Alahazra Qs.


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion

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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
Ilpalazo wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Hawkmoon269 wrote:
So wait, can I not play Scrying between two explorations? Like what if I explore and after that exploration I play Scrying, then I play Haste. Is that a legal play of Scrying?
There is actually *one* limit to playing cards and using powers in between the steps of a turn, and that's that if something told you to *immediately* explore again, you don't get the opportunity to play cards in between the two explorations.

I did not know that, so no curing between your first explore and the use of a blessing to explore again, no haste, no restoration, nothing. You have to explore and deal with the encounter (bane or boon) and only once that is done (and you are not exploring again) can you cure or play those types of spells?

Correct.

I understand this for abilities like Jirelle (Pirate Queen) saying "When you acquire a card that has the Pirate or Swashbuckling trait, you may immediately explore again." You can't play a cure in between acquiring the card and your new explore. The common Blessing/Ally power of "Discard this card to explore your location," does not have "immediately" in it so these do not apply. Blessings and Allies are played in this way in-between steps, I believe, so you should be free to cure up before you use your Blessing to explore again.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Hawkmoon269 wrote:

Ah, that's ok. It wasn't a big bubble.

So, just to close out some of the places this discussion went, is this summary accurate:

  • During the steps of the turn, you only actually do things (play cards or use powers) that relate to what is happening in that step.
  • There are "gaps" or "anytime windows" in between the steps where you are allowed to play cards or use powers that have no apparent limit on when you can play them.
  • Things like Cure, Augury, Scrying, Alahazra's examine power, even playing a blessing or ally to explore again all happen between the steps.
  • During each step there is the limit on only using a card's power once per step, but in between the steps you can use a card's power as many times as you are capable of playing it.
  • Exploring again creates a duplicate explore step.

So Alahazra can examine to her hearts content. Ezren can play as many "between step" spells as he wants and examine/draw from his deck. You can Eagle, Restoration, Eagle. All because between steps there is no limit on how many times you can do something.

Functionally speaking, that's all correct. Technically, the first and third statements aren't completely accurate, because the rulebook only explicitly limits what you can do while encountering a card and during part of resetting your hand and ending your turn. So technically, you *could* play a card like Scrying during the Give a Card step, but that isn't actually any different from playing it before or after the Give a Card step, and if you do it outside the step, there are no limits... so you might as well do it outside the step.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Ilpalazo wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Hawkmoon269 wrote:
So wait, can I not play Scrying between two explorations? Like what if I explore and after that exploration I play Scrying, then I play Haste. Is that a legal play of Scrying?
There is actually *one* limit to playing cards and using powers in between the steps of a turn, and that's that if something told you to *immediately* explore again, you don't get the opportunity to play cards in between the two explorations.

I did not know that, so no curing between your first explore and the use of a blessing to explore again, no haste, no restoration, nothing. You have to explore and deal with the encounter (bane or boon) and only once that is done (and you are not exploring again) can you cure or play those types of spells?

Correct.

Wait, there might be some confusion here. Vic, you are saying that, if something says you may "immediately" explore again then you can't play any cards or use power before exploring again, right?

i.e. If Ezren acquires a card with the Magic trait, you can't play Augury before exploring because his power says "immediately".

But Ilpalzo asked about exploring with blessings, which don't say immediately. So Ezren can explore, encounter a monster, defeat it, then play Augury, then play a blessing to explore. Right?

Sorry, yes. Anything that uses the word immediately tells you that you can't do anything else before you do the immediate thing. Blessings don't use the word immediately, but more importantly, you typically play that blessing in between steps, after an exploration, so even if it did say immediately, you could still do things *before* you played that blessing.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Alright. Sounds good. Now I can go eat my dinner with my family in peace knowing that the integrity of PACG has once again been restored.

Thanks Vic.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Hawkmoon269 wrote:

So, I've got one more question which is only tangentially related. Given all this new insight, and in particular the "exploring again creates a new explore step": The Fortune Teller FAQ. It is now limited to only be usable once per turn, which was done to close the loophole of being able to guess twice on the same card. I think that card is really cool and would love to be able to try to use it more than once per turn, but still not want to know what the card was by virtue of playing it twice. So, any chance of doing something there to indicate you can play it once per exploration? Like maybe:

Hawkmoon's Fortune Teller wrote:
On your turn, display this card and choose a category: bane or boon. Then examine the top card of your location deck. If that card matches your choice, encounter it. While displayed, after any encounter and at the end of your turn
...

There really isn't a sensible place where you can play it *and* we can limit it to once. As you now know, we have to put it into a step to limit it, and that's tricky. Here are some excerpts from our discussion on the matter:

Secret Talky Stuff wrote:


...to solve the problem, it has to go into a step. Here are the steps, and key words that each step would use to place it there.
Advance the Blessings Deck ("At the start of your turn", which Chad says is problematic*)
Give a Card (not a good space for anything)
Move ("During your move step" which seems wrong for this)
Explore ("When you explore" or "Instead of your first exploration on a turn")
Close a Location (not a good space for anything)
Reset Your Hand ("At the end of your turn")

*Chad sez: The only problematic part of doing it "At the start of your turn" is that you are encountering cards on your turn but not yet exploring. This works, but can be confusing.
As a highly contrived example, I could flip a blessing, use Fortune Teller to encounter a villain at the Harbor, close my location, give the Fortune Teller to the next player, give another card to a different player, move to Shark Island, then explore.

We explored different versions of putting it in the explore phase, but it just crashes with too many other things there, and made it unclear if you could still explore if you called the wrong card type (at least, without adding more words than we had room for).

Eventually, Mike hit on "at the end of your Move step," and we accepted it as most workable thing.


I guess what I'm still hung up on at this point is why a substep allows abilities that you've already played during that step.

A villain with 2 checks is still during the single Explore Step, and playing abilities during each of those checks is allowed, even if it's the same ability, even though you're only allowed to use an effect once per step. Another example would be a bane that summons another bane immediately. It doesn't start a new explore step, it's summoning another card during the same explore step.

So during one step (the explore step) we're able to use a single ability more than once, which kinda breaks down the system as stated. So is the Explore Step actually a "Step" or no?

I understand that it's allowed and all, I'm just trying to figure out why the step inside of another step doesn't still count as part of that main step for the sake of the rules as written for this specific instance.

We're all playing it 'right' as it's intended, but the way we're playing it is technically against the rules.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

"Once per step or check" is really not that complicated. When you are in the "Attempt the check" step, are you in a step? Yes. So you can play an applicable card or use an applicable power once during that step. When you are in the "Attempt the next check, if needed" step, are you in a step? Yes. So you can play an applicable card or use an applicable power once during that step too. And so on.

If you're saying that you understand that all these things are steps:

•Advance the blessings deck.
•Give a card to another character at the same location (optional).
•Move to another location (optional).
•Explore the top card of the location deck (optional).
•Try to close a location if it doesn’t have any cards (optional).
•Reset your hand.
•End your turn.

...but if you're arguing that we should call "Explore the top card of the location deck" something *other* than a step, I simply can't agree that doing that would make the game *easier* to learn or *less* complicated to understand.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Vic, it seems that intuitively I think you're explicitly stating the rules to allow most of what we want to do anyway (eg Lini is able to recharge 2 allies to explore because those create extra steps and play a Monkey because it's another step in the middle of the encounter) but not allow infinite interactions like revealing an Animal for 1d4 an infinite number of times.

Am I correct?


Firedale2002 wrote:

I guess what I'm still hung up on at this point is why a substep allows abilities that you've already played during that step.

A villain with 2 checks is still during the single Explore Step, and playing abilities during each of those checks is allowed, even if it's the same ability, even though you're only allowed to use an effect once per step. Another example would be a bane that summons another bane immediately. It doesn't start a new explore step, it's summoning another card during the same explore step.

So during one step (the explore step) we're able to use a single ability more than once, which kinda breaks down the system as stated. So is the Explore Step actually a "Step" or no?

I understand that it's allowed and all, I'm just trying to figure out why the step inside of another step doesn't still count as part of that main step for the sake of the rules as written for this specific instance.

We're all playing it 'right' as it's intended, but the way we're playing it is technically against the rules.

Vic Wertz wrote:

"Once per step or check" is really not that complicated. When you are in the "Attempt the check" step, are you in a step? Yes. So you can play an applicable card or use an applicable power once during that step. When you are in the "Attempt the next check, if needed" step, are you in a step? Yes. So you can play an applicable card or use an applicable power once during that step too. And so on.

If you're saying that you understand that all these things are steps:

•Advance the blessings deck.
•Give a card to another character at the same location (optional).
•Move to another location (optional).
•Explore the top card of the location deck (optional).
•Try to close a location if it doesn’t have any cards (optional).
•Reset your hand.
•End your turn.

...but you're arguing that we should call "Explore the top card of the location deck" something *other* than a step, I simply can't agree that doing that would make the game *easier* to learn or *less* complicated to understand.

I get what Firedale is saying: if you use Lini's reveal on the first check of an encounter, you've already used it for that explore step and cannot use it on the next check in that encounter because there's only one use per step. We know this to be false, but it's not clear based only on "once per step or check." Perhaps a little blurb could be added to the rulebook? Something like:

Blurb prototype wrote:

If a power or card type is used during a check, it does not count as your "once per step" use of that power or card type.

Example: During her explore step, Lini encounters the villain such-and-such, which has two checks to defeat. On her first check to defeat, Lini reveals her Crow with her power to add d4 to the check. When she moves on to the second check to defeat, she can reveal the crow for her power again since she previously used her power on a check (ther "once per check" rule).

---

PS - I find the idea of gaps between steps that you can play cards in really bizarre. A neat solution, just alien as a concept to me.


Hawkmoon269 wrote:

Alright. Sounds good. Now I can go eat my dinner with my family in peace knowing that the integrity of PACG has once again been restored.

Thanks Vic.

Apologies, didnt mean to add to the confusion, forgot that blessings don't say immediately. There are so few things that have that "immediately explore again" wording that I thought we were talking about most cards that grant you extra explores.

Thanks Vic for clearing all this up, so awesome how you guys are active on this board.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

VERY BIG THANKS VIC and all others.

It started as a little discussion about my daughter's strategy in playing the Oracle and ended up clarifying A LOT of things on "steps", "between steps", "optional steps", "immediate steps", "additional steps", "card's powers" vs "character's powers", powers you can only play once because they happen at a certain time in the turn, and so on.

And all is clear and simple now.

Such a great game...

I agree with Hawk, some of what was discussed here should (if nicely worded) be added to the rules.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Orbis Orboros wrote:
I get what Firedale is saying: if you use Lini's reveal on the first check of an encounter, you've already used it for that explore step and cannot use it on the next check in that encounter because there's only one use per step. We know this to be false, but it's not clear based only on "once per step or check." Perhaps a little blurb could be added to the rulebook? Something like:
Blurb prototype wrote:
If a power or card type is used during a check, it does not count as your "once per step" use of that power or card type.

But that's not correct. It absolutely *does* count as your once-per-step use. It's just that the step that it counts for is the step of your *encounter*, not the step of your *turn*.


Vic Wertz wrote:
Orbis Orboros wrote:

I get what Firedale is saying: if you use Lini's reveal on the first check of an encounter, you've already used it for that explore step and cannot use it on the next check in that encounter because there's only one use per step. We know this to be false, but it's not clear based only on "once per step or check." Perhaps a little blurb could be added to the rulebook? Something like:

Blurb prototype wrote:
If a power or card type is used during a check, it does not count as your "once per step" use of that power or card type.
But that's not correct. It absolutely *does* count as your once-per-step use. It's just that the step that it counts for is the step of your *encounter*, not the step of your *turn*.

Then perhaps something else? The issue is the step within a step.

•Advance the blessings deck.
•Give a card to another character at the same location (optional).
•Move to another location (optional).
•Explore the top card of the location deck (optional).
••(...)
••Attempt the first check
••Attempt the second check
••(...)
•Try to close a location if it doesn’t have any cards (optional).
•Reset your hand.
•End your turn.

So, it can be argued:
If you use her reveal ability on the first check, you're using it during that step of the encounter AND during that explore step. If you want to use it during the second check you can't, because while it is a different step of the encounter, you already used it for this explore step (or that's how it reads to me, though that's not the intent).


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Don't think of an encounter or check as sub-steps inside another step. Think of them as separate steps. When you encounter a card or attempt a check you go through a separate set of steps.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I agree with Hawkmoon. How I read it is that the "explore step" is over after you explore the top card of the location deck. After you are encountering the card, you are no longer in the "explore step" and you are now executing the steps of the encounter. You are never doing things during the steps of the encounter AND during the explore step. That's how I see it, anyway.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

That would sort of mean you "exploration" isn't part of your explore step, since you can play cards to explore that effect checks during your exploration. Allies in particular. So I'm not sure if that understanding is perfect or not. But it seems close, at least as far as steps are concerned.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
Sorry, yes. Anything that uses the word immediately tells you that you can't do anything else before you do the immediate thing. Blessings don't use the word immediately, but more importantly, you typically play that blessing in between steps, after an exploration, so even if it did say immediately, you could still do things *before* you played that blessing.

Are all the powers supposed to say "immediately"? And if not, why?

A sampling (the three powers look almost exactly the same):
Jirelle (S&S - Duelist): When you defeat a monster on your turn, and your check has the Swashbuckling trait, you may discard ([] or recharge) a card to immediately explore.
Lesath (Class Deck - Dervish): If you defeat a monster while you are the only character at your location, you may discard a card to explore again.
Kyra (Class Deck - Fireflower): If you defeat a monster on your turn, and your check to defeat has the Sword trait, you may discard ([] or recharge) a card to immediately explore again.

Lesath has no "immediately" but the other two do. (There are also some minor templating inconsistencies. I'll expand more on that in a separate thread.)


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
zeroth_hour wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Sorry, yes. Anything that uses the word immediately tells you that you can't do anything else before you do the immediate thing. Blessings don't use the word immediately, but more importantly, you typically play that blessing in between steps, after an exploration, so even if it did say immediately, you could still do things *before* you played that blessing.

Are all the powers supposed to say "immediately"? And if not, why?

A sampling (the three powers look almost exactly the same):
Jirelle (S&S - Duelist): When you defeat a monster on your turn, and your check has the Swashbuckling trait, you may discard ([] or recharge) a card to immediately explore.
Lesath (Class Deck - Dervish): If you defeat a monster while you are the only character at your location, you may discard a card to explore again.
Kyra (Class Deck - Fireflower): If you defeat a monster on your turn, and your check to defeat has the Sword trait, you may discard ([] or recharge) a card to immediately explore again.

Lesath has no "immediately" but the other two do. (There are also some minor templating inconsistencies. I'll expand more on that in a separate thread.)

I would imagine that they should all be immediately, just to avoid memory issues. At least, that's how I play until I hear otherwise. Good catch on Lesath, I didn't think there were any characters that didn't have the 'immediately' in front.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

We've actually had a big discussion on "immediately" in the last couple weeks, and we recognize that it has not been used consistently. However, it's unlikely we'll go back and change any of them this point; we'll just be more consistent starting with Wrath.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

I've just FAQ'd the discussion on immediately. The conclusion may vary from what previous statements may have led you to expect.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Huh, so does this apply to cards that are played, like Allies and Blessings? I understand the ruling for triggered abilities like location and character powers at happen because of a certain condition, but to apply this to when you play a card which (it seems like) can be played at any time doesn't sound right.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Only in the sense that once you play the ally or blessing to explore, you must explore.

So you can't do this:
1. Play blessing to explore.
2. Play Cure.
3. Actually explore.

Once you trigger the exploration, the next thing you have to do is explore. But when you play a blessing or ally to explore, you are deciding when to trigger the exploration.

But it does mean that when Lesath defeats a monster and is the only character at his location, if he wants to explore he has to use his power right away and explore right away. So the only thing happening between the two explorations will be him discarding a card.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
I've just FAQ'd the discussion on immediately. The conclusion may vary from what previous statements may have led you to expect.

BRAVO! One of the best ruling ever. Simple and efficient and minimize the risk of future card erratas.

Furthermore, makes some interestning choices in game (since I cannot get cured between my two explorations, do I push my luck and explore again, and son on...)

You the man Vic.


Related timing question: when Ezren plays Haste to explore his location, in what order does he

  • Look at the top card of his deck
  • Attempt to recharge Haste
  • Explore?

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

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Nefrubyr wrote:

Related timing question: when Ezren plays Haste to explore his location, in what order does he

  • Look at the top card of his deck
  • Attempt to recharge Haste
  • Explore?

In that order.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Walk me through "After you explore, you may discard to explore again" effects in RotR and the way it interacts with this ruling.

-Encounter finishes
-End of current explore
-Anytime window opens (you can cast Augury, Detect Magic, etc)?
-"After you explore" time, can discard 2 cards to explore (Waterfront etc)
-New explore happens immediately

Or is there no anytime window? From the above it implies that there isn't any.

I think an expanded turn order walkthrough would be really useful here with where exactly anytime windows can occur.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

The new ruling makes free extra explores riskier because you don't get a window to scout the next card or cast Cure, etc. But if you choose to explore with an ally, blessing, etc. then you do get a window to do those things. I think the real change is that you can't have a pending free extra explore and do other things before you use it.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Here is how I see it:

Turn Sequence
1. Advance the blessing deck
2. Between Steps Window (Anytime)
3. Give a card
4. Between Steps Window (Anytime)
5. Move
6. Between Steps Window (Anytime)
7 Explore
--If during your exploration, any effect grants you an additional exploration, immediately repeat step 7.
8. Between Steps Window (Anytime)
--Step 8 is the only anytime window that you can play a card to explore again (like allies and blessings). If you do, create a new Explore step.
9. Attempt to close a location
10. Between Steps Window (Anytime)
11. Reset your hand
12. End your turn


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

And here is a sample with Ezren

Sample Turn: Ezren
1. Advance the blessing deck.
Ezren flips the top card.
2. Between Steps Window (Anytime)
Ezren plays Detect Magic. The top card is spell with the Magic trait. He decides to encounter it and acquires it. His power to explore again doesn't kick in because he wasn't exploring.
3. Give a card
Ezren decides not to.
4. Between Steps Window (Anytime)
Ezren plays Augury and says monsters. He doesn't find any.
Ezren plays a second Augury and says monsters. He finds 2 and puts them on the bottom of the deck.
5. Move
Ezren decides not to move.
6. Between Steps Window (Anytime)
Ezren doesn't do anything.
7. Explore 1
Ezren explores and encounters a monster. He plays a spell for his combat check and defeats it.
8. Between Steps Window (Anytime)
Ezren plays an ally to explore again.
9. Explore 2
Ezren encounters a spell. He acquires it, activating his power to explore again. He doesn't get a "window" so immediately after Explore 2 ends Explore 3 starts.
10. Explore 3
Ezren encounters a monster and defeats it.
11. Between Steps Window (Anytime)
Ezren plays a Cure spell he picked up at some point.
Ezren plays Haste to explore.
12. Explore 4
Ezren encounter Ambush and defeats it. Ambush grants him an exploration that must begin immediately, so he doesn't get a "window" and explore 5 begins immediately after Explore 4 ends.
13. Explore 5
Ezren encounters a weapon and fails to acquire it.
14. Attempt to close a location
The location isn't empty.
15. Between Steps Window (Anytime)
Ezren plays Charm Person.
16. Reset your hand
Ezren resets his hand.
17. End your turn
Ezren tells the next player to start their turn.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Ah, so any explores granted by an effect in the middle of an explore have to be used immediately after the explore. Makes sense.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Yep, use it or lose it. A more risky example of such am ability compared to Ezren's (unless he blew a blessing he acquired to help with acquiring the card) would be Olenjack's. His extra explore triggers from beating a combat check with the Poison trait, so he has to go straight from a fight which could have burned some valuable resources (like his displayed allies), and risk going into another fight right afterwords without having any prep time in between.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

"In between steps" is now officially a thing. (And you might also want to take a peek at the somewhat related FAQ entry just above that one.)


Vic Wertz wrote:


Correct: Powers may only be used once per check or step; effects that happen at the end of your turn are used at the start of the "Reset Your Hand" step.

Oh wait...Alahazra has to use the swap power before the resets her hand? We've been playing that wrong then, our Alahazra has been getting her full complement of cards and THEN doing the swap.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Yeah, that makes her a little too extra good if she doesn't have to hold back a card for the swap. Plus it's consistent with all other end of turn effects. Once you reset your hand, your turn is done.


Yeah for sure. Will adjust now. Man you think you have a game down, you play it almost exclusively with your group for over a year, and you still get basic stuff wrong!


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

The intent was that after you reset your hand, there shouldn't be anything you can do after that and ending your turn. So all the end of turn effects have to trigger before you reset your hand.


Is this the right place for Class Deck Alahazra questions?

If so, have a question about how her 2nd ability (look at an extra card) works when combined with cards that directly interact with the (usually single) examined card.

Ability: "When you examine 1 or more cards from a character or location deck, you may examine an additional card"

Helpful Haversack: "At the start of your turn, reveal this card to examine the top card of your deck. You may additionally discard this card to add the examined card to your hand; otherwise, return the examined card to the top or bottom of your deck.

Blessing of Thoth: "Discard this card to examine the top card of your location deck. If the card has the Undead trait, you may explore your location."

-------

Okay, so with Haversack, you obviously get to examine a 2nd card.

  • If you discard the Haversack, do you draw both cards, or just the top one?
  • If you put them back, presumably you cannot change the order?

Blessing of Thoth is more complex, since it is trait-checking.

  • If both cards have Undead, does it trigger one explore or two?
  • If only the 2nd card is Undead, do you encounter the first card, or the card that matches the criteria?

-------

I know there have been a few other cards that the group I'm playing with has run into already, but I think those 2 cards cover most of the questions that came up.

Silver Crusade

I believe this thread is actually about Skull & Shackles Alahazra, but this thread should answer your questions about CD Alahazra.


Eliandra Giltessan wrote:
I believe this thread is actually about Skull & Shackles Alahazra, but this thread should answer your questions about CD Alahazra.

Thanks!

I spent over 30 minutes searching for an answer before posting, but never managed to find that thread.

Still doesn't have a concrete answer, but sounds like the weakest possible interpretation is agreed on.


Viro, feel free to create a new thread when you have questions. It's actually more helpful for the rest of us than if you revive an ancient thread.

I encourage you to search the forum to find if your question was answered, but if you don't find that, start a new thread.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Viro Melchior wrote:

Is this the right place for Class Deck Alahazra questions?

If so, have a question about how her 2nd ability (look at an extra card) works when combined with cards that directly interact with the (usually single) examined card.

Ability: "When you examine 1 or more cards from a character or location deck, you may examine an additional card"

Helpful Haversack: "At the start of your turn, reveal this card to examine the top card of your deck. You may additionally discard this card to add the examined card to your hand; otherwise, return the examined card to the top or bottom of your deck.

Blessing of Thoth: "Discard this card to examine the top card of your location deck. If the card has the Undead trait, you may explore your location."

-------

Okay, so with Haversack, you obviously get to examine a 2nd card.

  • If you discard the Haversack, do you draw both cards, or just the top one?
  • If you put them back, presumably you cannot change the order?

Blessing of Thoth is more complex, since it is trait-checking.

  • If both cards have Undead, does it trigger one explore or two?
  • If only the 2nd card is Undead, do you encounter the first card, or the card that matches the criteria?

-------

I know there have been a few other cards that the group I'm playing with has run into already, but I think those 2 cards cover most of the questions that came up.

This post, from the thread Eliandra linked to, is the key. Both Helpful Haversack and Blessing of Thoth's second sentences deal address the manipulation of the cards and talk about a singular "card" (i.e. "the examined card" and "the card"). That distinction means the manipulation only occurs on the card that Helpful Haversack or Blessing of Thoth examined. So while you've examined extra cards, you can't do anything with them. In other words, Alahazra makes them this:

Alahazra's Helpful Haversack: "At the start of your turn, reveal this card to examine the top two cards of your deck. Return the second examined card to the top of the deck. You may additionally discard this card to add the top examined card to your hand; otherwise, return the top examined card to the top or bottom of your deck.

Alahazra's Blessing of Thoth: "Discard this card to examine the top two cards of your location deck. If the top examined card has the Undead trait, you may explore your location."

That is my take anyway.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Resurrecting this thread from very minor encouragement from skizzerz.

It must be noted that the rules dictated in this thread (most importantly, that "Taking an additional exploration is creating a new exploration step") is still not found in the up-to-date Mummy's Mask Rulebook. The rulebook is pretty explicit that "Explore Step" is a single step (you can take multiple explorations in it, of course), and has no text at any point which indicates anything about additional explorations being seperate steps.

Rules as Written, I'm pretty certain you cannot re-use various powers and cards in ways you are intended. To use a Mummy's Mask character as an example; Zadim can recharge a card to examine the top card of his location deck. RAW, the following series of actions is still illegal unless a player goes online and finds this forum to get clarification otherwise.

1. Zadim explores his location.
2. Zadim recharges a card to examine the top card of his location deck (it was a trigger and he banishes it).
3. Zadim recharges another card to examine the top card of his location deck. (Against the rules; the rulebook suggests he's still in the same step, and not 'Between Steps', where it allows powers to be used freely and repeatedly)
4. Zadim explores his location by discarding a blessing.
5. Zadim recharges a card to examine the top card of his location deck. (Again, he's still in the same step, RAW, and cannot do this due to step 2 above).

If I've missed some key paragraph somewhere in the Mummy's Mask rulebook or FAQ, I would love to be proven wrong here.

Relevant Rulebook page:
Mummy's Mask Rulebook, Page 7 wrote:

Taking Your Turn

Take your turn by going through the following steps in order. You can
play cards and use powers without limit in between these steps, as
long as they don’t say they can only be played at certain times.

Advance the Blessings Deck: At the start of your turn, discard the
top card from the blessings deck faceup onto the top of the blessings
discard pile. You never acquire this card, though some cards may refer
to it during your turn. If you have to remove one or more cards from
the blessings deck for any reason and there are not enough cards to
do so, the party loses the scenario (see Ending a Scenario, Adventure,
or Adventure Path on page 18). After advancing the blessings deck,
apply any other effects that happen at the start of your turn.

Give a Card: You may give 1 card from your hand to another player at
your location. (Other players cannot give you cards on your turn.)

Move: You may move your token card to another location. Moving
then triggers any effects that happen when you enter or leave a
location. When you choose to move, you must always select a new
location, although it is possible for some effects to move you to the
same location you came from. If you do not change locations, your
character is not considered to have entered or left a location. Some
effects may cause you to move whether you want to or not, and
other effects may restrict you from moving. If an effect would move
you while another effect restricts you from moving, do not move.

Explore: You may explore your location once each turn without
playing a card that allows you to explore; this must be your first
exploration for the turn. You may never explore outside of your
explore step. When you explore, flip over the top card of your current
location deck. If it’s a boon, you may attempt to acquire it; if you
don’t attempt that, banish it. If it’s a bane, you must try to defeat
it (see Encountering a Card on page 9). Many effects allow you to
explore again on your turn, and there is no limit to the number of
times you can explore.
However, during a single exploration, no matter how many
different effects allow you to explore again, treat them as granting
one additional exploration, not a series of additional explorations. For
example, Drelm has taken the Keymaster role, and has gained the
power feat that lets him explore his location after he defeats a barrier
that has the Obstacle trait on his exploration. During his exploration,
Drelm encounters Falling Rubble, a barrier that has the Obstacle
trait and a power that says “If defeated, you may explore your
location.” Drelm defeats the barrier, but he gains only one additional
exploration, not two.
If a card grants you an additional exploration, after you finish
what you are doing, you must immediately use that exploration or
forfeit it.


Yewstance wrote:

Resurrecting this thread from very minor encouragement from skizzerz.

It must be noted that the rules dictated in this thread (most importantly, that "Taking an additional exploration is creating a new exploration step") is still not found in the up-to-date Mummy's Mask Rulebook. The rulebook is pretty explicit that "Explore Step" is a single step (you can take multiple explorations in it, of course), and has no text at any point which indicates anything about additional explorations being seperate steps.

Fortunately, you'd have to be an avid rules forum reader to even suspect that you couldn't do that sequence of steps in the first place.

I always thought you could play whatever cards you liked during the explore step, so long as you weren't in the middle of an actual explore/encounter. If I understand you correctly, you're saying the official ruling is that you're playing those cards "between" steps, but that when you do so and it's a card which explores, you somehow re-enter the explore step (or make a new one). Which you're only allowed to do if its the most recent step. It seems needlessly convoluted to me compared to the (equivalent) way I'd been playing the whole time.

It says you can play whatever cards you like between steps, but that doesn't necessarily mean that converse, that you can't play whatever cards you like during the explore step. The relevant rule is somewhere else, that you haven't quoted, which tells you something along the lines of cards having to be relevant to what you're doing.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Irgy wrote:

Fortunately, you'd have to be an avid rules forum reader to even suspect that you couldn't do that sequence of steps in the first place.

I always thought you could play whatever cards you liked during the explore step, so long as you weren't in the middle of an actual explore/encounter. If I understand you correctly, you're saying the official ruling is that you're playing those cards "between" steps, but that when you do so and it's a card which explores, you somehow re-enter the explore step (or make a new one). Which you're only allowed to do if its the most recent step. It seems needlessly convoluted to me compared to the (equivalent) way I'd been playing the whole time.

It says you can play whatever cards you like between steps, but that doesn't necessarily mean that converse, that you can't play whatever cards you like during the explore step. The relevant rule is somewhere else, that you haven't quoted, which tells you something along the lines of cards having to be relevant to what you're doing.

I'm just stating what the rulebook infers; for people who don't play with someone who has played the game before and don't read the forum, the rulebook seems to describe that 'normal play' is illegal.

As a matter of fact, another section of the rulebook, which I didn't already quote, further attests to the fact that what I said before wouldn't be possible.

Mummy's Mask Rulebook, Page 8 wrote:
If a power says it may be used when something happens, you may use it every time that happens. Otherwise, a specific card’s power may only be used once per check or step.

So, for example, with the S&S ship that allows you to discard a card from the blessings deck to explore your location, the above rule makes explicit that you would not be able to use that power multiple times in a turn, because the rulebook also states - or at least infers without opening to the contrary - that explorations take place in a single step. (Which we know from Vic's comments in this thread that they don't actually do so.)

The specific rule you refer to about "cards have to be relevant" only applies when Encountering a card. As per the following quote which you inferred:

Mummy's Mask Rulebook, Page 9 wrote:

Encountering a Card

When you encounter a card, you—and only you—can go through the following steps. No one else can perform these steps for you, though others might be able to play cards to help you deal with the encounter’s challenges. During each of these steps, characters may perform only the specified actions. Characters may only play cards or use powers that relate to each step (or relate to cards played or powers used in that step). Each character may play no more than 1 card of each type during each step; for example, a character may play no more than 1 blessing while attempting a check, though multiple characters could each play 1 blessing. A character may not activate a given power more than once during each step, other than effects that can be used each time something particular happens. Characters may not play any cards or activate any powers between these steps.

The rulebook is clear - and accurate - that the rules on playing cards is different when inside and outside of an encounter. As quoted in the spoiler under my previous post, under Taking Your Turn it does say that "You can play cards and use powers without limit in between these steps, as long as they don’t say they can only be played at certain times."; which is correct, when applied to the steps of a turn. As quoted above under Encountering a card, it does say "Characters may not play any cards or activate any powers between these steps.", which is also correct; when applied to the steps of an Encounter.

Irgy wrote:
It says you can play whatever cards you like between steps, but that doesn't necessarily mean that converse, that you can't play whatever cards you like during the explore step.

I'm not sure I agree, because that would infer "because the rulebook doesn't say you can't play a card here, therefore you can", which would, for example, suggest you could play any card during your start-of-turn step (formally called "Advance the Blessings Deck"), which I know for a fact you cannot. But it never explicitly states you can't.

You can play a card or use a power - say, Cure - in between steps all you like (so between "Advance the Blessings Deck" and "Give a card", or between "Give a card" and "Move", or between "Move" and "Explore"), and the rulebook supports all that, and most people inherently play that correctly... but the same rules which define, in objective language, why that is the case also explicitly state that "Explore" is a single step, so you would not be able to play Cure (at least not freely) in between explorations.

Perhaps 'explicit' is an exaggeration; but there is no text at any point which implies that you have more than one Exploration step at any point. Which means that you're never in-between steps of a turn when taking more than one exploration, which means you can never play cards freely. I'm quite certain that the clarifications behind when you can legally use cards and powers, as were discussed heavily in the first page of this forum, have never made it into any variation of the rulebook.


Ah. Truly we have another bonafide Rules Lawyer on the forum. I don't mean that as a pejorative (well, not solely). I find Rules Lawyers exasperating, despite being a bit of one myself, while at the same time I acknowledge they can be helpful gadflys.

No passage in the MM rulebook makes it clear that the Explore step is different from other steps in that you can have an unlimited number of Explore steps in a single turn -- I agree with that. Explore is the only step that acts this way, and that's not clear.

I disagree that the rulebook explictly (Yewstance's emphasis) states that all of one's explores occur in a single Explore step. I don't see that explicitly spelled out. Both understandings - that a new explore starts a new instance of an Explore step, and that all your explorations happen within the same one Explore step -- are possible from the RAW.


Warning: Mostly off-topic, but I promise not to keep posting and derail the thread.

I've seen "rules lawyer" used two different ways. #1: A person who twists the RAW to help him/her win. #2: A person who knows the rules well and wants to play correctly. Most/all people on the PACG forums fall into category #2, which is the good definition. :)

Not coincidentally, I fell into definition #2 when I played organized play for the first time just a few months ago. The OP group I joined was great, but they had some rules misunderstandings. I corrected the rules mistakes for a while, but I eventually stopped as I didn't want to become "that guy". Also, their typical counter-argument was, "we've always played it that way, so it makes sense for us to keep playing it that way."

Common misunderstandings:
- blessings with the Basic trait are never removed from the game
- if you fight without a weapon, you don't get the melee bonus (i.e., have to use strength, not melee)
- if a monster has a "then" combat, you don't have to do the second combat check if you fail the first
- "end of turn" happens after you reset your hand, not before
- Blessings of Gozreh can be applied to any checks associated w/ closing a location, such as fighting a monster
- you see your hand before deciding which location to start at
- others that I'm forgetting

To me, this just emphasizes that PACG - when you get down to it - is pretty complicated, and there are probably many groups who are playing not-quite-correctly. Like, maybe all of them.

My personal record* for playing a rule incorrectly was one that I misplayed for 4+ years. I had no idea that *each* character at a location could attempt to temporarily close that location. It wasn't until I played the PC version on Steam that I learned that rule.

*Ok, my personal record is the rule that I still don't know that I'm playing incorrectly. We'll see when I finally become aware of that one.

Funnily enough, my OP group (9 players total) never gives cards in the Give a Card step. I'd suggest it occasionally (like, I don't have a weapon - can you give me one?), and people would look at me like I'm crazy. So there are different playstyles, apparently. :)


Definitely off-topic:
Just to clarify: I concur with wkover's "rules lawyer" definitions #1 and #2, but I'd added a #3: a person who reads a rules passage in such a strict and rigid way that they reach a conclusion contrary to the common-sense understanding of the rule, and, in many such cases, contrary to the intent of the designer(s). (Which has led a Paizo designer to exclaim on this site, "Holy overparsing, Batman!"). I think #2 can stray into #3. (I know I do.)

Still kinda off-topic:
wkover, are you listing as an error what is specified in the "Preparing The Game Box" sidebar of the Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Guide, after describing how Basics and Elites are removed as you progress through the Adventure Path?

PSACGG v.5 p.13 wrote:
Don’t Remove Basic Blessings: Regardless of the method you use, do not remove blessings that have the Basic trait.


elcoderdude wrote:

wkover, are you listing as an error what is specified in the "Preparing The Game Box" sidebar of the Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Guide, after describing how Basics and Elites are removed as you progress through the Adventure Path?

PSACGG v.5 p.13 wrote:
Don’t Remove Basic Blessings: Regardless of the method you use, do not remove blessings that have the Basic trait.

I did mean removing Basic/Elite cards - as in this thread.

I took the "Preparing the Game box" text as completely optional. I thought you either removed Basic/Elites the "regular" way (by permanently closing locations, etc.) OR you used one of the quicker ways outlined in "Preparing the Game Box". Our OP host has been removing basics/elites the regular way in our games, at least.

Anyway, I should move this discussion elsewhere. :) Feel free to PM me to tell me what the right answer is.


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Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Irgy wrote:
It says you can play whatever cards you like between steps, but that doesn't necessarily mean that converse, that you can't play whatever cards you like during the explore step. The relevant rule is somewhere else, that you haven't quoted, which tells you something along the lines of cards having to be relevant to what you're doing.

If you apply that logic, it also never says you can't just arbitrarily win whenever you feel like it, or that you can't play Cure between turns (after resetting your hand but before the next blessing is flipped and start of turn effects happen and/or after the blessing is flipped but still before start of turn effects).

In other words, the only way that the rulebook works at all is to treat everything that isn't explicitly allowed by the rulebook as not being allowed. It is literally impossible to say "You can't do X" for all X that the designers do not want you to be able to do.

As such, we're told we can play cards and use powers without limit between steps of a turn. During a step of a turn, we can only play cards and use powers that the step explicitly tells us we can do. This means only start of turn effects can happen immediately after advancing the blessings deck; no advancing the blessings deck, then playing Cure, then applying the start of turn effect that would've killed you if you didn't get a heal.

Within that framework I mentioned above, the only way multiple explorations really works (where "works" is defined as "how pretty much everyone plays it" aka "can play cards and use powers without restriction between explorations so long as the next explore doesn't say immediately") is by having multiple explore steps (where you play the card to explore again between explore steps). This also meshes with what Vic mentioned above. The only issue is that the rulebook still doesn't make any mention of there being multiple explore steps if there are multiple explores, and it probably should.

In my opinion, the neatest way to handle this would be to add a new step "Explore Again (Optional)" with wording like "You may play cards and use powers which let you explore your location. Repeat this step until you wish to stop exploring." Note that the callout there is necessary because of the rule "You may never explore outside of your explore step." -- since that uses the word never, we need to let you play that somehow as a rulebook carve-out since "between steps" is most certainly "outside of your explore step". This sequencing (with a new step) lets you play cards without restriction in between explore steps (unless the explore again is "immediately" which already has a rule covering it), and then play a card to explore again without running headfirst into the "never" rule.

It's not something people outside of us forumites would ever get tripped up on despite the apparent contradiction in the rulebook, but I like me some clarity :)


I think my points before were a little poorly stated. Re when you can play cards, I was just trying to say "A does not imply converse(A)", I think people read more into that than I intended. Though I do genuinely feel like "I can play cards whenever I want" is a sensible default that should be explicitly disallowed, in a way that "I can win whenever I want" is not.

In practice, people play this "right" because they assume that the explore powers on blessings/allies function, at all. If the rulebook somehow doesn't technically support that without forum clarification, that's not going to be a problem for ordinary people, even if they could theoretically deduce it from cross-referencing different wording in the rulebook.

Similarly, it's also natural to assume that you can play other cards in between doing one thing and doing another. If you can play an ally to explore then surely you can play a different power to examine a card. So again if the rules technically suggest you can't, but actually you can for some complicated reason known only to forum readers, that's also not a real problem for any real people.

That said I'm all for the rules technically functioning as intended, and for that to happen without resorting to rulings in the forums.

I follow a fairly simple model in practice for whether I can play a general card like Cure (as opposed to one that says when to play it, one way or another)
- Am I in the middle of doing something else?
-case no- Then yes I can play the card.
-case yes- I can only play the card if it's explicitly allowed somehow with regards to the thing that I'm doing.

If I have to do something "immediately" then I go straight from being in the middle of doing one thing to being in the middle of doing another thing, so that works out the same.

I kind of feel like the whole "steps" and "between steps" model, with repeated separate explore steps, is just a messy version of the same thing. If they're ever different then to me the fault is with the "steps" model if anything. For instance, personally I think the fact that I can play cards in between steps, but not in between turns, is just dumb, and unless it serves a genuine purpose it could happily discarded to the bin of gratuitous irrelevant technicalities. Though if I ever find myself in a convoluted situation in which it matters, and notice, I'll still probably try and play it correctly, because I'm like that.

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