I stack Monk with MORE MONK (actually Warpriest)! And other random noodlings from the ACG.


Advice

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Just a note. Haven't seen it mentioned here, but Sacred Fist is missing the same "can't flurry in armor" blurb Sohei is missing. So, you could wear brawling armor if you wanted to, although that ruins your double dip in wis to AC.

Dark Archive

I think it's an oversight, rather than intention, LoneKnave.

I expect that the Sacred Fist will either be able to double dip on Wisdom to AC from a Monk dip, or be able to Flurry while wearing armor, but I doubt both are intended. It is more likely that they will ixnay the double dipping on Wisdom than the ability to Flurry in armor, though.

If such a change is made, then Master of Many Styles/Sohei is probably going to become the go-to for this build, wearing Brawling light armor.

Spoiler:
On a vaguely related note, could you make a Brawling Mithril Breastplate? Mithril claims it makes the item act as an armor category lower for all reasons except proficiency, meaning that if you could get Medium Armor Proficiency, you could use it. I am just not sure on the exact wording of the Brawling property.


Sure, it was an oversight with the Sohei as well, and they still went with it.

Surprised me actually.


I'm quite curious as to what the interaction with pummeling/dragon style is.

In either case a dex based sacred fist with a bow is likely better as a zen archer.

If you want to be a dex character another class would suit it better. WP is already average enough.

Dark Archive

I doubt that the Dragon Style bonus will affect more than the first attack you roll. I would imagine that with Horn of the Criosphinx and Dragon Style/Ferocity, you would get the following on a charge:

. . Attack 1: 2.5x Str mod on this hit
. . Attack 2-X: 2x Str mod on this hit

Then add it all up with Pummeling style, like normal.

On the subject of Dex builds: There are always claims that going Dex builds lets you focus on fewer stats, while getting better defenses, but then it proceeds to spend 2+ feats, extra dips and a bunch of other resources on making it actually work.

I am totally not sold on it being anywhere near as powerful as a standard Strength-based Sacred Fist. The damage is significantly less, it doesn't really have THAT much better defenses, you are still really MAD, and it's super feat starved, even above and beyond the normal Sacred Fist.


Seranov wrote:

I would imagine that with Horn of the Criosphinx and Dragon Style/Ferocity, you would get the following on a charge:

. . Attack 1: 2.5x Str mod on this hit
. . Attack 2-X: 2x Str mod on this hit

Then add it all up with Pummeling style, like normal.

Horn of the Criosphinx is amazing for the Sacred Fist/MoMS build. What is the earliest level you can get this feat when juggling between the 2 classes - Sacred Fist/MoMS? If I could get Horn of the Criosphinx earlier by only getting 1 level of MoMS early on, it would be worth it.

Dark Archive

Level 9 is the absolute earliest you can get it, I think. Regardless of if you're MoMS 2/Warpriest X or MoMS 1/Warpriest X, it needs 6 BAB, which you don't get until level 9.


Wouldn't every attack for the dragon style / ferocity, horn of the criosphinx combo be 2.5x Str (2x for Horn of the Criosphinx, .5x for dragon ferocity, dragon style is just a way to get dragon ferocity).

prototype00

Dark Archive

I suppose you're right. Only Dragon Style has the restriction about only being the first hit in a round. As far as Dragon Style goes, though, I think what I said before holds true. 2.5x on the first attack, 2x on all the following ones, even if they're all made into a single attack.

That said, if Crane Style works on it, negating the whole damn attack, then I guess it's not too much of a stretch to say that you get the full bonus on everything? Maybe? Not a clue.


prototype00 wrote:

Wouldn't every attack for the dragon style / ferocity, horn of the criosphinx combo be 2.5x Str (2x for Horn of the Criosphinx, .5x for dragon ferocity, dragon style is just a way to get dragon ferocity).

prototype00

By the way, we still haven't come up with a name for this amazing build. How about Hidden Dragon Pummelling Sphinx?


c873788 wrote:
prototype00 wrote:

Wouldn't every attack for the dragon style / ferocity, horn of the criosphinx combo be 2.5x Str (2x for Horn of the Criosphinx, .5x for dragon ferocity, dragon style is just a way to get dragon ferocity).

prototype00

By the way, we still haven't come up with a name for this amazing build. How about Hidden Dragon Pummelling Sphinx?

You've got my vote.

Dark Archive

Sure, why not?


The Horn says it works for the charge attack only?


Seranov wrote:

I suppose you're right. Only Dragon Style has the restriction about only being the first hit in a round. As far as Dragon Style goes, though, I think what I said before holds true. 2.5x on the first attack, 2x on all the following ones, even if they're all made into a single attack.

That said, if Crane Style works on it, negating the whole damn attack, then I guess it's not too much of a stretch to say that you get the full bonus on everything? Maybe? Not a clue.

I think you still get the 2.5 strenght damage on every atks after the charge. Ferocity states that u gain the bonus while you are in dragon style...well you are, it doesn't mention charge or anything.

Dragon style gives you the +2 bonus on saving throws while you are using that style.

ferocity:

Quote:
While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus.

Dragon style

Quote:
While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw.


Quote:
Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
Quote:
As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit.

It seems that with pummeling style you pool all your hits into one for the purposes of say DR. Doesn't that mean all damage roles get dragon style bonus?


I would also say it like this. Its not "your first damage roll" but "roll for your first unarmed strike". So i would say with Pummeling Style, maximum Dragon-Style-first-roll-bonus to all!!

Dark Archive

Would be nice if that's the case. Think I should start a thread and try and get FAQ requests for it?


I don't think it's the case it was more a possibility dependent on how the first line reads after the inevitable errata.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

For those who are poo-pooing the Dex-based warpriest idea, here's a quick example: Human, 20-Point Buy, 7th level (standard WBL, no items more than 25% WBL)

AC 22 and +10 attack/+5 damage bonus unarmed (pre-buffed)

Spoiler:
Dual Talent (+2 Dex, +2 Wis)
12 Str (2 pts), 20 Dex (10 pts, +2 race, +2 enhancement), 14 Con (5 pts), 10 Int (0 pts), 19 Wis (5 pts, +2 race, +1 advancement, +2 enhancement), 8 Cha (-2 pts)
Favored Class: Warpriest (+1/6 bonus feat)

Warpriest (Sacred Fist) 1/Swashbuckler 1/Warpriest +5
Wrp 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike*, Boar Style
Swb 1 - (Weapon Finesse)
Wrp 2 - Weapon Focus (Nine-ring Broadsword)
Wrp 3 - +1 Wis
Wrp 4 - Slashing Grace
Wrp 6 - Boar Ferocity*, Snake Style*, Piranha Strike

Skills: Acrobatics 1 (+9), Intimidate 7 (+9), Perception 1 (+8), Sense Motive 7 (+14)

Magic Items (23,500 gp): amulet of mighty fists (agile) (5,000 gp), belt of incredible dexterity +2 (4,000 gp), bracers of armor +2 (4,000 gp), headband of inspired wisdom +2 (4,000 gp), 6,500 gp other gear

Switch between Boar Style for unarmed offense (rend damage) and Snake Style for defense (Sense Motive check to avoid attacks).

Yes, I'm minimizing panache (not worth investing in Cha for this character). Yes, the items are vanilla other than the amulet of mighty fists (possibly add a masterwork composite longbow with a Str bonus, some cold iron arrows with silver weapon blanch, a +1 nine-ring broadsword, and a wand of cure light wounds in the other gear).

Dark Archive

Just going to point out that the level 5 Oni-spawn Tiefling MoMS 2/Sacred Fist 3 that prototype posted earlier in the thread has slightly better AC, much better damage and is far more mobile (Dragon Style/Ferocity + Pummeling Style/Charge means that you don't need to sit in your square and full attack, or be relegated to 5-ft steps as your only form of movement).

I remain unimpressed with the Dex-based Sacred Fist.

Grand Lodge

LoneKnave wrote:
Just a note. Haven't seen it mentioned here, but Sacred Fist is missing the same "can't flurry in armor" blurb Sohei is missing. So, you could wear brawling armor if you wanted to, although that ruins your double dip in wis to AC.

It works like the monk ability of the same name, which can't be used if the character is wearing armor.


Oncoming_Storm wrote:
LoneKnave wrote:
Just a note. Haven't seen it mentioned here, but Sacred Fist is missing the same "can't flurry in armor" blurb Sohei is missing. So, you could wear brawling armor if you wanted to, although that ruins your double dip in wis to AC.
It works like the monk ability of the same name, which can't be used if the character is wearing armor.

The monk ability of the same name doesn't include that restriction either. It's a different section of monk that includes that restriction. It's in the armor proficiency.


Dragonchess Player wrote:

For those who are poo-pooing the Dex-based warpriest idea, here's a quick example: Human, 20-Point Buy, 7th level (standard WBL, no items more than 25% WBL)

AC 22 and +10 attack/+5 damage bonus unarmed (pre-buffed)

** spoiler omitted **

Switch between Boar Style for unarmed offense (rend damage) and Snake Style for defense (Sense Motive check to avoid attacks).

Yes, I'm minimizing panache (not worth investing in Cha for this character). Yes, the items are vanilla other than the amulet of mighty fists (possibly add a masterwork composite longbow with a Str bonus, some cold iron arrows with silver weapon blanch, a +1 nine-ring broadsword, and a wand of cure light wounds in the other gear).

In addition to having worse AC/Damage/mobility/utility the above build is not legal.

You cannot take the human favored racial trait of 1/6th bonus feat until WP 3.


My take on this

Spoiler:

Oni Spawn tiefling
Warpriest of Desna
Sacred Fist archetype

STR 18
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 18
CHA 5

Traits: Fate's favored, Magical Knack
Blessings: Luck, Good
Warpriest Sacred Fist 1: Pummeling Style, Improved unarmed strike
Warpriest Sacred Fist 2:
Master of Many styles 1: Power attack, Pummeling Charge
Warpriest Sacred Fist 3:
Warpriest Sacred Fist 4: Dragon Style
Warpriest Sacred Fist 5:
Warpriest Sacred Fist 6: Dragon Ferocity
Warpriest Sacred Fist 7:
Warpriest Sacred Fist 8: Combat style master
Warpriest Sacred Fist 9:
Warpriest Sacred Fist 10: Improved initative
OR
Warpriest Sacred Fist 1: Pummeling Style, Improved unarmed strike
Master of Many styles 1 Iron Mountain: Pummeling Charge
Master of Many styles 2 Iron Mountain: Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, Toughness +1 AC.
Warpriest Sacred Fist 2:
Warpriest Sacred Fist 3: Power attack
Warpriest Sacred Fist 4:
Warpriest Sacred Fist 5: Improved Initative
Warpriest Sacred Fist 6:
Warpriest Sacred Fist 7: Combat Style master
Warpriest Sacred Fist 8:
Warpriest Sacred Fist 9: Divine Interference


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Fixed feat progression for the Dex warpriest (sacred fist):

1) Wrp 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike*, Weapon Finesse
Swb 1 - (Weapon Finesse)
Wrp 2 - Boar Style, retrain Weapon Finesse to Weapon Focus (Nine-ring Broadsword) for 150 gp

Keeps unarmed combat attack bonus high (based on Dex) from 1st level on.

Alternately, starting with swashbuckler allows a slightly higher damage capability (and possibly a slightly higher AC) at 1st level.

2) Swb 1 - (Weapon Finesse), Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Wrp 1 - Improved Unarmed Attack*, retrain Weapon Focus (Rapier) to Weapon Focus (Nine-ring Broadsword) for 100 gp
Wrp 2 - Boar Style

If your GM doesn't allow retraining, then you could burn your 1st level feat on something that will only really benefit you at 2nd level.

3) Swb 1 - (Weapon Finesse), Weapon Focus (Nine-ring Broadsword)
Wrp 1 - Improved Unarmed Attack*
Wrp 2 - Boar Style

For the first four levels, a Str-based character will definitely have a higher melee DPR. However, by 5th-7th level, when Slashing Grace kicks in and the character can afford an amulet of mighty fists (agile), the Dex-based character can get pretty close to the Str-based character's DPR.


What exactly do you gain over a str based Pummeling/Dragon style build?

At higher levels Dragons ferocity and horn of the criosphinx make the damage from other builds low.

The biggest problem with the above build is that without pummeling style your damage is lacking 90% of the time.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

There's a reason like 90% of Barbarians take Beast Totem, after all.


I know when I played my Tiger Style and Tiger Claws build with dragon style I got 1.5 damage on both hits b/c it was one attack. Unless they errata it Pummeling charge is 1 attack and Dragon Style gives you 1.5 on your first attack. By raw your only making 1 attack. so 18str with Dragon Style Dragon Ferocity and Horn I believe would look like +12(4+4+2+2) on each attack that hits. The crazy thing to me is the if you confirm one of these attacks all of them crit.


Ashe wrote:
I know when I played my Tiger Style and Tiger Claws build with dragon style I got 1.5 damage on both hits b/c it was one attack. Unless they errata it Pummeling charge is 1 attack and Dragon Style gives you 1.5 on your first attack. By raw your only making 1 attack. so 18str with Dragon Style Dragon Ferocity and Horn I believe would look like +12(4+4+2+2) on each attack that hits. The crazy thing to me is the if you confirm one of these attacks all of them crit.

Considering if you chose ragatheil and go with large bastard sword you can charge flurry at 17-20x2 2d8+20 or higher by 7th which is bonkers.

Scarab Sages

Undone wrote:
Ashe wrote:
I know when I played my Tiger Style and Tiger Claws build with dragon style I got 1.5 damage on both hits b/c it was one attack. Unless they errata it Pummeling charge is 1 attack and Dragon Style gives you 1.5 on your first attack. By raw your only making 1 attack. so 18str with Dragon Style Dragon Ferocity and Horn I believe would look like +12(4+4+2+2) on each attack that hits. The crazy thing to me is the if you confirm one of these attacks all of them crit.
Considering if you chose ragatheil and go with large bastard sword you can charge flurry at 17-20x2 2d8+20 or higher by 7th which is bonkers.

First off, Pummeling Style is clearly intended to be unarmed only, and it will most likely be clarified as such in the first round of ACG FAQs.

Secondly, the accuracy penalties you deal with on a flurry combined with the penalty for using a large weapon mean that you will not be hitting on most of those attacks. You only threaten on a 17 if the attack hits.

If you really want to be silly with it, play a Druegar Grey Disciple, flurry with the large bastard sword that becomes huge when you use expansion.


I mean You can worship the sun for a 15-20 crit range without the large part.

As for intent I agree but PFS Intent is irrelevant.

Scarab Sages

This kind of attitude is terrible for PFS and. Is responsible for the crane wing nerf. When people abuse raw like this one of two things will happen. Either the feat will be nerfed, or it will be banned. Either way, unarmed monks loose the thing that was making life nice for once.


Imbicatus wrote:
This kind of attitude is terrible for PFS and. Is responsible for the crane wing nerf. When people abuse raw like this one of two things will happen. Either the feat will be nerfed, or it will be banned. Either way, unarmed monks loose the thing that was making life nice for once.

I'm not doing it. I'm using IUAS because its too many feats to get the cheesy 85% chance to crit.

My point is that you don't get to RAI at a PFS table. If someone walks up to your table with a large bastard sword pummeling charge (Via MoMS), and is a paladin with oath of vengeance you can't just disprove of his build and alter it and you can't force him to play another character (Bullying).

Unless you turn the player away for his character builds (Something likely to get you in trouble) RAI does not matter for PFS. RAW is all that matters.

House rule how you want but PFS doesn't recognize it.


My attitude when something is clearly not working as intended AND is extremely powerful I just stay away from it on principle. Abusing weird loopholes to make Throwing: Shoes viable? By all means, whatever, go nuts. But if something is actually mechanically too strong and clearly not intended, it's time to pump the brakes

These kinds of loop holes only end poorly:
- Unfair to other players or GMs and you run the risk of everyone not having a good time (it is a social game after all).
- Boring to play, makes PFS content trivial.
- In a home game it leads to the GM over-compensating, which runs the risk of making some party members feel useless.
- It gets errata'ed and your character is now a giant pile. Hope you can respec.


stoolpigeon87 wrote:


These kinds of loop holes only end poorly:
- Unfair to other players or GMs and you run the risk of everyone not having a good time (it is a social game after all).

The same could be true of all full casters at levels >5. My completely RAW/RAI Summoning Druid with an animal companion once accidentally pulled the entire adventure into one encounter in a season 3 and we killed it all easily. I've also won encounters outright with singular spells (Lesser dazing rods come to mind.)

stoolpigeon87 wrote:


- Boring to play, makes PFS content trivial.

See above. You don't have to use questionable rules to trivialize pfs content.

stoolpigeon87 wrote:
- In a home game it leads to the GM over-compensating, which runs the risk of making some party members feel useless.

In a home game they can ban it.

stoolpigeon87 wrote:
- It gets errata'ed and your character is now a giant pile. Hope you can respec.

If a rule get's changed the associated rule can be changed. Considering that flurrying with crusaders flurry is incredibly powerful in and of itself regardless of pummeling style it's just pruning unneeded power.

Scarab Sages

Undone wrote:
stoolpigeon87 wrote:


These kinds of loop holes only end poorly:
- Unfair to other players or GMs and you run the risk of everyone not having a good time (it is a social game after all).

The same could be true of all full casters at levels >5. My completely RAW/RAI Summoning Druid with an animal companion once accidentally pulled the entire adventure into one encounter in a season 3 and we killed it all easily. I've also won encounters outright with singular spells (Lesser dazing rods come to mind.)

stoolpigeon87 wrote:


- Boring to play, makes PFS content trivial.

See above. You don't have to use questionable rules to trivialize pfs content.

stoolpigeon87 wrote:
- In a home game it leads to the GM over-compensating, which runs the risk of making some party members feel useless.

In a home game they can ban it.

stoolpigeon87 wrote:
- It gets errata'ed and your character is now a giant pile. Hope you can respec.
If a rule get's changed the associated rule can be changed. Considering that flurrying with crusaders flurry is incredibly powerful in and of itself regardless of pummeling style it's just pruning unneeded power.

Self moderation solves all of those issues.

Just because something can be done is no excuse to do it.


Undone wrote:
snip

Yeah, we all know that the game isn't balanced enough and that it requires both self moderation and an unspoken social contract that all participants will play fair (what that means changes from group to group, obviously).

That still doesn't mean someone should make builds around clearly unintentional rules that are too good to be true. Either it will make other players unhappy, get errata'ed, or lead to a local banning (or most likely some combination of the three).

So why bother?

Now, sweet builds trying to optimize dumb, gimmicky, underpowered stuff by twisting the rules, that's totally cool.


So something interesting I noticed is we could easily take pummeling bully off MoMS 2 since you can take Dragon style at 5 and dragon ferocity at 7.

I'm not sure if pummeling bully would provoke though as free actions don't really provoke AoO's often.

SF1: Pummeling Style
MoMS1: Pummeling charge
MoMS2: Power attack, Pummeling bully
SF2:
SF3: Dragon Style
SF4:
SF5: Dragon Ferocity
SF6: Snake style
SF7: Combat style master
SF8:
SF9: Divine interference

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