I stack Monk with MORE MONK (actually Warpriest)! And other random noodlings from the ACG.


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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I just looked up Sohei and MoMS, and Alex is correct. They both either change or substitute the "Bonus Feats" and "Flurry of Blows" class features, so they are not stackable.

I was under the impression that as long as both didn't completely remove it they were still stackable. Oh well my group rules differently on this matter.

Silver Crusade

The Chort wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I just looked up Sohei and MoMS, and Alex is correct. They both either change or substitute the "Bonus Feats" and "Flurry of Blows" class features, so they are not stackable.

I don't think this is true;

Here are Bonus Feat Flurry of blow replacements for the MoMS:

Quote:
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat... This ability replaces a monk's standard bonus feats.
Quote:
Fuse Style (Ex): At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style... This ability replaces flurry of blows.

I think the Sohei replaces neither of these, but I guess you could very stringently determine that these don't stack? I don't think you have any ground to say that Flurry of Blows was replaced, but you could make the case that both change Bonus Feats.

Quote:

Bonus Feats: A sohei may select mounted combat feats as bonus feats.

Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.

It's a similar argument to the one that was made surrounding crossblooded and wildblooded sorcerer stacking. Unfortunately for sohei masters of many styles, both archetypes make modifications to the same class features, so by RAW they do not stack.


The Chort wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I just looked up Sohei and MoMS, and Alex is correct. They both either change or substitute the "Bonus Feats" and "Flurry of Blows" class features, so they are not stackable.

I don't think this is true;

Here are the Bonus Feat and Flurry of blow replacements for the MoMS:

Quote:

Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat... This ability replaces a monk's standard bonus feats.

Fuse Style (Ex): At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style... This ability replaces flurry of blows.

I think the Sohei replaces neither of these, but I guess you could very stringently determine that these don't stack? I don't think you have any ground to say that Flurry of Blows was replaced, but you could make the case that both change Bonus Feats.

Quote:

Bonus Feats: A sohei may select mounted combat feats as bonus feats.

Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.

That's my understanding as well.


Stregi wrote:
What about Energy Channel feat? It's worth it?And about equip? Robe and winged boots?

I don't know what you mean by Energy Channel feat. I've never heard of this feat. What is it supposed to do?

Silver Crusade

I can't find the specific quote on the PRD (because the new PRD is a PITA to search), but it says "replace or modify". It's fairly obvious by RAW that both sohei and MoMS modify the "Bonus Feats" class feature, although all sohei does is give you additional options while not taking anything away.


I found it. It says "Replace or alter". So yes it does technically alter bonus feats by adding to them so I guess in PFS they don't stack. But that's why I don't play PFS.


c873788 wrote:
Stregi wrote:
What about Energy Channel feat? It's worth it?And about equip? Robe and winged boots?
I don't know what you mean by Energy Channel feat. I've never heard of this feat. What is it supposed to do?
Quote:


Energy Channel
You distill your channeled energy into your weapon to empower it.
Prerequisites: Channel energy class feature; Air, Earth, Fire, or Water domain or blessing†.
Benefit: A swift action, you can expend one use of channel energy to grant your weapon attacks a bonus on damage rolls equal to twice the number of dice rolled for your channel energy. This additional damage is of an energy type determined by your domain or blessing: acid (Earth), cold (Water), electricity (Air), or fire (Fire). If you have more than one of those domains or blessings, you must choose one of those damage types when you use this ability. This effect lasts for your next three weapon attacks
or until the end of combat, whichever comes first.


The word swift action prohibits anyone from using anything. One does not simply take swift actions on a WP.


I dont see why you guy are ignoring the implication of Crusaders Flurry+ Falchion+ Pummeling Charge + Criosphinx build. Just has to be lawful evil to find a god with falchion and Strength Domain.


Undone wrote:
The word swift action prohibits anyone from using anything. One does not simply take swift actions on a WP.

That's why it's nice to have Combat Style Master so you can enter styles as a free action.

Although swift action management is part of the reason I want only 1 level dip of sacred fist war priest and go MoMS monk with the rest of my levels.


Simply because I've ruled pummeling style only works with unarmed strikes.


The Chort wrote:
Undone wrote:
The word swift action prohibits anyone from using anything. One does not simply take swift actions on a WP.

That's why it's nice to have Combat Style Master so you can enter styles as a free action.

Although swift action management is part of the reason I want only 1 level dip of sacred fist war priest and go MoMS monk with the rest of my levels.

This does not progress flurry of blows and is highly suboptimal as a result.

Additionally that enables divine favor at 9th which gives you +4 to hit and damage, effectively cap level rage.

Quote:
I dont see why you guy are ignoring the implication of Crusaders Flurry+ Falchion+ Pummeling Charge + Criosphinx build. Just has to be lawful evil to find a god with falchion and Strength Domain.

Because there is a roughly 200% chance of it being errated/FAQ'ed away. Also there is an angel deity which has that as his favored weapon.


When will that be erratad away? why should the only nice thing monks got be erratad away? No dev has came out and said anythign about it being faq'd have they?


The idea that it can be used with any weapon is what needs errata.

Silver Crusade

There's already a thread in the rules forum with some hundreds of FAQ clicks, so you can be absolutely certain it is on the dev team's RADAR.


as of right now however its the best option. Til an FAQ some along. People ask about deafened hexs frequently too and not FAQ has came out. My guess is even if they do make it monk weapons the Crusaders Flurry is still viable.


So how are your builds looking now?


Gallyck wrote:

as of right now however its the best option. Til an FAQ some along. People ask about deafened hexs frequently too and not FAQ has came out. My guess is even if they do make it monk weapons the Crusaders Flurry is still viable.

To be honest It's the best build but it's also a special kind of cheesy.

I agree in theory it is the best given what we have.

Dark Archive

Actually, now that you ask, I'm not sure if Monk 2/Warpriest 5 is capable of taking Horn of the Criosphinx at character level 7. Since you only are a 2nd level monk, and only have +4 BAB, you likely can't qualify for it (because Sacred Fist bonus feats specifically have to be style feats, or in a style chain (for warpriest 12 and 18) so you cannot use your Monk level to qualify) so I'd have to push it back to level 9.

That'd make the overall build look like

Quote:

1 - Warpriest 1 - 0 BAB - Minor Blessings, AC Bonus, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Improved Unarmed Strike, Pummeling Style

2 - Monk* 1 - 0 BAB - AC Bonus, Fuse Style, Stunning Fist, Pummeling Charge
3 - Monk* 2 - 1 BAB - Iron Monk, Toughness, Power Attack, Dragon Style
4 - Warpriest 2 - 2 BAB - Fervor 1d6
5 - Warpriest 3 - 3 BAB - Blessed Fortitude, Dragon Ferocity
6 - Warpriest 4 - 4 BAB - Channel Energy
7 - Warpriest 5 - 4 BAB - Fervor 2d6, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
8 - Warpriest 6 - 5 BAB - Boar Style
9 - Warpriest 7 - 6 BAB - Ki Pool, Horn of the Criosphinx
10 - Warpriest 8 - 7 BAB - Fervor 3d6
11 - Warpriest 9 - 7 BAB - Miraculous Fortitude, Combat Style Master
12 - Warpriest 10 - 8 BAB - Major Blessings
13 - Warpriest 11 - 9 BAB - Fervor 4d6, Improved Critical (unarmed strike)
14 - Warpriest 12 - 10 BAB - Boar Ferocity

* = Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Sacred Mountain

There is the possibility of going Warpriest 2 before going Monk, which would give me Fervor (awesome!) and an extra spell per day, but I don't personally think that'd be the best choice for me.


Apologies if this is a double post...?

Undone wrote:
The Chort wrote:
Undone wrote:
The word swift action prohibits anyone from using anything. One does not simply take swift actions on a WP.

That's why it's nice to have Combat Style Master so you can enter styles as a free action.

Although swift action management is part of the reason I want only 1 level dip of sacred fist war priest and go MoMS monk with the rest of my levels.

This does not progress flurry of blows and is highly suboptimal as a result.

Additionally that enables divine favor at 9th which gives you +4 to hit and damage, effectively cap level rage.

Huh, I perhaps mistakenly assumed something cheesy:

Sacred Fist Flurry:
Flurry of Blows (Ex)

At 1st level, a sacred fist can make a flurry of blows attack as a full-attack action. This ability works like the monk ability of the same name.

Monk Flurry:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make on additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

I was thinking monk levels would still progress this monk ability?


No they don't stack. You have a separate pseudo monk level of your cleric and a monk level from your monk. They don't stack. All it's saying is reference that other page as if it was on this page for this class.


The Chort wrote:

Apologies if this is a double post...?

Undone wrote:
The Chort wrote:
Undone wrote:
The word swift action prohibits anyone from using anything. One does not simply take swift actions on a WP.

That's why it's nice to have Combat Style Master so you can enter styles as a free action.

Although swift action management is part of the reason I want only 1 level dip of sacred fist war priest and go MoMS monk with the rest of my levels.

This does not progress flurry of blows and is highly suboptimal as a result.

Additionally that enables divine favor at 9th which gives you +4 to hit and damage, effectively cap level rage.

Huh, I perhaps mistakenly assumed something cheesy:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

RAW questionable, but MoMS doesn't get flurry so it wont stack for sure.


Monk levels would (sorta) in that you would add your BAB from the two classes. The problem though is that MoMS gives up Flurry for Fuse Style. So in your scenario you'd only have 1 level in a class with Flurry.


Part of this build's power is that you're getting the strength of the MoMS (early access to style feats) without the drawback of trading away flurry. Up until now, no other class has gotten flurry so you couldn't just multi-class the penalty away.

Edit: Half-ninja'd by Gargs


Gargs454 wrote:
Monk levels would (sorta) in that you would add your BAB from the two classes. The problem though is that MoMS gives up Flurry for Fuse Style. So in your scenario you'd only have 1 level in a class with Flurry.

I understood that that much would work, wasn't quite sure about getting the extra attacks.

Well, that's not completely terrible. You get Full BAB, get two-weapon fighting, BAB iterative attacks, you still get a Ki Pool to add an extra attack, maybe add in haste... A Warpriest 1/MoMS X wouldn't be completely gimped by this.


The Chort wrote:
Gargs454 wrote:
Monk levels would (sorta) in that you would add your BAB from the two classes. The problem though is that MoMS gives up Flurry for Fuse Style. So in your scenario you'd only have 1 level in a class with Flurry.

I understood that that much would work, wasn't quite sure about getting the extra attacks.

Well, that's not completely terrible. You get Full BAB, get two-weapon fighting, BAB iterative attacks, you still get a Ki Pool to add an extra attack, maybe add in haste... A Warpriest 1/MoMS X wouldn't be completely gimped by this.

You only get to count the warpriest levels as BAB for warpriest. You MoMS bab is unchanged for the flurry.

Dark Archive

Right. You get 3/4 BAB +1 when using Flurry as a Warpriest 1/MoMS X. But a MoMS 1-2/Warpriest X gets Full BAB -1 when using Flurry.


Technically the sacred fist ability "flurry of blows" is fairly bad since:

Advanced Class Guide wrote:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): At 1st level, a sacred fist can make a flurry of blows attack as a full-attack action. This ability works like the monk ability of the same name. This ability replaces sacred weapon.

It doesn't stat that the war priest uses their level as their effective monk level. This means technically they can use their nonexistent monk level in place of their BAB for flurrying purposes.

Pretending that line exists (as it should) and reading it as

Advanced Class Guide, potential errata wrote:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): At 1st level, a sacred fist can make a flurry of blows attack as a full-attack action. This ability works like the monk ability of the same name, using the sacred fist's level in place of monk level. This ability replaces sacred weapon.

would mean that everyone here is correct in stating your monk level's for FoB would not stack unless you also had that exact class feature from monk.

As it stands it looks like my moms swashbuckler will end up taking a few levels of warpriest when possible!

Dark Archive

Yeah, I can't see a damn reason for them to give us Flurry of Blows and then have it rely on Monk levels (that some Sacred Fists might not even have!). Only the most literal of strict-RAW nutjobs would ever consider that a Sacred Fist doesn't get to use their Warpriest levels as their BAB for Flurry.


It has just come to my attention there is no point in 2 levels of MoMS.

Quote:
At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but when the master of many styles switches to another style feat, he can choose one style whose stance is already active to persist. He may only have two style feat stances active at a time. At 8th level, the master of many styles can fuse three styles at once. He can have the stances of three style feats active at the same time. Furthermore, he can enter up to three stances as a swift action.

Since we pummeling style to charge there is no point in having multiple style feats. The final "Furthermore" occurs under the 8th level tag. I may be wrong and if I am I'd say

SF1: Pummeling style
MoMS1: Pummeling charge
MoMS2: Dragon style, Dragon Ferocity.

I'm not sure dragon style is worth it since we never get to activate all the styles at the same time. We could take both dragon style and dragon ferocity at 7th if we still wanted it but power attack could be gotten at 3rd with

SF1: Pummeling style
MoMS1: Pummeling Charge
SF2: Power attack

Silver Crusade

The first line of what you quoted says that the MoMS gets to have 2 styles active at the same time.


"The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once."

It doesn't let them activate two with the same swift action is what I'm saying.

It's two swift actions for two styles.

Dark Archive

Bigdaddyjug is right. MoMS specifically gives the ability to use more than one stance at a time (though only 2 of them at a time in this Sacred Fist build).

With Combat Style Master, you start in Pummeling Stance, and then you use your Swift (before the charge) to enter Dragon Stance.

Prior to that, you just have to hope your DM will let you wander around in one of the stances (and then enter the second when combat starts), or just suck up the fact that it'll be round 2 before you can have both up.


That's what combat style master is for. In the meantime you are probably going to swift activate pummelling style to close or if the enemy is already in your grill, you can start with dragon.


If that is the case I strongly believe we should just got MoMS 1 since the second level just robs you of FoB, spell casting, blessing,fervor, and class progression.

The 1 level dip is good though.

I recommend

SF 1) Pummeling Style
MoMS 1) Pummeling charge
SF 2) Power attack
SF 3)
SF 4) Improved initiative.
SF 5)
SF 6) Dragon Style, Dragon's Ferocity
SF 7)
SF 8) Combat Style master
SF 9)
SF 10) Horn of the Cryosphinx

Dark Archive

The 2nd level doesn't change your BAB for Flurry (as Monk 2 gives +1 BAB), and it gives you a number of things. You also grab Toughness and +1 natural armor (or Evasion if you're not a Sacred Mountain) and +1 to all saves, on top of that prerequisite-free feat.

You're welcome to only go Monk 1/Warpriest X, but it's not a cut-and-dry better option, in my opinion.


Seranov wrote:

The 2nd level doesn't change your BAB for Flurry (as Monk 2 gives +1 BAB), and it gives you a number of things. You also grab Toughness and +1 natural armor (or Evasion if you're not a Sacred Mountain) and +1 to all saves, on top of that prerequisite-free feat.

You're welcome to only go Monk 1/Warpriest X, but it's not a cut-and-dry better option, in my opinion.

It's not the BAB for flurry I worry about it's the # of attacks. You lose attacks at some levels.

Silver Crusade

The # of flurry attacks is determined by the effective BAB, isn't it?


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
The # of flurry attacks is determined by the effective BAB, isn't it?

Mostly. You get additional extra attacks as you level as if you had the Two Weapon Fighting chain.

Scarab Sages

Gargs454 wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
The # of flurry attacks is determined by the effective BAB, isn't it?
Mostly. You get additional extra attacks as you level as if you had the Two Weapon Fighting chain.

You don't get the Improved TWF equivalent until 8th level in (flurry granting class). You don't get the Greater TWF until 15th level. This is based on class level, not BAB.


And quite often I've found myself in an escalating situation were it was perfectly justified to draw a weapon or assume a fighting stance in order to defend yourself before combat actually began. Not every situation has an enemy falling on you and proceeding to attempt murder. But. Once again. That's what combat style master is for.


I know Pummeling style is a style feat, but I don't think it requires you to activate it to use it. It has no stance.

Looking at the style feats in Ultimate Combat, which do have stances, each of them says "While using this style" or "While in this style." They also have persistent effects which are modified or improved by the other feats in the chain.

This leads me to think that Pummeling Style doesn't require activation, like Power Attack it is a feat to be used when you declare it. The wording of all three Pummeling feats supports this, they make no mention of having to activate them or having an "active" state.

[edit]
NEVERMIND, just found the section in ACG that says they do have stances and require activation. Sorry.


Shadowkire wrote:

I know Pummeling style is a style feat, but I don't think it requires you to activate it to use it. It has no stance.

Looking at the style feats in Ultimate Combat, which do have stances, each of them says "While using this style" or "While in this style." They also have persistent effects which are modified or improved by the other feats in the chain.

This leads me to think that Pummeling Style doesn't require activation, like Power Attack it is a feat to be used when you declare it. The wording of all three Pummeling feats supports this, they make no mention of having to activate them or having an "active" state.

Spoiler:

Quote:

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit.

Wow... He's... Right... Although that's not the case for pummeling charge unfortunately.

Spoiler:

Quote:

As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style. You can use a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite only while in the stance of the associated style.


Sorry, I'm sure this has been asked elsewhere, but seeing the language of Pummeling Style reprinted here just reminded of a question. Is there any consensus on what the language of the last sentence "If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit." means? What I mean by that is: Do the attacks that would have missed suddenly become confirmed crits? Even assuming this gets more explicitly limited to unarmed strikes only, That's. Just. Awesome.


I'm pretty sure it just means the damage get's modified by the crit.

Dark Archive

Only the parts that hit can crit. Any part that missed still misses (0 damage x 2 = still 0). It just means that if one part crits, and is confirmed, you add up all the damage that would have been done and then multiply that number by the crit multiplier.


Gotcha, much as I love my monk, that does actually make a lot more sense. :)


Quick question, if I use Pummeling charge against a creature with Crane Wing, all the attacks I make are treated as a miss?or just the first atk of the flurry?


all since it's only 1 attack.

Scarab Sages

Crane Wing/Snake Style apply to all attack rolls since it is a single hit. Those styles are strong against the wild swings of Pummeling Style, as they should be.

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