1. Will multiboxing be a TOS violation?
2. Macros. How complex can we make them before they violate the TOS?
3. Will there be a follow command to get one character to follow another?
4. Will there be target assist options to get one character to automatically target a targeted ally's targets with hostile effects?
Goblin Squad Member
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1. Will multiboxing be a TOS violation?
2. Macros. How complex can we make them before they violate the TOS?
3. Will there be a follow command to get one character to follow another?
4. Will there be target assist options to get one character to automatically target a targeted ally's targets with hostile effects?
1. No
2. Depends, you shouldn't be making macros that are 'fire and forget' type things. If you macro isn't more than a few seconds long, and doesn't loop, you should be safe
3. Unknown
4. Unknown
Stop trying to think of a way to play multiple characters at once and slave them together.
I don't know about 2-4 but No, multiboxing will not be a TOS violation. You can log on to as many characters (other then a Destenys Twins) at the same time on the same account.
I'm referring less to being on more than one account at the same time and more to:
"...play[ing] multiple characters at once and slave[ing] them together."
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Goblin Squad Member
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As much as I'd love Goblinworks to sanction* users automating additional characters, and as much as I've advocated it over the years, I don't think it's going to happen.
* For the literal-minded, I mean "give official permission or approval for (an action)", not "impose a sanction or penalty on".
Well I have multiple first month EE accounts already. I'm basically just wondering what kind of challenges I'm going to have to overcome to give them the level of coordination I want, and for a greenlight from GoblinWorks to multibox them before I invest my time in creating and testing a system that will work for PFO in LotRO.
Not a chance. They come with destiny's twins.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I had four accounts when I played EVE and I fleeted them up together. I could have all four active and training at the same time (since they were separate accounts) and could clear asteroid belts very efficiently. Combat was a problem since I had to Alt-Tab through the accounts to find the right one at the right time. I did okay but certainly for individuals equally skilled would have easily destroyed me because of the extra time it took to tab through my different characters.
You might not be able to run the group as a functional party (well, you could party them up, but they would not be effective in combat) but it would be a real challenge when bad things happen.
I think (and many others think this as well) that multiple characters are viable, but will not likely be playable at the same time. You could have them logged in on standby, or have a passive character standing by your crafting station or the market/auction house in an "as needed" status, but adventuring with multiple characters seems highly impractical.
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I would really appreciate an official Goblinworks response on this. An acknowledgment that you've seen it and are still deciding the answers would be enough.
I'd really just like to know that when I start linking up my accounts via a multiboxing program and possibly using some macros to make them run a bit more smoothly come September 15th that I won't be facing the banhammer.
Edit: Also, since I may be one of the first multiboxers in PFO I'd be willing to provide full details to Goblinworks employees on the programs, hardware, and scripts I'm using and how it's performing if you would find that information useful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Enruel
Do you use Isboxer/Innerspace?? Quit a fan of that myself, and "tolerated" by big companies like SOE and Blizzard.
I say tolerated because no company will ever officially endorse such a third party program.
As Chris Cleary from Arenanet put it:
As with any 3rd party program, use at your own risk. ArenaNet cannot sign off usage of 3rd party programs, as projects often evolve beyond their current implementation and we cannot audit every iteration for fair usage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I had four accounts when I played EVE and I fleeted them up together. I could have all four active and training at the same time (since they were separate accounts) and could clear asteroid belts very efficiently. Combat was a problem since I had to Alt-Tab through the accounts to find the right one at the right time. I did okay but certainly for individuals equally skilled would have easily destroyed me because of the extra time it took to tab through my different characters.
It was easier if you played in Window mode, and shrinked down each window width so you can layer them in such a way that you can see the overview on each at the same time. Best done with 3 characters, 4 may be a bit rough.
@ Enruel
Do you use Isboxer/Innerspace??
Isboxer is what I currently plan on using if it works well with PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm pretty sure there has been an official response, because you are not the first person that wanted to make an 1-man-army. Search the boards.
Actually, I don't recall an official response from Goblinworks on this. I've been asking about it for a long time, and have been waiting for a response as well.
I will say that the Terms of Service for the Alpha included language about not intercepting network packets.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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1. Will multiboxing be a TOS violation?
No.
2. Macros. How complex can we make them before they violate the TOS?
No specific rule. If we don't like it, we'll tell you not to do it. If you don't stop, we'll boot you.
3. Will there be a follow command to get one character to follow another?
TBD.
4. Will there be target assist options to get one character to automatically target a targeted ally's targets with hostile effects?
TBD.
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Goblin Squad Member
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DAoC's "Team Wizzy" was one guy with a bunch of identically-specced wizards. He didn't need to intercept any packets or use any complicated macros; he just set things up so that any keypress on his keyboard was sent to all of his game clients simultaneously. So when he cast Fireball, all of his wizards cast the same fireball at once, at the same target.
He was effective against PUGs. Organized groups ate him up. Being able to have a bunch of people do the same thing simultaneously is better than being in a random zerg, but not nearly as good as being able to do multiple usefully-different things at once. I would have no problem seeing something like this in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It was easier if you played in Window mode, and shrinked down each window width so you can layer them in such a way that you can see the overview on each at the same time. Best done with 3 characters, 4 may be a bit rough.
I did try windowed mode and the Alt-Tab. It was tricky, but the fourth account caused a lot of lag (in game) and delay (displaying the screen refresh). That fourth account was just a little too much video demend, and I have a decent card (GTX 560, becoming obsolete, but hanging on for now). Missions were easy, PvP was not, even against two live players, much less three or four.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would have never let a player do that so much they became known for doing it and other players had time to come up with solutions. That's just bad community management.
I guess using Isboxer is frowned upon then. :) That program is all about being able to execute commands by multiple clients, simultaneously. And being able to run so many clients on a single computer smoothly.
I agree with Guurzak though. You can do a lot with Isboxer, but it still mostly is a box of tricks, that you can have at the ready. Any serious group will make sure that none of your tricks work and then they own you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lol sorry, had to
Three monitors is right, but no, I would never mess around with multiple input devices and such. I'm a programmer, and once I realized it was "accepted" in Vanguard, I went all in and wrote my own bots that would automatically assist, damage, and heal as needed.
I expect Goblinworks' policy will be similar to a lot of other MMO companies, in that sending manual commands to various clients will probably be okay, but any kind of automated action will be forbidden. That's fine. I don't think what I want will come about unless a company explicitly approves fully automated botting. As it stands now, I won't bother with it in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lol sorry, had to
@Hardin, yeah, too much to control without using something like ISBoxer. Even with ISBoxer you are not as effective.
Hey! I pride myself in being the first true multi-boxer! As in, at least 3+ boxes. Here's my original setup for EQ, explained on the Beastlords forum.
I dare anyone to find a similar setup/post on the internet that predates 2004 and boxes at least 5 clients! ;)
(I know there were others before me, but I want proof!)
I know, I'm sad. :( But I have had so much fun with setups like that. :)
All legit though, always. I still play from that closet room though, it is even fuller now then it was then. Oh well, in two years one goes to college and I can have his room. :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, did you ever hear of Xylobot? That was a serious multiboxing program that unfortunately was abandoned by its maker. The name suggest hacking but it was just a very sophisticated Boxing client. Lots of Macro-functionaliry, it could read chat and combat logs and then execute commands if it found certain text strings, and it could even recognize graphical patterns on your screen in areas you had assigned and then execute commands when certain conditions were met.
I am sure Ryan would not approve of such a program....
Don't tell me you were the designer of that program!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, you certainly will not find me multi-boxing in the field, looking for a fight. I already panick with PvP with a single char, let alone with 5. I hope you do not mind if I have 3 clients up in 3 different towns that are all browsing the marketplace though. :) You will see a lot of multiboxing like that, I am sure. Main on one screen, crafter setting up crafting queues on another.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, did you ever hear of Xylobot?
Don't tell me you were the designer of that program!
Nope, never heard of it, and I'm certainly not the designer :)
I did quite a bit with Triggers in ZMud back when I was playing ArcticMUD, but they were very touchy about having multiple characters online at the same time so it was really only useful for things like automatically filling my waterskins when I walked past a water fountain in town.
I find it an interesting exercise in programming to create, in essence, an NPC AI. I think eventually some company will come along and announce a game like this where creating player-scripted NPCs is actually part of the vision for the game, but I don't really expect that to happen in PFO. It probably reeks of "pay-to-win" to a lot of folks, but I don't really think that's accurate, since the real alternative is "socialize-to-win". I actually think it would be quite cool for it to be possible for a player willing to spend the money to do so to build up an "army" of mindless minions.
But regardless of how cool I think it would be, if it's remotely outside how the devs want us to interact with - and in - the game, I'm not going to touch it. As I long-suspected, the key to being successful in PFO is going to be having lots of friends around so you can all help each other succeed. This lesson was borne out during the first Darksiders' event, where the fact that four friends and I managed to stay together and work together meant we were very, very difficult to take down.
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@Ryan- Thank you for your answer. As I've stated earlier I am more than willing to show any GW employee the exact scripts I'm running for any reason be that curiosity as to what the players are running or to verify that they feel my macros fall within the realm of what should be allowed. Any suggested removals or alterations to the scripts by a GW employee to bring them within the spirit of what you want for this game will be done promptly.
Multi-boxers will instantly be on my (and many others) KoS lists, like it or not, so you may not want to advertise it in the forums.
That's unfortunate but it will be obvious to anyone observing what I'm doing anyway so I'm sure my name will end up on one of your lists one way or another.
I've done what is important with me, which is made it clear with to Goblinworks I intend to abide by the rules they set forth.
If you are still angered enough by my actions to take the reputation hit for attacking my characters, or pay the costs of feuding them, then may the best man win.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Not a chance. They come with destiny's twins.As we've begun to see in other threads, those accounts may accrue value beyond their price.
The had value beyond their price when they were sold; I posted earlier the financial math that showed that the fair market value of Destiny's Twin is in low thousands of dollars. (that's after a factor for estimating how likely PFO will exist after N years, using naive priors).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think everybody has a personal line in what they do and don't think is acceptable when it comes to automating multiple characters. It tends to be a shades of grey area at the best of times.
I personally am quite OK with input mirrors like Isboxer, but am not fond of anything that doesn't require a person at the keyboard. I don't care if you only need to press a single key every minute, so long as you can't fully walk away.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Reminds me of the Oldest Macro/Bot in a game called Ultima Online... Make a hotkey to Hide, then use a penny wedged into the keyboard to hold the button down while you go do something else. When you came back several hours later, maxed Hide skill.
I've multi-boxed in Eve, both with different computers and the same computer. Using Fleet Commands while flying an Orca and a Hulk to mine out entire belts rapidly. I've never gone with more then 2 at a time, too much to keep track of otherwise.