I stack Monk with MORE MONK (actually Warpriest)! And other random noodlings from the ACG.


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Dark Archive

It's pretty much the only thing that makes Crane Style any good after the nerf. :3


Undone wrote:
Seranov wrote:

The 2nd level doesn't change your BAB for Flurry (as Monk 2 gives +1 BAB), and it gives you a number of things. You also grab Toughness and +1 natural armor (or Evasion if you're not a Sacred Mountain) and +1 to all saves, on top of that prerequisite-free feat.

You're welcome to only go Monk 1/Warpriest X, but it's not a cut-and-dry better option, in my opinion.

It's not the BAB for flurry I worry about it's the # of attacks. You lose attacks at some levels.

The second and third extra attacks gotten from flurry, are to my eye exponentially worse than the first attack (since they are at -5 and -10).

If I could just have the first extra attack and full BaB -2, I'd probably be pretty happy as is.

prototype00


prototype00 wrote:
Undone wrote:
Seranov wrote:

The 2nd level doesn't change your BAB for Flurry (as Monk 2 gives +1 BAB), and it gives you a number of things. You also grab Toughness and +1 natural armor (or Evasion if you're not a Sacred Mountain) and +1 to all saves, on top of that prerequisite-free feat.

You're welcome to only go Monk 1/Warpriest X, but it's not a cut-and-dry better option, in my opinion.

It's not the BAB for flurry I worry about it's the # of attacks. You lose attacks at some levels.

The second and third extra attacks gotten from flurry, are to my eye exponentially worse than the first attack (since they are at -5 and -10).

If I could just have the first extra attack and full BaB -2, I'd probably be pretty happy as is.

prototype00

Statistically speaking the first attack at levels >=7 should be near a 2 in terms of hitting. Which means the first iterative hit should be ~7, the second should be ~12 to hit. An extra 45% chance to get another hit off is awesome. So yes iterative attacks help.

Silver Crusade

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Alexander Augunas wrote:

Here is an important clause to note that will likely ruin the OP's day.

In the Advanced Class Guide, on Page 8, we get the following paragraph:

Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices by the parent classes and vice versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).

Although the monk is not listed as a parent class to the warpriest, one can argue that the "point" of the sacred fist is to swap the fighter parent aspect of the warpriest for a monk parent.

For this reason, these "redundant" abilities (namely flurry of blows) likely don't stack because each flurry modifies something else. The monk's alters the monk's BAB while the warpriest's alters the warpriest's BAB. So if you use the monk's flurry of blows (a full-round action), you don't get to alter your warpriest BAB and vice versa because nowhere in either ability does it say that these abilities stack.

That said, we'll have to wait for some official FAQs from the design time before we get anything official.

Except it isn't a Monk parent class RAW. RAI, I totally agree with you and in my home game I'd have to think about this long and hard, but for PFS, he gets the double dip.

Sczarni

prototype00 wrote:

So, what if I told you that the class most complimentary to the Monk in the ACG is not the Brawler (gosh no, never mix Brawler and monk*), but the Warpriest?

Specifically the Sacred Fist Archetype. Here are the pros:

1. It gives you flurry, which if you traded it away for something from monk (such as going MoMS, highly recommended by the way!) is basically free full BaB attacking, nice!

2. Wisdom to AC twice. No two ways about it, the wisdom to AC stacks by RAW (one is from an Ex ability and one is from a Su ability and both are unnamed, the very definition of things that stack). This is worth it by itself to dip monk.

3. Spells and Swift action buffing from Warpriest. While boosting that wisdom, why not boost your spells/day and your ability to cast them?

A simple beginning build would be as follows:

1. Warpriest (Sacred Fist) 1: Free Feat - Pick up that flurrying and go to town. Full BaB for the win!
2. Warpriest (Sacred Fist) 2: - Fervor, for great justice!
3. Warpriest (Sacred Fist) 2/ Monk 1: Dragon Style / Pummeling Style - Fuse those Styles! Fuse them!
4. Warpriest 2/ Monk 2: Pummeling Charge - Basically the apex of your 1st 5 levels
5. Warpriest 3/ Monk 2: Dragon Ferocity - So much damage!

Later you can pick up Janni Style (double the unarmed damage when you charge) and Horn of the Criosphinx (Double the strength! Well more accurately 2.5x the Strength). And probably style master, since you are going to get a couple more style feats for free.

I'd mostly keep going with Warpriest levels, since you get ki points and spells from it.

prototype00

*Well, actually it might be good, but I haven't given it much thought.

WOW. I just made this Today, discovering a FANTASTIC combo, and I did NOT realize that the AC Bonuses actually Stack. Is this still true RAW? Or has there been a Dev post clarifying otherwise?

Right now I've got a Dex/Wis build I'm working on(MOMS-Monk/2 + Sacred Fist Warpriest):

FEATS -> CLASS ABILITY -> BONUS FEAT
LvL 1 Combat Reflexes -> Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist -> Snake Style
LvL 2 None -> Evasion -> Snake Fang
LvL 3 Staggering Fist -> Aura, Blessings(minor), Orisons, IUS, AC Bonus, Flurry of Blows -> None
LvL 4 None -> Fervor 1d6 -> None
LvL 5 Piranha Strike -> Blessed Fortitude -> None
LvL 6 None -> Channel Energy -> None
LvL 7 ???? -> Fervor 2d6 -> None
LvL 8 None -> None -> Pummeling Style
LvL 9 Punishing Kick -> Ki Pool -> None
LvL 10 None -> Fervor 3d6 -> None
LvL 11 Befuddling Strike -> Miraculous Fortitude -> None
LvL 12 None -> Blessings(major) -> None
LvL 13 ???? -> Fervor 4d6 -> None
LvL 14 None -> None -> Pummeling Charge
LvL 15 Dazing Fist -> None -> None
LvL 16 None -> Fervor 5d6 -> None
LvL 17 None -> None -> ????
LvL 18 None -> None -> None
LvL 19 None -> Fervor 6d6 -> None
LvL 20 None -> None -> Pummeling Bully

Human Bonus Feat of WF

It's slowly trucking along...


Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
WOW. I just made this Today, discovering a FANTASTIC combo, and I did NOT realize that the AC Bonuses actually Stack. Is this still true RAW? Or has there been a Dev post clarifying otherwise?

Unclear at this time, perhaps you would like to go here and add your voice to the 140 FAQ hits we already have.

I'm really unsure of it myself. I could see them going either way on the ruling. Arguments on both sides are strong.

Sczarni

Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
WOW. I just made this Today, discovering a FANTASTIC combo, and I did NOT realize that the AC Bonuses actually Stack. Is this still true RAW? Or has there been a Dev post clarifying otherwise?
Unclear at this time, perhaps you would like to go here and add your voice to the 140 FAQ hits we already have.

Thanks a bunch! I'll certainly check out this thread.


Isn't picking up dragon style so early pointless since you can't use it pre 9th? I'm still not sure I understand the point. The 6th level style feat and the 7th normal feats can be dragon style and dragon ferocity.

You can only enter 1 style per round. Meaning you cannot use dragon style to combo charge with pummeling style til 9th.

Dark Archive

You could always

Quote:

Round 1: Start the combat, enter Pummeling style stance and use a Blessing, possibly move into a more favorable position for charging.

Round 2: Enter Dragon style stance, charge and make a full attack with Pummeling charge


Seranov wrote:

You could always

Quote:

Round 1: Start the combat, enter Pummeling style stance and use a Blessing, possibly move into a more favorable position for charging.

Round 2: Enter Dragon style stance, charge and make a full attack with Pummeling charge

I mean you can also not take pummeling style and still full attack on the second round with buffs.

You're literally negating your own feats by not pummeling charging on turn 1.
EDIT: At that point you'd literally get more damage by skipping pummeling style for dragon style and not using the blessing.


Undone wrote:
Seranov wrote:

You could always

Quote:

Round 1: Start the combat, enter Pummeling style stance and use a Blessing, possibly move into a more favorable position for charging.

Round 2: Enter Dragon style stance, charge and make a full attack with Pummeling charge

I mean you can also not take pummeling style and still full attack on the second round with buffs.

You're literally negating your own feats by not pummeling charging on turn 1.
EDIT: At that point you'd literally get more damage by skipping pummeling style for dragon style and not using the blessing.

It is equally viable to take one or two levels of MoMS, as Seranov has stated, there are things that you get with the one that you don't with the other. If all you want is to get FoB extra attacks earlier, well and good, take the first level only.

The fact that it takes extra turns worth of swift actions to get going as a Warpriest is something that has already come up with regards to spells and suchlike. Taking two levels of MoMS monk is unlikely to change that.

For me, I like the second level of MoMS.

prototype00


prototype00 wrote:
Undone wrote:
Seranov wrote:

You could always

Quote:

Round 1: Start the combat, enter Pummeling style stance and use a Blessing, possibly move into a more favorable position for charging.

Round 2: Enter Dragon style stance, charge and make a full attack with Pummeling charge

I mean you can also not take pummeling style and still full attack on the second round with buffs.

You're literally negating your own feats by not pummeling charging on turn 1.
EDIT: At that point you'd literally get more damage by skipping pummeling style for dragon style and not using the blessing.

It is equally viable to take one or two levels of MoMS, as Seranov has stated, there are things that you get with the one that you don't with the other. If all you want is to get FoB extra attacks earlier, well and good, take the first level only.

The fact that it takes extra turns worth of swift actions to get going as a Warpriest is something that has already come up with regards to spells and suchlike. Taking two levels of MoMS monk is unlikely to change that.

For me, I like the second level of MoMS.

prototype00

There are advantages to MoMS2 I admit but damage isn't one of them. I actually always thought you could activate two styles at the same time with fuse style. (You can it's just higher level)

The only issue I see with it is there are no style feats to take at 7th (6 WP) that would be worth using over what you have. I feel like cheating it early for early power leads to long term losses. I'd argue that WP 10/MoMS 1 is stronger than WP 9/MoMS2 on major blessings/spells alone. It's more noticeable once you reach level 6+.

It's not that your build is bad (It's quite good) I just think that it leads to long term minor losses of overall strength for minor early game defensive abilities.

It's not bad at all I just think the extra MoMS level only offers +1 saves, Toughness and 1 AC or evasion. None of which is to me worth a spell progression level or flurry progression, or fervor progression, or Major blessings from ever being used, or negating your bonus feat.

Silver Crusade

In my opinion, the 2nd level of MoMS is worth it simply for picking up Evasion. What I really wish is that there was an unarmed inquisitor archetype that got a flurry-esque class feature, then I could get Evasion and Stalwart and never have to worry about partial effects after a made save.

Silver Crusade

How does this look for a start to a warpriest 9/MoMS 2

clicky:
Long Zhi Chen
Human (Tian-Shu) Warpriest (Sacred Fist) 1
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +6
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 16, touch 16, flat-footed 12 (+4 Dex, +2 untyped)
hp 10 (1d8+2)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +4 (1d6+3)
Ranged sling +4 (1d4+2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows
Warpriest (Sacred Fist) Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +3):
1st—divine favor, magic weapon
0 (at will)—detect magic, read magic, stabilize
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +0; CMB +2; CMD 18
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Pummeling Style, Weapon Finesse
Traits fate's favored, quain martial artist
Skills Knowledge (religion) +4, Perception +6, Spellcraft +4
Languages Common, Tien
SQ aura, blessings, blessings (destruction blessing, war blessing), destructive attacks +1, unarmed strike, war mind
Combat Gear alchemist's fire (2); Other Gear sling, sling bullets (10), backpack, masterwork, ball (2 in.), earplugs, grappling hook, silk rope (50 ft.), 48 gp, 7 sp, 13 cp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Aura (Ex) The character has a strong aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Blessings (3/day) (Su) Pool of power used to activate Blessing abilities.
Destructive Attacks +1 (Su) Touched ally gains a morale bonus to dam for 1 min.
Earplugs +2 save vs. hearing effects, -5 hearing-based Perception.
Fate's Favored Increase luck bonuses by 1.
Flurry of Blows -1/-1 (Ex) As full-rd action, higher BAB and combo unarmed/monk wep as if two-weapon fighting.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Pummeling Style As full-rd act, make normal full attack or flurry, adding all dmg together into 1 hit.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) Extra unarmed strike dam, no off-hand dam reduction and don't need free hands to att.
War Mind (Su) Touched ally can choose one each rd: +10 speed, +1 AC, +1 att, +1 save.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
In my opinion, the 2nd level of MoMS is worth it simply for picking up Evasion.

The Evasion vs Toughness issue for optimization hasn't been explored/debated enough. Sacred Fist gains Blessed Fortitude at 3rd level which in many circumstances appears to have the same effect (if I'm reading it properly) as Evasion. Is it worth it to have both? Could you use both against a Fireball for instance. Oh, I failed my reflex save for Evasion. Hang on, I'm going to make a fortitude save now to see if I can avoid damage anyway. Oh, failed that as well. Hold on a second, I'll now use my stored up Luck blessing to re-roll Blessed Fortitude.

My question is rules-wise, would you be able to use all these one after the other?


c873788 wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
In my opinion, the 2nd level of MoMS is worth it simply for picking up Evasion.

The Evasion vs Toughness issue for optimization hasn't been explored/debated enough. Sacred Fist gains Blessed Fortitude at 3rd level which in many circumstances appears to have the same effect (if I'm reading it properly) as Evasion. Is it worth it to have both? Could you use both against a Fireball for instance. Oh, I failed my reflex save for Evasion. Hang on, I'm going to make a fortitude save now to see if I can avoid damage anyway. Oh, failed that as well. Hold on a second, I'll now use my stored up Luck blessing to re-roll Blessed Fortitude.

My question is rules-wise, would you be able to use all these one after the other?

For the most part you only get one type of save for a given spell(there are exceptions) but you would only get the one. It's useful because you could completely avoid damage from reflex saves and fortitude saves separately.

Scarab Sages

Blessed Fortitude only applies on fortitude saves. You can't use it against a fireball or other reflex save. You could use it against a Horrid Wilting spell, for example.


Imbicatus wrote:
Blessed Fortitude only applies on fortitude saves. You can't use it against a fireball or other reflex save. You could use it against a Horrid Wilting spell, for example.

It should be noted that Improved Blessed Fortitude is bonkers the freeking heck broken. It's partial vs ALL EFFECTS which require a fortitude save and like all other rounding it rounds down.

1 point of ability damage.
1 Point of ability DRAIN

Quote:
The Evasion vs Toughness issue for optimization hasn't been explored/debated enough. Sacred Fist gains Blessed Fortitude at 3rd level which in many circumstances appears to have the same effect (if I'm reading it properly) as Evasion. Is it worth it to have both?

Statistically speaking toughness and 1 ac is better because evasion doesn't come up enough and your AC is not 0.


Undone wrote:

It should be noted that Improved Blessed Fortitude is bonkers the freeking heck broken. It's partial vs ALL EFFECTS which require a fortitude save and like all other rounding it rounds down.

1 point of ability damage.
1 Point of ability DRAIN

You could really turn your Sacred Fist/MoMS 2 build into a tank. Take Evasion as well as Blessed Fortitude along with the Luck blessing and very few effects are going to hurt you with the Luck re-roll. It certainly doesn't hurt that 2 levels of MoMS add 3/3/3 to all your saves.

I will also be buying a wand of mage armor. My 18 wisdom bonus doubled for armour class along with the extra +4AC from the wand will give you a decent armour class at low levels. You just have to hope that someone in the party can use the wand on you.

Silver Crusade

So is this a Str based build or Dex based? Or is there some way we're getting Wis to attack rolls and we don't really need much of either?


Probably Dex based since he/she wants evasion to work well too.

The dex build gets pretty tanky and can deal decent damage with an agile amulet of mighty fists, a mere 4k investment.

prototype00

Silver Crusade

No I mean in general, not for the tank build. This character is going to have great saves almost no matter what. For offensive purposes, what is the way to go?

Basically I'm not sure how to assign ability scores for the warpriest 9/MoMs 2 build.


Either even dex/wis for the dex build or even str/wis for the dragon style build.

Your damage suffers too much otherwise.

prototype00

Silver Crusade

Yeah I ended up picking 18/14/12/12/14/7 and took Pummeling Style and Dodge at level 1. 10 hp and 17 AC at level 1 should be enough.


Can you take slashing grace if you make your UAS slashing? if so that might be good.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

For a Dragon Style combatant that can tank a bit, I came up with:
Half-orc (City-Raised, Sacred Tattoo) brawler (mutagenic mauler, shield champion)/bloodrager (blood conduit) 1
Favored Class: Brawler (+1/4 level to brawler level to determine unarmed damage)
16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha (15-point buy; racial +2 to Str)
17 Str, 14 Dex, 15 Con, 10 Int, 13 Wis, 8 Cha (20-point buy; racial +2 to Str)
18 Str, 14 Dex, 15 Con, 10 Int, 14 Wis, 8 Cha (25-point buy; racial +2 to Str)
Brw 1 - Improved Shield Bash (use a whip to trip at 15 ft reach and bash with a large shield if they get close)
Blr 1 - Improved Trip* (bloodrage for more Str)
Brw 2 - Dragon Style*, Quick Draw (wait for it...)
Brw 4 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Throwing Shield; for the 20 ft vs. 10 ft range increment)
Brw 5 - Shield Slam* (switch to a light quickdraw throwing shield to throw, catch the returning shield, and don/ready it without affecting action economy; a normal throwing shield requires a move action to don/ready for the AC bonus)
Brw 6 - Shield Focus (to qualify for the bonus Greater Shield Focus feat at Brw 9; otherwise, take something else)
Brw 8 - Stunning Fist, Dragon Ferocity*
Brw 9 - Greater Shield Focus*
Brw 10 - Elemental Fist (+3d6 elemental damage to one attack per round, up to brawler level times per day); take Preserve Organs as the alchemist discovery
Brw 11 - Pummeling Style* (use with Elemental Fist), Shield Master* (hopefully you've invested in a +4 bashing/+1 distance ki focus light quickdraw throwing shield by this point...)
Brw 12 - Dragon Roar (area effect attacks are useful)
Brw 14 - Combat Style Master (to switch between Dragon Style during the charge movement and...), Pummeling Charge* (when making the attack at the end of the charge)

Other feats to grab, either in place of Shield Focus or in the last 5 levels, include Extra Rage, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, and Recovered Rage. No Power Attack (heresy, I know...), but Dragon Style/Dragon Ferocity can give a good damage bonus (especially with all the Str boosts this character has) without taking a penalty on attack rolls.

Dark Archive

Nope. Unarmed strikes are light weapons, and Slashing Grace specifically only works with one-handed weapons. Which is a dumb distinction, honestly, but whatever.


How unfortunate. The str build is better anyway. Why make slashing grace that bad?

Dark Archive

Not a clue.

I agree that the Strength option is better (mostly because HUGE BUFF DWARF PUNCHING STUFF IN THE FACE!) but the Dex option is still doable. With Magic Weapon (and later Greater Magic Weapon), getting a plain-ol' Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists is an option that is much less painful than it would be for a normal Monk, who would need someone to cast that on him.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Re: Slashing Grace

Gee, now I can use a falcata (or sawtoothed sabre for a two-weapon fighting character) with Precise Strike (either as a swashbuckler or a duelist) and add Dex mod to damage in place of Str. Oh, and I can apply Swashbuckler Finesse to use my Dex mod in place of Str for the attack roll, as well (since it's "treated as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities...")?

Yup, what a horrible feat... [/sarcasm]

Actually, what's really fun is a dwarf swashbuckler (possibly with the picaroon archetype; axe and pistol, baby) using Slashing Grace with a dwarven waraxe.

Dark Archive

For anyone who isn't a Swashbuckler or Daring Champion Cavalier, Slashing Grace is absolutely a terrible feat. It works with a whopping two weapons that can use Weapon Focus, meaning that every other class pretty much has no use for it.

That's why, in this thread about Sacred Fist, we are saying it's not good at all. Because it's terrible for the Sacred Fist.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

One level dip in swashbuckler and use Slashing Grace with a double chicken sabre or nine-ring broadsword (both martial weapons useable in a flurry). "At 1st level, a sacred fist can make a flurry of blows attack as a full-attack action. This ability works like the monk ability of the same name." (emphasis mine)

OK, you can't use it with unarmed attacks, but that doesn't make it useless.

A sacred fist will find the deeds Dodging Panache and Opportune Parry and Riposte useful, as well.


With a low-ish to hit on non Flurry attacks, and the inherent strain on Swift Actions with both the Monk abilities, Fervor, and Style activation, the dip into Swashbuckler doesn't seem worth it. You trade dragon style str synergies, spellcasting and other warpriest stuff in exchange for less stat dependency. Opportune Parry and Riposte seems pretty awful for the above reasons and I don't think it'd be easy to fit combat reflexes in anyway.

EDIT:

I do, however, like the idea of a swashbuckler 1/brawler X, but that's for a different idea entirely.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

A (self-)buffed warpriest will likely have a comparable attack bonus to many (self-)buffed combat clerics; i.e., nearly that (or better than, in some cases) of a full BAB class (of which a swashbuckler is one). Allowing Dex to count for AC, attack rolls, and damage allows for a different approach than simply pumping Str for DPR and trying to shore up AC until reaching high-level play.

Also, since you have to burn a panache point to make the parry attempt, it's more of a occasional "this attack might hurt if it lands" than an every round/multiple opponent "you can't touch me" type thing; plus, the immediate attack on a successful parry is not itself an attack of opportunity. There's no need to take Combat Reflexes.

Dark Archive

If you're double-dipping Wisdom to AC, there's really no reason to need to focus on Dex for survivability. Yeah, you can do it, but it's hardly necessary that you'd really want to go Swashbuckler for it.

For straight damage, Strength is always a better option than Dexterity. You don't need to blow multiple feats on it, or take extra dips beyond MoMS (that this build already does), and it benefits from a number of great feats like Dragon Style/Ferocity and Horn of the Criosphinx. Since you're going to want Dragon Style anyway (because you want to be able to charge through difficult terrain, right?) it's really not saving yourself resources by going Dex-based.


As a level 1 pfs character (With 1 adventure so a CLW wand) is there anything the Sacred fist should invest in? A masterwork monk weapon perhaps? Or is that a waste.

Dark Archive

Probably wouldn't hurt. The +1 is pretty huge at that level, because you can't keep Divine Favor up through every encounter at level 1 (I think, it's been a looooong time since I played a PFS game).

I, personally, would go for a Mastework Cestus, because Cestii are super cool.

Scarab Sages

My PFS monk's first purchase was a Masterwork Cold Iron Temple Sword. Unfortunately, Sacred Fist's are not proficient in Temple Swords or the martial monk weapons like the Sansetsukon, 9 ring broadsword, or chain whip. They also aren't proficient in all Simple Weapons, so no Cestus without a penalty.

Since Sacred Fists are more limited than monks in proficiency, would get a Masterwork Cold Iron Kama and a Masterwork Alchemical Silver Nunchaku.
You have to pay for two masterok weapons, but you have two damage types and two DR overcoming metals with the plus one to hit.

Dark Archive

Well s$!!, you're right. Whoops. I don't know, then.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Combined with Dragon Style, a swashbuckler dip with Slashing Grace isn't necessarily the best option; as with my brawler above, a dip in bloodrager (especially Elemental or Infernal bloodlines for the extra energy damage) makes more sense. It's just not a "bad for all (unarmed combat focused) characters" feat as the comments read.

For a Dex-based unarmed combatant, I'd probably go Boar Style/Boar Ferocity/Boar Shred (bleed damage is nice) with a swashbuckler dip, Piranha Strike, and carry a double chicken sabre or nine-ring broadsword (or a ten-ring sword, to change effective substance types easily) to use with Slashing Grace, until I could afford an amulet of mighty fists +3 agile, to deal with substance DRs or opponents I don't want to hit with unarmed strikes (i.e., oozes, certain undead, and other creatures with "always on" touch effects).

Dark Archive

And now you can't charge through difficult terrain and your damage is still much lower than a Strength-based Sacred Fist. I just personally don't see why you would bother with it for a couple points of AC, Reflex saves and Initiative.

Silver Crusade

I agree the Str based sacred fist 9/MoMs 2 appears to get you the best of everything from both classes.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I agree the Str based sacred fist 9/MoMs 2 appears to get you the best of everything from both classes.

I'm still wavering between 9/2 and 10/1. 9/2 is definitely strong but 10/1 has it's benefits too (Full level early spells, iterative flurry hits, exct).

Dark Archive

Undone wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I agree the Str based sacred fist 9/MoMs 2 appears to get you the best of everything from both classes.
I'm still wavering between 9/2 and 10/1. 9/2 is definitely strong but 10/1 has it's benefits too (Full level early spells, iterative flurry hits, exct).

I'd definitely say it's up to the player's personal preference. I would not feel that a person will significantly weaken themselves by going one option over the other. This is the best kind of option to run in to, because it's not a "do it this way or you're wrong" kind of deal.


Seranov wrote:
Undone wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I agree the Str based sacred fist 9/MoMs 2 appears to get you the best of everything from both classes.
I'm still wavering between 9/2 and 10/1. 9/2 is definitely strong but 10/1 has it's benefits too (Full level early spells, iterative flurry hits, exct).
I'd definitely say it's up to the player's personal preference. I would not feel that a person will significantly weaken themselves by going one option over the other. This is the best kind of option to run in to, because it's not a "do it this way or you're wrong" kind of deal.

I agree. I personally am unsure if I want a 3rd style (Dragon at 7th is enough for me? I can't think of a spectacular third style, do I want evasion?) which is the most important question is do you want a 3rd style or the last pummeling style feat?

Dark Archive

I am not really all that impressed with Pummeling Bully. I'd sooner go for Boar Style/Boar Ferocity after getting Dragon Ferocity and Pummeling Charge. The ability to switch to P or S damage would be a nice bonus, in addition to some bleed damage.

Scarab Sages

I don't like using Boar Style because it's so badly written. It should be a 2d6 rend, followed by a d6 bleed, but that's not what was written, and it's never been clarified.


Clarification.

If you use dragon style fused with pummeling style it's a single hit for things like hardness/DR does that mean you get 1 1/2 str on each damage roll?


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Seranov wrote:
And now you can't charge through difficult terrain and your damage is still much lower than a Strength-based Sacred Fist. I just personally don't see why you would bother with it for a couple points of AC, Reflex saves and Initiative.

1) Charging is not the be-all and end-all.

2) Different characters, different priorities.

3) A Dex-focused character is not a "charge...SMASH!" type; instead of charging opponents, maybe they should use ranged attacks since they have a high Dex (like a composite longbow that they have proficiency in because of that swashbuckler dip)?

4) For a Dex-focused character, leaving Str at 12-14 (which Slashing Grace and a 5,000 gp amulet of mighty fists agile let you do pretty quickly, since you are now applying Dex to melee damage) and pumping Dex up to 18+ (and past 20 ASAP) is more than a "couple points of AC, Reflex saves and Initiative" over a Str-focused character (or do your "Str-based characters" have to divert resources to improving Dex, as well?).


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Dragonchess Player wrote:
Seranov wrote:
And now you can't charge through difficult terrain and your damage is still much lower than a Strength-based Sacred Fist. I just personally don't see why you would bother with it for a couple points of AC, Reflex saves and Initiative.

1) Charging is not the be-all and end-all.

2) Different characters, different priorities.

3) A Dex-focused character is not a "charge...SMASH!" type; instead of charging opponents, maybe they should use ranged attacks since they have a high Dex (like a composite longbow that they have proficiency in because of that swashbuckler dip)?

4) For a Dex-focused character, leaving Str at 12-14 (which Slashing Grace and a 5,000 gp amulet of mighty fists agile let you do pretty quickly, since you are now applying Dex to melee damage) and pumping Dex up to 18+ (and past 20 ASAP) is more than a "couple points of AC, Reflex saves and Initiative" over a Str-focused character (or do your "Str-based characters" have to divert resources to improving Dex, as well?).

If you're gonna be an archer why not try some other class completely? Say... Swashbuckler since you want the dex stuff so much...

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