Oloch the Warpriest Discussion


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion

Scarab Sages

What is the deal with Oloch?

He has no allies and yet all of his powers are designed to benefit others (Yes, I know he can heal himself).

He has the healing power that Kyra had and another power that is very situational and cannot benefit himself. I found this second power to be a challenge to find the right situation for. At first it was just when I had 2+ weapons, which seems like a good power to have when loaded with weapons. I find that it isn't worth it to pocket a blessing, though. The very best use of the power I have found is if someone is fighting the villain and that someone is not me. He can then use extra blessings and all of his weapons to help that final battle. But, beyond those situations, I don't find Oloch all that fun to play.

Kyra had a similar limitation. She had the healing power, and a very situational undead combat bonus. Is the healing power just that good? I find it to be situational as well, so the characters are shackled to two situational powers.

I play two characters and the other I play is Damiel and boy is he fun to play. He can do all sorts of crazy things for himself and for others. In comparison I just feel something is missing from Oloch. Either that or the power level attached to the healing power is overblown? I don't know, but I am trying to squeeze every once of fun out of him like squeezing blood from a stone.


Oloch appears to start out very slow. He's not going to shine until you have several power feats.

Try playing a scenario where he has three power feats already - one in hand size, one to reveal for +2, and one to put his revealed cards back in hand at the start of his turn. Then play. I haven't done this yet, but he looks solid, even powerful once he's hit this point... He can give out +2's to other people all day and then still have a full hand on his turn.

If I play him, I'll probably dump most of my power feats into hand size...

Scarab Sages

Orbis Orboros wrote:

Oloch appears to start out very slow. He's not going to shine until you have several power feats.

Try playing a scenario where he has three power feats already - one in hand size, one to reveal for +2, and one to put his revealed cards back in hand at the start of his turn. Then play. I haven't done this yet, but he looks solid, even powerful once he's hit this point... He can give out +2's to other people all day and then still have a full hand on his turn.

If I play him, I'll probably dump most of my power feats into hand size...

Great thinking. Yeah, the first thing I thought was that he needed more cards in hand to make him work better, but at the same time bumping to +2 or getting the displayed cards back at the start of his turn might just be as powerful. Once you have all three....I can see him being pretty powerful. I knew if I stuck with him I would be rewarded, but the early game with him is rough.

While in a 4-player game he could be really strong, I would not recommend him at all for solo-play as he has almost no tools to help himself in the early game. Maybe after he picks a role, but before that....nothing except turning armor and blessings into heals.


A couple of things

First, the healing power is very good, but many people don't find it fun. Some players really enjoy empowering others. You may be a player who enjoys playing devastating combos yourself, not setting up someone else, and that's alright.

Second, Oloch is an incredibly slow building character. His power doesn't look great out of the gate, but when he gets +2 per card, can reset them at the start of his turn and has a five card hand size it becomes far stronger. So, it makes sense that he is limited now. He will get far better as the campaign progresses (like Seelah fro RotR)


Casey Weston wrote:
Great thinking. Yeah, the first thing I thought was that he needed more cards in hand to make him work better, but at the same time bumping to +2 or getting the displayed cards back at the start of his turn might just be as powerful. Once you have all three....I can see him being pretty powerful. I knew if I stuck with him I would be rewarded, but the early game with him is rough.

I would suggest going for the hand size first - I always suggest that on characters with less than 5 hand size. Four just isn't enough, you'll feel like you're sitting there doing nothing all game. This is triply emphasized with Oloch: weapons over spells for combat means you stick with one weapon in hand instead of refreshing spells; holding on to armor just reduces your hand size until you use it; and he lacks allies to explore with, so he'll feel extra slow.

Next, grab the start of turn power. While the other one does double the strength of each reveal, doing the start of turn thing gives the power virtually no cost, making it far more likely to be worth using.

Finally, grab the double bonus per reveal power so that each reveal becomes a potent play.

Unless a check is vital, always reveal the blessings for the solid plus two and then use the blessings on yourself, particularly for exploring since you have no allies.

Don't let weapons or armor clog your hand - use them as quickly as possible to allow yourself to draw other cards like blessings (obviously don't ditch your last weapon). Bury the armor as soon as possible so it can't be cured, and play cures to get your blessings back (with no allies for exploring, only use the healing power in dire straits). Up your hand size as often as you can bring yourself to do it - the larger the hand, the more cards you can reveal. He should get much stronger with each hand size increase.

Lastly, consider pairing up with a squishy character like a bard who actually has a use for armor and give it to him, accepting a blessing in return if he's willing. Everyone wins - you don't have to draw pesky armor, the bard can save himself from a failed combat, and if the bard's nice, you have another blessing to abuse this scenario.

---

Note - this is all theory as I haven't played him or S&S yet, but it should pan out in reality.


Why bury the armor? I would use them for the heal, so his blessings are free for explores and buffs.


I've played Oloch through the starting basic scenarios. He has some issues, the biggest being hand size 4 with favored card type armor...

Being able to discard the armor for healing ended up being very useful, since the rest of the party burned out fairly quick. One trick is that if you know he's going to be healing next turn, you can display as many cards as you want to help people out since he won't be exploring on his own turn.

His power feats seem to have the potential to make him ridiculous though. When he has a decent hand size, he'll be able to display his blessings and weapons to give nice flat bonuses to ally checks, while getting them right back in his hand when he starts his turn. He's also the only character with a d12 for strength, making him a solid pick for the Topaz of Strength.


Orbis is a top-notch player, but he has a very specific play style, one that works best with characters that reward rapid cycling (it's not an accident that he loves Lini, Lem and Seoni). I don't think its the best style for heavy tanks like Seelah and Oloch.

Don't ditch those armors. You want them to heal and they will be central to your defensive strategy when you choose Shield of Gorum (and yes, you should choose Shield of GOrum). I would play Oloch as a character who hands out bonus to others, keeps his fiend shield and prevents damage, rather than someone who does a lot on his turn.


Fenris235 wrote:
Why bury the armor? I would use them for the heal, so his blessings are free for explores and buffs.

If the heal didn't also take up his explore, I'd agree. No, use cures to heal and only use his ability if you must. Also, if you heal your armors back, you will end up dead-drawing them again.

I know not everyone feels the way I do about armor, and I know S&S is tougher than RotR was, but seriously, armor does not suit this guy's playstyle. He'd be better with no armor at all in his deck, especially if it got him some allies or more blessings. I might even go so far as to say he'd be better with no armor, and no other changes, even though his deck size would be down. But I can't be sure about that.


Orbis Orboros wrote:
Fenris235 wrote:
Why bury the armor? I would use them for the heal, so his blessings are free for explores and buffs.

If the heal didn't also take up his explore, I'd agree. No, use cures to heal and only use his ability if you must. Also, if you heal your armors back, you will end up dead-drawing them again.

I know not everyone feels the way I do about armor, and I know S&S is tougher than RotR was, but seriously, armor does not suit this guy's playstyle. He'd be better with no armor at all in his deck, especially if it got him some allies or more blessings. I might even go so far as to say he'd be better with no armor, and no other changes, even though his deck size would be down. But I can't be sure about that.

Eeeh, maybe early on, but his Shield of Gorum role can actually get ridiculous with armor. Just discard or recharge it to reduce all damage to 0. He can also reveal armor to reduce damage party members take, which will be very helpful with the before and after combat damage monsters. I don't know how common items that reduce damage will be, but so far there are no guaranteed Sihedron Medallions to help with that.

Armor still isn't incredibly useful right now, but I think Oloch can make it work. That being said, I wouldn't ever recommend putting more into his deck :P


Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
Orbis is a top-notch player

Aw, shucks!

(o^.^o)

Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
Orbis ... has a very specific play style, one that works best with characters that reward rapid cycling (it's not an accident that he loves Lini, Lem and Seoni). I don't think its the best style for heavy tanks like Seelah and Oloch.

In general, I'd agree, but Oloch doesn't have the hand to be holding on to armors. If he could reveal armors for his power I might reverse my stance. Also, the OP was asking how to make him more fun... Standing around not dying isn't that much fun, I think most would agree (and you won't be buffing much either with 25% or more of your hand being armor).

Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
Don't ditch those armors. You want them to heal and they will be central to your defensive strategy when you choose Shield of Gorum (and yes, you should choose Shield of GOrum). I would play Oloch as a character who hands out bonus to others, keeps his fiend shield and prevents damage, rather than someone who does a lot on his turn.

I disagree with the "SHOULD choose shield of Gorum," but if you do, you will want armors, yes... but it's not like you can play him without them in his deck. I'm just saying don't use them when you're not the Shield of Gorum yet.

And I still say you should be curing most of the time, and very rarely using the heal ability.


Mechalibur wrote:
Orbis Orboros wrote:
Fenris235 wrote:
Why bury the armor? I would use them for the heal, so his blessings are free for explores and buffs.

If the heal didn't also take up his explore, I'd agree. No, use cures to heal and only use his ability if you must. Also, if you heal your armors back, you will end up dead-drawing them again.

I know not everyone feels the way I do about armor, and I know S&S is tougher than RotR was, but seriously, armor does not suit this guy's playstyle. He'd be better with no armor at all in his deck, especially if it got him some allies or more blessings. I might even go so far as to say he'd be better with no armor, and no other changes, even though his deck size would be down. But I can't be sure about that.

Eeeh, maybe early on, but his Shield of Gorum role can actually get ridiculous with armor. Just discard or recharge it to reduce all damage to 0. He can also reveal armor to reduce damage party members take, which will be very helpful with the before and after combat damage monsters. I don't know how common items that reduce damage will be, but so far there are no guaranteed Sihedron Medallions to help with that.

Armor still isn't incredibly useful right now, but I think Oloch can make it work. That being said, I wouldn't ever recommend putting more into his deck :P

Alright, IF you're going Shield of Gorum to use that power,his armor could be useful. But you're still going to want a big hand, and there's only so many power feats to go around. By the time you've got what you need, I feel the game would be pretty much over.

Still a valid point, though. I'll amend my statement: He'd be better if he didn't START with any armors.

Satisfied? :)

---

P.S.

I never used Sihedron Medallions, either. Closest thing to armor I ever liked was the Ring of Protection, and that's because my RotR box is skewed to have extra auto damage monsters like the Enchanter.

Scarab Sages

Let's not forget that many later armors (at least in Rise of the Runelords) let you recharge them when you reset your hand. So maybe in the early game they aren't so useful, but they are more versatile late game.


Casey Weston wrote:
Let's not forget that many later armors (at least in Rise of the Runelords) let you recharge them when you reset your hand. So maybe in the early game they aren't so useful, but they are more versatile late game.

Yes, but even those armors are a dead card in your hand until you get to reset it. I always tried to get rid of those, as well.

Sorry, I don't want to sound too forceful here, I've said my part, take it or leave it, I don't mean to be harping on - the vast majority of my posts should be read lightheartedly. I just think armor is terrible in this game with very few exceptions (snakeskin tunic being one of them)... and characters that are very concerned with hand size and what's in it, like Oloch, are the worst possible choices for armor, especially when they have such good combat stats and the ability to heal (in both a power and divine spell slots that will likely be cures). This is mitigated somewhat by his cool shield ability, but I think they chose a poor character to put that on, as it clashes with his unique reveal ability.

Sorry. I'm a very opinionated person once I make up my mind, and I hate innefficiency / lack of optimization. :D

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Fun fact: A properly built Shield of Gorum Oloch actually can't be killed by the Runewell, or other potential mandatory "bury a card every turn" effects. You have at least 7 armor/weapons in your deck that can never be buried.

It's a very strong defensive role. You don't have to have played the armor or weapon you're burying for its power. Heck the power turns into healing if you're burying things from your discard.

If you want your character to be "invincible" it's not a bad way to go.


I think, at this point int he life-cycle of the game, we can eager that experience players have different views about the value of armor and that if you don't like the way armor functions their are certain characters you will enjoy playing more than others.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I cared about my Ring of Protection way more than any armor as Merisiel (stupid Enchanters). Early on as Seelah I would straight-up discard armor on drawing it (before I had magical stuff) because it was tanking her ability to do anything. Even with five hand size Seelah's amount of armor can be a pain in the butt. I've had plenty of times where my first draw is a nice assortment of blessings and weapons (including the Horsechopper I hold for Lini between games) only to have to discard all of them, because I didn't draw an armor. What's in the next hand? Why, it's three pieces of armor! And my entire first turn is wasted getting rid of them! :D

I feel like armor is borderline worthless until... AP 3 or 4. I don't remember when we actually started needing to use it regularly, and even then it was mostly for pre-encounter damage against henchmen and villains. When tanky casters like Kyra get their hand size up to 7 and have armors you can discard to reduce all damage, then armor feels pretty nice to have around. Still, for safety I prefer a RoP (or the AP6 equivalents, some of which i've only seen in my dreams). Reveal for 1 damage of any type is good enough for the majority of encounters.

I like that Oloch has other things to do with his armor, especially being able to use it as a RoP for anyone in need. I think I said in another thread that Oloch looks like crazy support, and I personally love support characters (with a d12 Strength ain't bad either). He's Seelah-esque, like others have said, and I like Seelah too. But, like with Seelah, you have to suck up a tiny hand size combined with way too much chain mails and wooden shields for a while until you really get rolling. That's too bad! Because they both have some really neat, and very unique powers. But when playing as Seelah, all I could think about was when I got my first two power feats. Before then I felt like I huge drag on the party, especially compared to Lini wrecking house with her Crow in hand.


So, for the sake of relieving boredom:

Why would you not go for the Shield of Gorum Role? I have two main reasons.

1) An extra hand size feat. Oloch likes a big hand so that he has more to reveal and, like everyone, more to do on his turn. Since he has a healing power and can run Cures, never mind being strong in combat, he's unlikely to die even with a large hand size. Since I would be playing him for the reveal ability, this is the biggest draw for me.

2)The banish ally to explore power. Normally I don't like abilities like this, but this one is an exception. To begin with, most of the time mid to late adventure path, when an ally is encountered, it is acquired solely to be used immediately for an extra explore, not because anybody wants it in their deck. Furthermore, Oloch has a mere d6 charisma and no diplomacy, and so isn't going to exactly be picking up allies by the bucketload to begin with. Furthermore he lacks allies in his deck, so he has fewer reasons to want to acquire them and more reason to try and get extra explores. Lastly, assuming things work like RotR (maybe you're playing RotR), by the time you get this feat you'll be wanting to banish crappy allies but also explore with them; This ability does both. It's solid.


I will play, since I am bored as well. Look at what you get with three advanced upgrades for Shield of Gorum

Upgrade Hand Size: Everything you say about hand size is correct. The Shield of Gorum would have a hand size of six, compared to seven for the battle Chaplain

Upgraded Blessings: The blessing upgrade for Shield of Gorum is just ridiculous. When you playing blessing of Gorum on your combat checks, add the powers of a staff of minor healing to it. It’s a strong power in its own right, and works for Blessings of Gorum in everyone’s deck. This gives tremendous power and deck building flexibility to your whole team, and brings cycling speed and healing to decks that otherwise lack it. And it will be even more powerful in Organized play if your team plans ahead and takes advantage of it. The blessing upgrade for shield is flat out better than the one for Chaplain, even if the chaplain spends multiple feats.

Reduce Damage to others: Revealing armor to reduce damage to others. This allows Oloch to solve one of the fundamental challenges the game poses, how to deal with non-combat damage, for the whole of his team. Again, it’s a solid power on its own, but gives Oloch tremendous synergy with any other character that benefits other players at the same location. One of the primary disadvantage of grouping up is that you expose your whole team to potential damage. Oloch eliminates that risk, and makes teams like Lem+Valeros+Oloch+Feiya super powerful.

I can’t see ever wanting to give up the above abilities for +1 hand size and a situational free exploration. And the problem gets even worse when the chaplain has to choose his fourth and fifth role power and is forced into some incredibly mediocre abilities, while the Shield has more solid choices available.


I won't deny that, on the whole, Shield of Gorum is better than Battle Chaplain. But I don't think it's enough better to say that you should always go with Sheild over Chaplain.

A quick general note on the blessing - remember that there is a similiar, if slightly weaker, ability on Chaplain. And don't forget that there are only 5 Blessings of Gorum...

Also, to me, because of my play style, I would play Chaplain over Shield most games, I think. Between my love for speedy gameplay and my hatred of armor and smaller hands, that extra card feat weighs more heavily for me than most whereas the armor ability is much less of a deal for me.


If I would always choose Shield and you would always choose Chaplain, it probably means we should give props to the design team for how they build their characters.

Remember that in Organized play you don't have that same 5 blessing limit. We may see most str based melee decks with 3 blessings of Gorum.


Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
Remember that in Organized play you don't have that same 5 blessing limit. We may see most str based melee decks with 3 blessings of Gorum.

You can't play Oloch in Organized Play.

:P


Orbis Orboros wrote:
Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
Remember that in Organized play you don't have that same 5 blessing limit. We may see most str based melee decks with 3 blessings of Gorum.

You can't play Oloch in Organized Play.

:P

Not yet.


Deekow wrote:
Orbis Orboros wrote:
Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
Remember that in Organized play you don't have that same 5 blessing limit. We may see most str based melee decks with 3 blessings of Gorum.

You can't play Oloch in Organized Play.

:P

Not yet.

Maybe not ever. Talking like that is as meaningless as talking about the fact that there could be basic armors in the next base set that are crazy good, enough to reverse my whole opinion on the subject. We can only go on what we know now.

...I hope that didn't come off as harsh.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Basic armors will never be crazy-good ;)

I firmly believe we will see Oloch in OP, and that its more a question of when than if (when a paladin get comes out, Oloch may very well be an unlockable reward, much like Jirelle.)


Orbis Orboros wrote:
Deekow wrote:
Orbis Orboros wrote:
Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
Remember that in Organized play you don't have that same 5 blessing limit. We may see most str based melee decks with 3 blessings of Gorum.

You can't play Oloch in Organized Play.

:P

Not yet.

Maybe not ever. Talking like that is as meaningless as talking about the fact that there could be basic armors in the next base set that are crazy good, enough to reverse my whole opinion on the subject. We can only go on what we know now.

...I hope that didn't come off as harsh.

Maybe not ever. However, they've indicated they're likely going to do the character add on classes in January, and there's no reason they wouldn't continue the trend. The point of saying "not yet" is that saying "You can't play Oloch in Organized Play" doesn't mean the argument is invalid, either. Other characters will be affected by blessing counts, as is, and there may actually be a point, if War Priests are added where that argument is 100% valid.

Telling someone that "talking like that is as meaningless" is invalidating when many things in the discussion are also "just as meaningless" but are worth discussing, anyway.


I'm just saying, when weighing the pros and cons of his roles, bring ingup something that isn't the case now and may never be the case doesn't really hold any swaying power.

I'm sorry if I came off as rude, I didn't know how else to say it.


I never read your post as rude, just wrong ;)


Orbis Orboros wrote:

I'm just saying, when weighing the pros and cons of his roles, bring ingup something that isn't the case now and may never be the case doesn't really hold any swaying power.

I'm sorry if I came off as rude, I didn't know how else to say it.

Saying it may never be the case, doesn't make that any more true than me saying "not yet". If they continue the current development and distribution trend, it's actually more likely that you WILL see Oloch in Organized Play than it is that you won't. That's at least a reasonable enough assumption to make discussion surrounding that eventuality valid. If that doesn't persuade your line of thinking regarding blessings and armor, that's absolutely fine, it wasn't meant to... it doesn't justify invalidating anyone else's opinion or likely speculation on the matter.


Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
I never read your post as rude, just wrong ;)

(¬_¬)


By the way, don't forget that upgraded armors are getting lots of nice reveal and recharge benefits, so that they are useful for things other than preventing damage.

Buckler gun (also a weapon), Blackcloth Armor (+1 to all combat checks that you don't need to prevent damage on), Besmaran Vestments (upgrade to Blackcloth for divine casters),Fortified Shell Armor (+2 Con/fort), Wilderness Studded Leather (+2 Non-Combat Wis/Survival), Sniper's Studded Leather (+2 Ranged Combat or perception), Stanching Buckler (very good for turning crap in your hand/cards you've acquired into cards from your deck that you want), and more.

Yes, they aren't the most exciting card type ever, but having a few in your deck will no longer by the end of days like it was in RotR.


What Orbis said. Some characters start out stronger but have a slower rise (Alahazra), but Oloch has a kind of caveman bashing and light support role until he gets buffed up. If you look ahead he's pretty badass.

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