Warpriests putting enemies to sleep - No save!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Dark Archive

Don't know if it's been mentioned before, but thought you guys might enjoy the fact that the warpriest can put enemies to sleep on demand.


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This is interesting. I just wonder if it is RAI or an editing issue.


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Judging from the quality of editing in the rest of book, it's probably an editing issue. It's either that or a combination not expected by the devs.

I lean towards the former.

Dark Archive

I'm of the opinion that it's the latter :-D Especially as it simply copies the cleric's Repose domain ability, which does not allow a save either.

Well, until/unless errata comes out to fix it... it works for now!


Yeah you could do this before with two clerics, or a cleric and an inquisitor, or something that got a domain

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I'm guessing the default rule that effects don't stack with themselves would prevent you from putting a target to sleep using only this blessing.

When resolving the second instance of the blessing, you would first check that the second instance of the blessing would affect the target. Since the first instance of the blessing is already affecting the target and the blessing does not stack with itself, the second instance of the blessing would not affect the target. This resolves the second instance of the blessing before the "if" clause in its text is ever invoked. (The "if" clause only applies when the blessing would cause a target to become staggered, but the second instance of the blessing would not cause a target to become staggered in the first place.)


Epic Meepo wrote:

I'm guessing the default rule that effects don't stack with themselves would prevent you from putting a target to sleep using only this blessing.

When resolving the second instance of the blessing, you would first check that the second instance of the blessing would affect the target. Since the first instance of the blessing is already affecting the target and the blessing does not stack with itself, the second instance of the blessing would not affect the target. This resolves the second instance of the blessing before the "if" clause in its text is ever invoked. (The "if" clause only applies when the blessing would cause a target to become staggered, but the second instance of the blessing would not cause a target to become staggered in the first place.)

It is the same same source, but a different power(effect). I am not looking at the magic chapter, but I think it has to be same effect same source to not stack.


Quote:

Repose Domain

Gentle Rest (Sp): Your touch can fill a creature with lethargy, causing a living creature to become staggered for 1 round as a melee touch attack. If you touch a staggered living creature, that creature falls asleep for 1 round instead.

Same as the repose domain, and I don't see any errata to that.

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Also it would take two people with the ability to make it work.
You use your repose ability and stagger them for one round. At the beginning of your next round they are no longer staggered. So you couldn't put them to sleep with the touch again, you could only keep them staggered.


Splendor wrote:
Quote:

Repose Domain

Gentle Rest (Sp): Your touch can fill a creature with lethargy, causing a living creature to become staggered for 1 round as a melee touch attack. If you touch a staggered living creature, that creature falls asleep for 1 round instead.

Same as the repose domain, and I don't see any errata to that.

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Also it would take two people with the ability to make it work.
You use your repose ability and stagger them for one round. At the beginning of your next round they are no longer staggered. So you couldn't put them to sleep with the touch again, you could only keep them staggered.

Did you even read the linked thread? Quicken blessing lets him get two out in one turn.

Liberty's Edge

Uh...yeah, that works. You have to hit them with two successive melee touch attacks, and it costs three Blessing Uses (and a Feat). And sleep isn't that bad a condition to apply (anyone can wake them with a standard action).

It's a very nice trick, but not the end of the world. And clearly not a typo given that it works identically to the Repose Domain ability from the corebook.

Dark Archive

The thing is that Sleep causes enemies to be Helpless, allowing an ally to coup de grace them into oblivion.


GhostwheelX wrote:
The thing is that Sleep causes enemies to be Helpless, allowing an ally to coup de grace them into oblivion.

Coup de grace attempts are also full-round attacks that provoke attacks of opportunity.


Odraude wrote:
GhostwheelX wrote:
The thing is that Sleep causes enemies to be Helpless, allowing an ally to coup de grace them into oblivion.
Coup de grace attempts are also full-round attacks that provoke attacks of opportunity.

And? Yes its not that great against mooks... but against BBEGs and the like, spending a full round action and risking some damage to just straight end the fight seems worth it to me...


It's not a combo you can pull off effortlessly, though. You need to have conserved your blessings for the purpose. You need a healthy ally with a weapon already in reach of the BBEG. You need to time it such that your ally acts immediately after you, so no allies of the BBEG can intervene to wake him up before the CdG. You need to land two melee touch attacks (sometimes easy, but what about the flying mirror-imaged wizard?). You, presumably, need to penetrate spell resistance twice? You need the BBEG not to know this is your technique or he could have an ally standing by with a readied action to wake him up should he fall asleep in combat...

Dark Archive

It's a Supernatural effect, so no SR FWIW.


Oh? Then that's significantly better than the old Repose Domain power.


Matthew Downie wrote:
It's not a combo you can pull off effortlessly, though. You need to have conserved your blessings for the purpose. You need a healthy ally with a weapon already in reach of the BBEG. You need to time it such that your ally acts immediately after you, so no allies of the BBEG can intervene to wake him up before the CdG. You need to land two melee touch attacks (sometimes easy, but what about the flying mirror-imaged wizard?). You, presumably, need to penetrate spell resistance twice? You need the BBEG not to know this is your technique or he could have an ally standing by with a readied action to wake him up should he fall asleep in combat...

1) What do you think your fighter/rogue is doing? If you are not the only martial in the party (which you probably are not) then they are probably right there with you, so someone in reach is not that hard

2) Its called holding yoru action to before your melee buddy... or he can hold his until after your turn

3) Sure there are some weird times where Melee Touch Attacks are harder to land... but those are odd cornor cases. Most traditional enemies have Piss Poor Touch AC (as demonstrated by all the complaints of the Gunslinger...)

4) Su ability... no SR...

5) If he has a guy who is literally just sitting there doing nothing... that is all the better because now there is a guy taken out of combat... or you can cut down the mook. Not that hard...


Well this is certainly one way to take some heat off the Slumber Hex.

Regards,
DRS


K177Y C47 wrote:
What do you think your fighter/rogue is doing? If you are not the only martial in the party (which you probably are not) then they are probably right there with you, so someone in reach is not that hard

Not incredibly hard (assuming the enemy is standing on the ground close to the martial ally with nothing in the way), but to avoid giving the enemy a chance to be woken up, you need a combo like:

A: Fighter charges the enemy.
B: Enemy gets a round to do whatever he wants - retreat, kill the fighter, turn invisible, etc.
C: If the enemy and fighter are still adjacent, Warpriest moves in and double-touches the bad guy.
D: Fighter inflicts coup-de-grace.
Quite a lot of things could go wrong between A & C.
It's an effective technique, but not an instant kill. If you have a third ally who can teleport the fighter to the right position, it gets easier.


There is a feat in the ACG that lets slayers use Coup de Grace as a swift action without provoking AoOs, Merciless Butchery. It requires Dastardly Finish though, so it won't come online till the mid-late game.


Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with the ability.

You waste a ton of blessings, a feat and relies on two consecutive touch attacks and an adjacent friend.

Sure its great against a BBEG if he is all alone and the party is not depleted, but then again that guy is doomed anyway in such circumstances (as he should).

Frankly I would be a lot more concerned with a non-depleted wizard/arcanist/sorcerer.


There's an item in ISG that removes the provoke clause from Coup de Graces

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