no?

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

At level 10, +17, fully buffed, pretty much isn't going to hit anything on a 2.

With an average enemy AC of 25, you hit on an 8, 13 with a secondary...meaning your secondary misses 2/3 of the time. In all, against AC 25, you're basically going to average hitting once a round.

Once a round with Vital Strike sounds more attractive then, no?

==Aelryinth

You're hitting about as well as the fighter, the +2 doesn't make a huge difference, also I said in my post, if you secondary hits 1/3 it's doing more than 3 hits with vital strike on average. Not saying you can't use vital strike and have it work for you, I'm just showing "why subpar?" I'm not against using vital strike if it works for you. But I am showing the "because math" of why it's a subpar option. I also could have estimated a bit low on some of it, you can flank for a +2 for all hits, having haste gives another 1, all making it even more worthwhile to full attack.

The Exchange

Aelryinth wrote:

At level 10, +17, fully buffed, pretty much isn't going to hit anything on a 2.

With an average enemy AC of 25, you hit on an 8, 13 with a secondary...meaning your secondary misses 2/3 of the time. In all, against AC 25, you're basically going to average hitting once a round.

Once a round with Vital Strike sounds more attractive then, no?

==Aelryinth

He said it wasn't optimized. At level 10 he'd have two stat bumps, a better weapon, a better belt, and divine favor up. He hits on a two.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Demoyn wrote:
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Have we discussed the Cave Druid/Carnivorous Ooze monstrosity yet?

Not yet but it's pretty horrendous.

Either 6 level of cave druid, the rest barb, + shaping focus. Or druid 10 rest barb. Carnivorous crystal has a 7d8 slam attack. Since that's a weird point on the progression scale we can be conservative and assume it scales as 6d8. Meaning it would go to 8d8 with INA, 16d8 with strong jaw + INA, and 48d8 with strong jaw, INA, and improved vital strike. Toss in Furious Focus and that's 384 damage before modifiers.

You could honestly have the best build design in the world, but the second you suggest furious focus every person who's even remotely interested in optimizing is going to stop paying attention, because even the most novice optimizer knows that furious focus is useless by now.

Derp, I meant Furious Finish, the one that maximizes your damage dice at the cost of ending your rage.

Aelryinth wrote:

For the 7d6 Carniv Crystal, I'd go 9d6 then 12d6 to get it back on progression. You could also treat it as 4d10 and go 6d10, 8d10.

==+Aelryinth

Carnivorous Crystals are 7d8, not 7d6

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Demoyn wrote:
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Have we discussed the Cave Druid/Carnivorous Ooze monstrosity yet?

Not yet but it's pretty horrendous.

Either 6 level of cave druid, the rest barb, + shaping focus. Or druid 10 rest barb. Carnivorous crystal has a 7d8 slam attack. Since that's a weird point on the progression scale we can be conservative and assume it scales as 6d8. Meaning it would go to 8d8 with INA, 16d8 with strong jaw + INA, and 48d8 with strong jaw, INA, and improved vital strike. Toss in Furious Focus and that's 384 damage before modifiers.

You could honestly have the best build design in the world, but the second you suggest furious focus every person who's even remotely interested in optimizing is going to stop paying attention, because even the most novice optimizer knows that furious focus is useless by now.

Derp, I meant Furious Finish, the one that maximizes your damage dice at the cost of ending your rage.

Aelryinth wrote:

For the 7d6 Carniv Crystal, I'd go 9d6 then 12d6 to get it back on progression. You could also treat it as 4d10 and go 6d10, 8d10.

==+Aelryinth

Carnivorous Crystals are 7d8, not 7d6

Gak. What a crazy damage figure.

The closest base figure would be 9d6, 9-54 vs 7-56 is actually identical. So the increase would be to 12 or 13d6, then 18d6.

==Aelryinth


Are we talking about dice size increases, because I would be interested to know if there is a table that goes beyond the one given in the books, as it isn't always enough for skew builds that get crazy dice size increases?

Paizo Glitterati Robot

Removed a post. This kind of comment really has no place in the Advice forum.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Standard size progression is:

Baseline
Baseline + 50%
Baseline +100%, becomes new baseline.
(Repeat)

Effectively, base damage doubles every two size increases.

This becomes important when using Greater Mighty Wallop on your 20th level monk with Superior Unarmed Strike that just read a scroll of Giant size and is now Colossal. Colossal +4 is some hefty damage...

==Aelryinth


wintersrage wrote:

I think the best option for damage increase would be a half giant from the ultimate psionic book they have powerful build which lets them count as large for anything beneficial medium for the same thing.

Also if you convince your dm to allow you to use the Titan mauler as it was originally intended as being able to use over sized weapons even over sized 2 handed weapons and allows you to gain the benefit of enlarge person when you rage you could be using a colossal+ falchion doing 12d6+2(strength)+ power attack + weapon enhancement bonus and thats before vital strike.

There's a half-giant Aegis archetype that gets a single slam attack. Starts off at 1d8, then becomes 2d8 at 6th, 3d8 at 11th, and 4d8 at 16th. Now, grab Improved Natural Attack, the Vital Strike chain, and grow to Huge size . . .


Aelryinth wrote:
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Demoyn wrote:
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Have we discussed the Cave Druid/Carnivorous Ooze monstrosity yet?

Not yet but it's pretty horrendous.

Either 6 level of cave druid, the rest barb, + shaping focus. Or druid 10 rest barb. Carnivorous crystal has a 7d8 slam attack. Since that's a weird point on the progression scale we can be conservative and assume it scales as 6d8. Meaning it would go to 8d8 with INA, 16d8 with strong jaw + INA, and 48d8 with strong jaw, INA, and improved vital strike. Toss in Furious Focus and that's 384 damage before modifiers.

You could honestly have the best build design in the world, but the second you suggest furious focus every person who's even remotely interested in optimizing is going to stop paying attention, because even the most novice optimizer knows that furious focus is useless by now.

Derp, I meant Furious Finish, the one that maximizes your damage dice at the cost of ending your rage.

Aelryinth wrote:

For the 7d6 Carniv Crystal, I'd go 9d6 then 12d6 to get it back on progression. You could also treat it as 4d10 and go 6d10, 8d10.

==+Aelryinth

Carnivorous Crystals are 7d8, not 7d6

Gak. What a crazy damage figure.

The closest base figure would be 9d6, 9-54 vs 7-56 is actually identical. So the increase would be to 12 or 13d6, then 18d6.

==Aelryinth

sorry for the thread necro

Well, thanks to the new faq we can now do an official calculation.
7d8 converts to 8d6, then goes up by two steps on the chart for each effective size increase. So 12d6 with INA, presumably 24d6 with strong jaw on top of that due to going off the chart and the wording of the spell. Total everything up and we get 144+misc damage plus another 144 for every vital strike feat. Not quite as good as my initial calculations, but still pretty decent imo.


cnetarian wrote:

Was thinking about greater grappling and vital strike, and it could be fairly useful, a quick concept build.

Random Name (Randy) The Wrestler
Orc +4STR, -2WIS,-2INT,-2CHR
15PB
STR 18 +4 = 22
CON 11
DEX 15
INT 7 -2 = 5
WIS 7 -2 = 5
CHR 7 -2 = 5
(level points go 1 to CON then rest STR)

Barbarian Brutal Pugilist

Level 1: fast movement, rage, improved unarmed strike (feat), +1 rage round (FC)
level 2: savage grapple, raging grapple (rage), +1 rage round (FC)
level 3: pit fighter +1 grapple CMB, improved grapple (feat), +1 rage round (FC)
level 4: animal fury (rage), +1 CON, +1 rage round (FC)
level 5: feat to be retrained next level (feat), improved savage grapple, +1 rage round (FC)
level 6: superstition (rage), greater grapple (retrained feat), +1 rage round (FC)
level 7: DR 1/-, vital strike (feat), +1 rage round (FC)

magic items: anaconda coils as soon as possible.

With anaconda's coils the barbarian would enter a rage, move to an enemy, grapple and make an IUS strike and a constrict attack for from the belt. After grappling the barbarian would bite (animal fury), maintain grapple as a move action, inflict damage with grapple, constrict attack from belt, vital strike as a standard action.

Greater Grapple is what springs to mind for me as well. I don't even think it needs to be that in depth, though your build is certainly interesting.

Think about how obscure and feat intensive the Grapple lineup can be and it just seems easier to leave it at Greater Grapple and pick up Vital Strike to make the most of your standard attack action rather than screwing around with Jaw breaker, Neck breaker, coccyx breaker, and whatever the hell else feats they're trying to add to make that one-trick pony prance the prettiest.

The Vital Strike stuff gives you something interesting to do when you otherwise can't full attack or grapple. More grapple feats are just more grapple feats.

Mages don't like being grappled. It shuts them down pretty hard. If you've got grapple at all you're set to give them a bad day (or even if you don't. What are they going to do? Hit you with an AOO?). Greater Grapple and Vital Strike seem like a solid few feats to flesh out for anyone with Martial Flexibility, and I coul definitely imagine a few builds centered around the combo.

101 to 141 of 141 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Vital Strike vs Full Attack All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.