Can a Magus dipping in Inspired Blade Swashbuckler take Arcane Deed (Inspired Strike)? Would it work with wyroot?


Rules Questions


4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

The Magus Flamboyant Arcana and Arcane Deed arcana allows her to take a Swashbuckler deed at the equivalent Magus level, using arcane points instead of panache.

Flamboyant Arcana:
Advanced Class Guide wrote:
Flamboyant Arcana (Ex): A magus gains the derring-do and opportune parry and riposte deeds from the swashbuckler’s list of deeds. The magus can spend points from his arcane pool as panache points to use these deeds and any other deeds he gains from the deed arcana, but he cannot use points from his arcane pool to use deeds from other classes or those gained by feats, nor can he regain points to his arcane pool as a swashbuckler would regain panache points. Effects that add to, reduce the cost of, or otherwise affect panache or grit don’t affect the arcane pool of a magus with this arcana.

Arcane Deed:
Advanced Class Guide wrote:
Arcane Deed (Ex): When a magus takes this arcana, he can pick any one deed from the swashbuckler class feature as long as that deed can be used by a swashbuckler of his magus level. The magus can use that deed by using points from his arcane pool as the panache points required for that deed. A magus can take this arcana multiple times, each time gaining a new deed. The magus must have the flamboyant arcana (see below) to select this arcana.

If my magus dips 1 level of Inspired Blade Swashbuckler, could she take the replacement Inspired Strike deed as an Arcane Deed (Inspired Strike) arcana at 12?

Inspired Strike:
Advanced Class Guide wrote:

Deeds: The inspired blade gains the following deeds, each of which replaces an existing deed.

Inspired Strike (Ex): At 11th level, an inspired blade can spend 1 panache point when making an attack with a rapier to gain an insight bonus on that attack roll equal to her Intelligence modifier (minimum +1). When an inspired blade hits with an attack augmented by inspired strike, she can spend 1 additional panache point to make the hit a critical threat, though if she does so, she does not regain panache if she confirms that critical threat. The cost of this deed cannot be reduced by abilities such as Signature Deed UC . This ability replaces bleeding wound.

I feel this might be useful since a wyroot ironwood rapier would effectively give 1 arcane point back, making the overall cost 1 arcane point to autothreaten a critical.
Not to mention, dipping into Inspired Blade effectively gives another pool of (Int mod+1) panache to play with (although that wouldn't be used with the Arcane Deed).
Plus, the free Weapon Focus (Rapier) and Weapon Finesse would build up nicely to Fencing Grace.


I don't think it will let you get archetype specific deeds since it says swashbuckler and not swashbuckler(inspired blade)

It would probably be similar to trying to get gunslinger archetype deeds with amateur gunslinger so you might be able to look into those threads for help determining if that idea works.


Hrm, that's an important point to raise. But the Amateur Gunslinger feat has a prerequisite that the Arcane Deed arcana does not -

Ultimate Combat wrote:

Amateur Gunslinger (Combat)

Although you are not a gunslinger, you have and can use grit.
Prerequisite: You have no levels in a class that has the grit class feature.

I would say that specific example is a moot comparison because the feat explicitly disallows you from taking the archetypes in its relevant class. The benefits were 1st-level anyways. Now, the most restrictive interpretation for the Inspired Blade/Magus would be that this build wouldn't even be able to take Inspired Strike or Bleeding Wound Arcane Deeds.

Ultimate Combat wrote:
Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces a specific class feature from its parent class... When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take them all.

So in the Amateur Gunslinger situation, it wasn't even an issue because people were looking to take archetype deeds when they didn't have the archetype. I think the question is if you do take a level in an archetype, whether the "replacement" of all your class features extends to feats that make extremely blanket statements about said class features. Having found only opinions, still looking for Rules, Errata or FAQs. :(


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Archetypes replace everything right from the start at level 1. It's the reason you can't combine archetypes with overlapping class feature changes, even if you are just dipping and leaving the class way before the the issue comes up.

As such, I'd say that if you dipped Inspired Blade Swashbuckler, you would indeed have access to Inspired Strike with Arcane Deed.

That said, i would definitely like more discussion on this issue.


I'm not sure I follow the reasoning behind using this.

Spend two arcane pool points for the ability to deal up to a whopping 12 damage and regain a point?

why not just dip hungry ghost monk or drunken monk in conjunction with the ki arcana? It'd happen at the same level.


Inspired Strike isn't on the Swashbuckler's Deed list, so no. Dipping the class doesn't alter Arcane Deed in any way.

Which is a pity because Inspired Strike is pretty awesome.


Basically taking a archetype of one class (inspired blade in this case) doesn't change anything for another class you have (Magus).

What is available to the Magus is the same whether he has levels in swashbuckler, swashbuckler (inspired blade) or no swashbuckler levels at all.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

"Arcane Deed (Ex): When a magus takes this arcana, he can pick any one deed from the swashbuckler class feature "

From the swashbuckler class feature, not the class feature of a archetype.


This is a very interesting FAQ:

Quote:

Archetypes and Gaining Powers: If an archetype like wildblooded sorcerer grants new class features like bloodline powers, domain powers, or the like, if I don’t have that archetype, can I use feats like Eldritch Heritage or Believer’s Boon and choose the powers granted by the archetype.

No. These powers only exist for the archetypes that grant them. This is particularly important because in some cases, the archetype might trade out non-parallel features to gain those powers. For example, a fey sorcerer with the wildblooded archetype trades out both her bloodline arcana and her 1st-level power to gain a new 1st-level power, but a non-sorcerer using a feat to gain a 1st-level power never had the bloodline arcana to begin with.

posted Feb 7, 2015 | back to top

That said, I'm still not sure where it falls on this issue, since unlike the previous example, you're actually dipping and taking the archetype, giving up access to the thing you would otherwise have access to.

On the other hand, if this was disallowed, then Swashbuckler archetypes which give up specific deeds for other ones can still gain access to those original deeds from another source, right?


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Kaouse wrote:
On the other hand, if this was disallowed, then Swashbuckler archetypes which give up specific deeds for other ones can still gain access to those original deeds from another source, right?

Yes.

The posited Inspired Blade/Magus could take Bleeding Wound via Arcane Deed; as it's a deed from the Swashbuckler class feature.

Really the FAQ you posted lays it out.

The archetype grants new Deeds.

For the purposes of Arcane Deed, you don't have the archetype.

Ergo no Inspired Strike.

But just like a Fey Sorcerer 1/Arcanist 19 can take Eldritch Heritage: Arcane, the Inspired Blade 1/Magus 19 can take Arcane Deed: Bleeding Wound. But the Arcanist can't take Heritage: Sanguine and the Magus can't take Deed: Inspired Strike


I don't think it works but FAQ'ed all the same.

I'm also wondering whether folks think a magus/swashbuckler can use his panache points to fuel deeds he gets from arcana.


Scripps wrote:
I'm also wondering whether folks think a magus/swashbuckler can use his panache points to fuel deeds he gets from arcana.

Yes he can. It doesn't say it replaces the ability to use panache, just that you can use AP.

Dark Archive

It's the same with the trophy hunter ranger in a way... So I'm pretty sure it's a no, as it doesn't in that circumstance.


Scripps wrote:

I don't think it works but FAQ'ed all the same.

I'm also wondering whether folks think a magus/swashbuckler can use his panache points to fuel deeds he gets from arcana.

Nope. Two separate lists of deeds, two separate resource pools.

Doesn't work any more than a Sorcerer 1/Arcanist 19 can cast his Arcanist spells in his Sorcerer slots. The fact that they're both spell slots, and even spell slots used for the same Sorc/Wizard spell list, is irrelevant. They're different features.


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The verdict is still out concerning this FAQ due to unclear wording. It depends on what "if I don't have that archetype" means - does that mean the replacement features are available to the archetype class only, or does a multiclassed character with levels in this archetype class count as having the archetype where the other class levels are concerned. I suspect it's the former, but this FAQ doesn't even take multiclassed characters into consideration, and I think it's vague enough to require further clarification.

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