Hello Messageboards!
I've read a lot of threads on here over the last several years and this is finally my first post!
I've been a PC in 3 pathfinder games over the last 3 years, and even though 2 of them ended rather early, I found them very fun and have been trying to get another group together for some time now. I finally have a group of reliable people who are excited to play, but I am the only person in the group who is willing, or has the experience, to GM. I am willing to do this, as I want to get the group going, so I'm looking for any advice for a first time GM.
I'll lay out the situation:
I want to run an Adventure Path as opposed to a home-brew. While I understand this does limit me somewhat, I think I would prefer the structure for my first run, especially since most of my players will be playing their first or second game ever. I've heard that Rise of the Runelords is a good adventure to start with, so that's the one I have picked up. Though this leads to a concern I have with the character choices my group has initially come up with.
My focus of this is to make sure my players have fun and enjoy playing their characters, (that's how you GM right?) and in the interest of that, I have some worries about what they have told me they want to play. I have allowed all classes/races and select 3rd party material, and so the current choices they have made are:
Taninim Draconic Exemplar from Rite Publishing (aka a dragon if you are unfamiliar with the material) Class Info Here
Human Samurai with a Hawsie
"Something sneaky" (ninja/rogue/etc)
"Something healy" (cleric/paladin/vitalist)
The healy and sneaky I think will be fine, but the samurai and "dragon" are where my concern lies. Draconic exemplar starts as small, and grows as it gains level.
Now, I love dragons, which is why I want to allow this choice, but my concern lies in the later levels when the exemplar grows to huge and gargantuan size (I doubt we will reach 20 to give it colossal). The samurais horse also falls into the same category.
From what I've read and seen so far, RoTRL seems to favour inside encounters over outside ones, and I'm afraid the dragon and horse won't get to see much use. Albeit the dragon can gain as skill that makes it better at squeezing in small spaces and the samurai can fight without a mount, I don't want my party to be disappointed if they aren't able to effectively use their characters.
All that being said, I'm wondering what some other opinion's on this situation might be? Will the dragon and horse/samurai be fine with their occasional restrictions or should I suggest the players pick a different class.
I've also read that spellcasting can be very helpful in this AP which we don't currently have much of, so thoughts on that are also welcome!
Like I said, this is my first post, so hopefully I didn't muck it up too bad :P All advice is welcomed and appreciated.
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I think you are right to use an AP rather than home brew. I wish I had done that.
If it is not too late, I recommend pulling back on 3rd party material. I revere dragons, as you do. I think a better outlet for that is the Dragon Disciple prestige class. I understand that it takes a while to get there (no early entry - you need 5 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana)) but the class allows just about any mix of melee and sorcery the player wants.
I agree the adventure path is probably better. I am currently creating my first campaign mostly from scratch. and just let the players know that there will be plenty of places the mount and dragon thing cant go if they are cool let it be or they could want something else.For your first time DMing, especially with newish players I wouldn't include psionics. The vitalist one is the one I am familiar with. I am playing skulls and shackles with someone playing one and the DM has sworn to never allow psionics again. the vitalist can heal from miles away at later levels, siphon damage from allies, and forcibly enter foe minds. and if you allow the players access to psionics then you could and should use them. the DM who ran Rise of the Runelords nearly killed a party of 7 or 8 people all around lvl 10 or 11 with a fighter and a vitalist. that is a scary healer. but I wish you the best of luck I had a blast playing the Rise of the Runelords it is lots of fun.
Thanks for the reply! Puts my mind at ease a little bit about using an AP, there are a lot of mixed reviews about them.
As far as the 3rd party material, it really comes down to the Exemplar and possibly the psionics if the "healy" one decides to play vitalist. I've had a vitalist in party before and didn't have a problem with it, so I'm not concerned with that one.
The exemplar on the other hand...The player who wants it owns the book made by Rite and I looked it over. I have no problems with it as far as balance goes, it is just a matter of dragon size vs dungeon size that may become and issue. I have suggested to him alternates such as Dragon Disciple or even Saurian Shaman Druid, but he really has his heart set on playing a "dragon".
I don't want to deny them that if it can be helped, although for their own sake I'm debating it. I don't want a big dragon always stuck outside while all his friends are inside adventuring after all :P
DRACONIC BLOODLINE BLOODRAGER PLZ
You can have him play Lizardfolk or something too.
I don't have that book so I'm not sure what to say but... grant him a custom feat that gives him a "controlled" form - it doesn't gain the size bonus or the reach, but it gains other cool stuff? Attack, hit, bonus to DC to breath weapon?
Also the Samurai can go for an archetype that gives away the mount, Sword Saint is one and you could also adapt the Daring Champion.
Under the Draconic Gifts section of the class, there are two abilities for the dragon, "Humanoid Form" and "Animal Form" which function like "Alter Self" and "Beast Shape 1 and 2" respectively. Along with the "Lithe Movement", which allows him to squeeze into places with reduced penalties, I feel like him taking at least one of those will make it playable 80%+ of the time, even while in dungeons. Thoughts?
The narrow frame and Sword Saint are both great suggestions! Either of those should so nicely to fix that issue.
best thing to do is talk to the player about your concerns and they will then have to decide and live with which ever they pick. another option for him is to play a sorcerer with the dragon bloodline they get the form of the dragon feats which are awesome and can let you pick your form. by the time they can get that spell they could be in that form for some time especially with the extend meta feat. or you could give him access to a custom spell or item. it lets the pc assume a humanoid form for so many minutes a level. form of the dragon is CL13. so he has to pay for an item of that cost and it lasts for 13 minutes or you could make it so many hours a day consecutively used or not. do remind this pc is a dragon that gets big and there is a lot of time spent in cities and towns too and most places wont want that creature there. by level 8 the pc might have to sit outside of towns too. people fear dragons for a reason. this race says they resemble true dragons and which ever one the pc looks like people will assume that is what the pc is. if he is red cause fire is awesome other adventurers will try to kill him and most people will flee. if your player still wants to play this one you should play to the stereotype. I have been doing that in mu campaign and the players seem to like it. the half orc loves it. this creates a great chance for brilliant roll playing. sorry I tend to ramble
Don't worry about rambling, I tend to go on tangents all the time! Your thoughts are appreciated :) I agree that being a dragon has the potential for some awesome RP, and since the "Animal Form" and "Humanoid Form" can allow him to shrink or disguise himself, I feel that could work well.
I will discuss this with him and say I will allow him to play as the dragon, but strongly suggest one of the alternate form abilities and note that sometimes fighting will occur in cramped locations.
My focus of this is to make sure my players have fun and enjoy playing their characters, (that's how you GM right?)
What?! HERESY! You must ALWAYS make your players miserable and limit their choices and shout "NO" at every opportunity!
Seriously, though. That's a fantastic attitude to go into it with. You keep that up, and you'll be a great GM.
That being said, I visibly winced when you said you were allowing 3p stuff. Our group does as well and loves it, but we're all experienced players. How experienced are these people you're playing with, particularly the player who's got his little heart set on playing a dragon? I'd be all for it in a group of people who I had a really solid handle on, particularly play style and system mastery. If you aren't absolutely confident in his abilities, maybe you could suggest he start out with something similar until he has more experience - a lizardfolk, a kobold, an imported dragonborn, or heck even just slap the half-dragon template on his character (though personally I'd still be twitchy about that too). He can always have the true dragon character backed up if something unfortunate happens to his first character, or if you become confident in his abilities he could always switch characters.
Just my two cp. Keep on doing what you're doing, and good luck.
Well that's always good to hear!
Yea I have no problem using 3p stuff as long as I don't feel it will mess with the story or balance of the game. The one set on playing the dragon is the next most experienced aside from me, hes played in 2 games before, once till level 10 and the other to level 6, so I'm fairly confident he knows what hes doing. I'm pretty confident he will do the character justice since he seems pretty adamant about playing it.
The other players in the group aren't as experienced, though all of them are familiar with Pathfinder and all of them have played at least once. I've already run by them the idea of having a dragon in the group and they didn't have a problem with it, so I feel that should be okay.
Your two cp are appreciated!
I personally disallowed 3rd party publishers for my first homebrew, but also have an "ask me about it" policy about using the Race Builder from the Advanced Race Guide. With these in mind if a player had expressed an extremely strong desire to play as a dragon/dragon-like creature, I would have allowed the building of a custom race so long as I vetted it.
The Race Builder is, after all, technically Paizo Publishing content ;)
I limited race selection to 20 RP as well in the race builder system.
Alternatively if you're still trying to convince him to take another route that would let his character fit in a hallway, he might be more interested in "Dragon Form" spell lines if there were ways to increase the duration. You might want to look up things like that and show them to him to see if it makes him willing to go with the "Human most of the time" character rather than the "Dragon most of the time" set-up.
If someone makes a convincing argument as to why they want to play something and I feel it won't make things unbalanced I have no problem allowing whatever :)
I was surprised this class/race was from Rite and not from the Race Builder upon seeing it the first time; I actually think what Rite has done is really cool.
The Exemplar class can learn the "Humanoid Form" at level 3 from Draconic Gifts, but I suppose I could grant that at level 1 instead and just not give one at level 3. The only problem is that in human form, he won't have any way to fight things other than to just punch them, which wouldn't be very effective. "Animal Form" however, would allow for reduced combat ability for greater maneuverability, but less so from a role playing standpoint.
"Lithe Movement" would allow for a huge creature to take up the space of a large creature, so that isn't bad either. And I suppose he wouldnt only need that at level 8 and after, since before that he would be medium or smaller.
I personally disallowed 3rd party publishers for my first homebrew, but also have an "ask me about it" policy about using the Race Builder from the Advanced Race Guide. With these in mind if a player had expressed an extremely strong desire to play as a dragon/dragon-like creature, I would have allowed the building of a custom race so long as I vetted it.
The Race Builder is, after all, technically Paizo Publishing content ;)
I limited race selection to 20 RP as well in the race builder system.
Alternatively if you're still trying to convince him to take another route that would let his character fit in a hallway, he might be more interested in "Dragon Form" spell lines if there were ways to increase the duration. You might want to look up things like that and show them to him to see if it makes him willing to go with the "Human most of the time" character rather than the "Dragon most of the time" set-up.
TWENTY FULL RP?!? That's frigging Christmas.
Huh, yea upon a look at the race builder, 20 RP is in fact, Christmas :P
TWENTY FULL RP?!? That's frigging Christmas.I personally disallowed 3rd party publishers for my first homebrew, but also have an "ask me about it" policy about using the Race Builder from the Advanced Race Guide. With these in mind if a player had expressed an extremely strong desire to play as a dragon/dragon-like creature, I would have allowed the building of a custom race so long as I vetted it.
The Race Builder is, after all, technically Paizo Publishing content ;)
I limited race selection to 20 RP as well in the race builder system.
Alternatively if you're still trying to convince him to take another route that would let his character fit in a hallway, he might be more interested in "Dragon Form" spell lines if there were ways to increase the duration. You might want to look up things like that and show them to him to see if it makes him willing to go with the "Human most of the time" character rather than the "Dragon most of the time" set-up.
Most of my players have been sticking around the 15 RP mark in their race selection. Plus, like I said before, homebrew, I develop the encounters, so I can add that fifth creature to the encounter as I learn what the party is capable of.
I have GMed RotRL (first half using converted original and second half using the AE) and it's a very good AP, there are some issues but let's discuss those later (and in the RotRL subforum).
About the space issue, only the first two books have (serious) space issues, at 3rd book and after you should be ok with large and huge (gargatuan might be a problem until you hit book 6), RotRL ends at level 17 (nearly a full "dungeon florr" and the final battle).
I don't have the time right now to check the dragon exemplar class, if i find the time i will check it later.
I have GMed RotRL (first half using converted original and second half using the AE) and it's a very good AP, there are some issues but let's discuss those later (and in the RotRL subforum).
About the space issue, only the first two books have (serious) space issues, at 3rd book and after you should be ok with large and huge (gargatuan might be a problem until you hit book 6), RotRL ends at level 17 (nearly a full "dungeon florr" and the final battle).I don't have the time right now to check the dragon exemplar class, if i find the time i will check it later.
Thanks for the input! The Exemplar only becomes large at level 8, so that should actually end up working out well as far as progression of level/space to fight goes. And likewise gargantuan is level 16, so I figure that'll be book six if the adventure ends around 17.