The Bolt Ace

[Zwordsman]

@Finn

Fair enough~

Well this isn't a bolt ace but it was sprung board off this, due to a mental image and thoughts that passed around this board.(though if you took this build and did it with pure bolt ace, it would be way more effective and not half bad if you ask me)
gave it it's own thread since it wasn't actually a bolt ace..
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rfrl?Weird-Xbow-based-investigator-build-Emphe sis#1

Oh and on the a various topics about enlarge... you could carry large bolts I guess but you'd have to drop it before enlarging.. so probably only use it if you were going to hunker down and turret fire fro mfar away.

[Torbyne]

Glove of storing plus wand of gravity bow seems the best bet. Maybe you will be lucky and travel with a good scout and a warpriest who needs pre battle buffs so they don't mind the wait?

[Zwordsman]

Yup.. Unless your gm allows 3rd party... Then you can get the one that lets you use 2 wands as a standard action I guess.
Unlikely but can't hurt to ask.

or I suppose you might end up being something of a scout for the group in which case you can power up while yo uwait for them to get into position.

[Zwordsman]

More or less this thread is finished but i was making a character and noticed someting

In enlarge and reduce person this is listed
"This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them)."

so. the idea of enlarging yourself to get even bigger damage dice does in fact work.

[Torbyne]

Wow sweet! We've been messing that one up for like... a decade I think. Unless it was a fix for pathfinder. So 4d6 on a double crossbow? Or an 8D6 + 2x dex mod vital strike? Yes please.

[Zwordsman]

I coulda sworn it was that way also but i was choosing my spells and was debating enlarged and carrying large bolts or reduce.. and saw that.

but yeah.. enlarge, gravity bow, double crossbow vital strike? Damn.
1d8 to 2d6 to 3d6? Once per bolt. so 6d6 per shot, then vital strike line.
While adding any damage per bolt except precision based and critical base.

I think this is a pretty good way to work off standard actions instead of full attack. Though unles your a lv 11 bolt ace, your using move action at the very least per reload. Or I suppose reloading hands.

[Torbyne]

Just find yourself an accommodating GM who is using the massive damage rules, you'll get there quick enough :P

So, enchantment bonus x2 and dex mod x2? If each bolt is bane enchanted does it add 4D6?

[Mathius]

check the this out.

He does over 600 damage with a full attack.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rfvl?The-flying-crossbowman#2

[Zwordsman]

Uh by raw... I think it would..
The texr says dwals damage for each bolt, but crit amd precise only once. So by reasoning, that means any other modifiers is each holt.
Deadly aim, dex, enhancement, elements, so I assume bane, unless it lists something in banes text

[Torbyne]

Oh, I forgot about deadly aim. Hope they clarify making touch attacks with a crossbow and still allowing deadly aim to operate.

[Zwordsman]

Torbyne wrote:

Oh, I forgot about deadly aim. Hope they clarify making touch attacks with a crossbow and still allowing deadly aim to operate.

Would be so grand. Especially wih my beloved double xbow builds.

[Mathius]

I want the double xbow with vital strike to be competitive but it is just not.

[Mathius]

Guess you could full attack with them with quick draw. First shot double xbow and the rest with a repeating. Not sure how reloading would work.

[Lou Diamond]

Hi guys, I just made two weapons enchantments for the Crossbow.

Rapid Reload Crossbow. Rapid Reload Crossbow reduces the reload time for any crossbow to a swift action. This enchantment stacks with Rapid shot but not haste. {Haste is required spell for the enchantment and haste effects do not stack.] +1 enchantment

Bolt Reservoir: Cost 2000gp
The Crossbow has an extra dimensional space that holds 200 bolts of small, medium and large sizes. The extra dimensional space functions as a Handy Haversack the bolt is placed in the breach of the crossbow each time the crossbow is fired any desired bolt that is present in the Bolt reservoir will be loaded, The reservoir is considered to be steel lined. The Bolts placed in the reservoir will not perforate the reservoir.
Spells required Reloading hands secret chest, Craft Arms and Armor.

Could I get some feed back on these.

[Zwordsman]

Lou Diamond wrote:

Hi guys, I just made two weapons enchantments for the Crossbow.

Rapid Reload Crossbow. Rapid Reload Crossbow reduces the reload time for any crossbow to a swift action. This enchantment stacks with Rapid shot but not haste. {Haste is required spell for the enchantment and haste effects do not stack.] +1 enchantment

Bolt Reservoir: Cost 2000gp
The Crossbow has an extra dimensional space that holds 200 bolts of small, medium and large sizes. The extra dimensional space functions as a Handy Haversack the bolt is placed in the breach of the crossbow each time the crossbow is fired any desired bolt that is present in the Bolt reservoir will be loaded, The reservoir is considered to be steel lined. The Bolts placed in the reservoir will not perforate the reservoir.
Spells required Reloading hands secret chest, Craft Arms and Armor.

Could I get some feed back on these.

Well idk about the crossbow (other than not letting haste work with it is seriously harsh).

but on the reserviour. Make it work like the efficent quiver. if you have it functio nas a handy haversack it requires a move action to use. the quiver is sitll a free action and basically that bolt resviour IS an efficent quiver. Is there something wrong with the quiver? because it's a free action to get ammo and place the bolt (cranking the weapon is what takes the reload action I think)

[Michael Sayre]

Zwordsman wrote:

More or less this thread is finished but i was making a character and noticed someting

In enlarge and reduce person this is listed
"This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them)."

so. the idea of enlarging yourself to get even bigger damage dice does in fact work.

You need to use the whole quote:

"Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage." Normal in context meaning "the normal size and damage from before you cast the spell".
Enlarge person does not do anything to increase the damage of ranged weapons. They return to normal size as soon as they leave contact with you, so if you're doing gravity bow, enlarge person, Vital Strike with a double crossbow, you're actually hurting yourself, because the enlarge person is just lowering your Dex and AC with no benefit. Unless you're planning on a lugging around a large double crossbow that you can only use when enlarged.

[Chengar Qordath]

Yeah, neither of the really improves the crossbow. Rapid Reload Crossbow is just outright bad. The Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery feats can already get the reload time down to a free action, so bumping it down to swift is singularly unimpressive, especially when it's a weapon enchantment that wouldn't be affordable until after a dedicated crossbow build should have those feats. And taking away haste as well is just punitive, though it wouldn't really matter since swift-action reload limits the crossbow to two shots a round anyway. The only possible niche it has is for crossbow-users who don't want to bother picking up rapid reload—AKA characters who don't care about using crossbows. Most of those characters wouldn't want to buy a magic crossbow either.

Bolt Reservoir is similarly underwhelming. Zwordsman already pointed out the nasty effects on action economy, and otherwise it doesn't really have anything going for it when compared against an efficient quiver. It's not bad, it just doesn't really add anything new.

[Chengar Qordath]

Ssalarn wrote:

Zwordsman wrote:

More or less this thread is finished but i was making a character and noticed someting

In enlarge and reduce person this is listed
"This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them)."

so. the idea of enlarging yourself to get even bigger damage dice does in fact work.

You need to use the whole quote:

"Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage." Normal in context meaning "the normal size and damage from before you cast the spell".
Enlarge person does not do anything to increase the damage of ranged weapons. They return to normal size as soon as they leave contact with you, so if you're doing gravity bow, enlarge person, Vital Strike with a double crossbow, you're actually hurting yourself, because the enlarge person is just lowering your Dex and AC with no benefit. Unless you're planning on a lugging around a large double crossbow that you can only use when enlarged.

The crossbow would still grow with you, you'd just need to lug around large bolts.

[Michael Sayre]

Chengar Qordath wrote:

The crossbow would still grow with you, you'd just need to lug around large bolts.

Right, a few quotes down he talks about seeing that line when he was considering lugging around large bolts and it seemed like he was interpreting that to mean he didn't have to.

That being said though, wouldn't the large bolts and/or xbow need to be stowed on like a mount or cart? Since all your equipment enlarges with you, wouldn't you end up with unuseable huge bolts and/or xbow(s)?

[Chengar Qordath]

Ssalarn wrote:

Chengar Qordath wrote:

The crossbow would still grow with you, you'd just need to lug around large bolts.

Right, a few quotes down he talks about seeing that line when he was considering lugging around large bolts and it seemed like he was interpreting that to mean he didn't have to.

That being said though, wouldn't the large bolts and/or xbow need to be stowed on like a mount or cart? Since all your equipment enlarges with you, wouldn't you end up with unuseable huge bolts and/or xbow(s)?

Yeah, as I recall the usual suggestion is to drop the large bolts, enlarge, and then pick them back up again.

[Zwordsman]

Ssalarn wrote:

Zwordsman wrote:

More or less this thread is finished but i was making a character and noticed someting

In enlarge and reduce person this is listed
"This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them)."

so. the idea of enlarging yourself to get even bigger damage dice does in fact work.

You need to use the whole quote:

"Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage." Normal in context meaning "the normal size and damage from before you cast the spell".
Enlarge person does not do anything to increase the damage of ranged weapons. They return to normal size as soon as they leave contact with you, so if you're doing gravity bow, enlarge person, Vital Strike with a double crossbow, you're actually hurting yourself, because the enlarge person is just lowering your Dex and AC with no benefit. Unless you're planning on a lugging around a large double crossbow that you can only use when enlarged.

Yeah i re-read it later, i assumed it was the opposite of reduce pereson and corrected later (well unless i corrected in wrong thread considering similiarty between this and the other one) but yup enlarge is pointless~

outside of the dropping pick up thing. I'd really only ever do it as a prepped turret kind of thing where I know the fight is coming. It'd be hard for me to spend two rounds just getting enlarged damage going. but I rarely spend more than one round buffing.
It looks less horrible if your using two wands Iguess though..
Free action drop that quiver, use enlarge, next round use move to pick up, use gravity bow wand.
thats a lot of actions though; except when your prepped for ambush

[Michael Sayre]

It's a relatively small damage boost too, probably not worth the actions you're losing to do it. You could get the same (possibly more) damage from Arcane Strike with better action economy, assuming you grab one of the arcane SLA's that has a CL which advances with character level.

[Zwordsman]

Ssalarn wrote:

It's a relatively small damage boost too, probably not worth the actions you're losing to do it. You could get the same (possibly more) damage from Arcane Strike with better action economy, assuming you grab one of the arcane SLA's that has a CL which advances with character level.

Pretty much, the only time I think i'd use it would be when we're ambushing someone, I've got a wand of gravity bow and enlarge person (or i guess potions), and i'm wielding a double xbow or aminitour double xbow with vital strike. Being up some big tree or hill with that set up, having the larger arrows combined with gravity bow and vital strike can get a lot of dice.

Outside of that.. not worth the action

[Chengar Qordath]

Zwordsman wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

It's a relatively small damage boost too, probably not worth the actions you're losing to do it. You could get the same (possibly more) damage from Arcane Strike with better action economy, assuming you grab one of the arcane SLA's that has a CL which advances with character level.

Pretty much, the only time I think i'd use it would be when we're ambushing someone, I've got a wand of gravity bow and enlarge person (or i guess potions), and i'm wielding a double xbow or aminitour double xbow with vital strike. Being up some big tree or hill with that set up, having the larger arrows combined with gravity bow and vital strike can get a lot of dice.

Outside of that.. not worth the action

Even if you've got time to pre-buff, I'm not sure it's really worth it. Enlarging comes with a -2 to hit for ranged attacks.

[Diminuendo]

if you want to range as a large creature get a Belt of Mighty Hurling and wield an Aklys (technically, it doesn't leave your posession)

[graystone]

Diminuendo wrote:

if you want to range as a large creature get a Belt of Mighty Hurling and wield an Aklys (techniclly, it doesn't leave your posession)

Rope dart. :)

[Diminuendo]

:)

[Arcanic Drake]

Torbyne wrote:

Regarding the remaining firearm proficiency and gunsmithing feat, what seems the best or most likely swap outs? All crossbows seems the best fit for proficiencies and maybe rapid reload for gunsmith? A crossbow of choice or even master work crossbow would be awesome instead of a battered firearm but seems very unlikely.

Exactly! That's one of the big things I found. It is a very interesting archetype and could replace the gunslinger in all of our high fantasy campaigns.... It really just needs some clarification and some errata maybe.

I was wondering if we could FAQ bump this to get some official answers about this archetype please.

[Zwordsman]

when the first came out a lot of bolt ace problem threads were FAQd pertty solidly pointing out most if not all the normal problems

[ElementalXX]

Im expecting this will be adressed on the upcoming errata for the ACG

[JakBlitz]

ACG Errata come out yet?