I stack Monk with MORE MONK (actually Warpriest)! And other random noodlings from the ACG.


Advice

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Undone wrote:

As a PFS player I'm completely unsure if 1 MoMS + Sohei is better than 2 MoMS + Iron Mountain.

I'm leaning Sohei + MoMS 1 for the spectacular initiative.

Toughness and +1 ac is indeed better than evasion because you're unlikely to die from a successful reflex save.

What do you guys think is the best third style feat at level 7/8? Jabbing seems ok but not as good as dragon.

I think Boar Style is nice. That's an extra 2d6 of bleed damage per round and your unarmed strikes now count as slashing.

Another good option is Snake Style. Pump up your Sense Motive and have a ridiculously high armour class against one attack each round.

Silver Crusade

c873788 wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Well damnit another bug in HeroLab. Not that my level 1 sacred fist is doing much damage wit a flurry at +2/+2. The class just doesn't have a dump stat. I ended up going 16/14/14/10/16/10 as a dual talent human.
Why don't you dump Charisma?

I thought warpriests needed Cha for something. Since it seems they don't, Cha will be dumped down to 7.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
c873788 wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Well damnit another bug in HeroLab. Not that my level 1 sacred fist is doing much damage wit a flurry at +2/+2. The class just doesn't have a dump stat. I ended up going 16/14/14/10/16/10 as a dual talent human.
Why don't you dump Charisma?
I thought warpriests needed Cha for something. Since it seems they don't, Cha will be dumped down to 7.

If non human I'd drop Charisma.

If human I'd drop Int and charisma since you'll get the 1 skill point back.

Silver Crusade

Undone wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
c873788 wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Well damnit another bug in HeroLab. Not that my level 1 sacred fist is doing much damage wit a flurry at +2/+2. The class just doesn't have a dump stat. I ended up going 16/14/14/10/16/10 as a dual talent human.
Why don't you dump Charisma?
I thought warpriests needed Cha for something. Since it seems they don't, Cha will be dumped down to 7.

If non human I'd drop Charisma.

If human I'd drop Int and charisma since you'll get the 1 skill point back.

I'm a dual talent human, so no skilled to get the skill point back. Although 14 Con gives me 10 HP, so I can put FCB into skill point to still end up with 2 per war priest level.

So I guess I'll go 18/14/14/9/16/7.


I'm oni spawn tiefling so I can't dump both.

Dark Archive

There's Tiger Style for Slashing Damage, Boar Style for Piercing Damage, and probably others. It likely won't matter much, because Pummeling+Dragon is the t#!%.


Pummeling dragon style. Be what the monk was meant to be!


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Pummeling dragon style. Be what the monk was meant to be!

The it's impossibly cool. I admit.

I meant swapping from dragon after the charge. Although that may not help.

Dark Archive

It's mostly from your whopping 3 bonus style feats as a Sacred Fist, because you'll have all the ones that matter by level 5. I honestly don't know which ones have any real value, because Pummeling is pretty much required at all times, and Dragon's Str bonus is huge.


Why don't weuse Horn of the Criosphinx and Janny Rush instead of dragon style?Wouldn't be better?


It would not be better. Damage dice are lack luster you more strength is awesome.

Also. I went with Sohei with mine so that I could pick up crusader's flurry with the longbow turning my Warpriest into a pretty decent switch hitter.

Dark Archive

Does Sohei give Longbow proficiency? Because yeah, that'd be a pretty legit option.


It doesn't. You are at -4 to hit with the longbow


Sohei are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as light armor.


Kudaku wrote:
Sohei are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as light armor.

Ah my bad thought he was trying to get it for deities favored weapon. That's super cool.

Actually incredibly powerful.


Chaotic Fighter wrote:

It would not be better. Damage dice are lack luster you more strength is awesome.

Also. I went with Sohei with mine so that I could pick up crusader's flurry with the longbow turning my Warpriest into a pretty decent switch hitter.

I don't get it...Dragon style+dragon ferocity = STR bonus x2

Horn of the criosphinx=STR bonus x2

Isn't horn of the criosphinx better? 1 feat vs 2?
Furthermore doesn't Dragon Style states this?:

you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike

Can you add the 1-1/2 STR bonus on every atk of the pummeling flurry?

Dark Archive

Yeah, a Erastilian (is this the word?) Sohei with Crusader's Flurry could Flurry of Blows with their Longbow, which makes for an awesome switch-hitter. A good catch, Chaotic.

Scarab Sages

Or a Sohei could just take weapon training in bows at 6, and save the feat and the cleric dip to qualify for it.


First, awesome work! This might be the most workable/respectable monk build that I've seen yet.

Having said that... is anyone else seeing a jawbreakingly hard nerf in the wings for the Pummeling feats? They solve a LOT of problems for the monk, including getting magic weapon bonuses on an unarmed strike. Frankly, they're too good to be true. I figure it's less a question of "will this be smashed to the ground by errata?" and more "will I have enough time to play this build before the feat is smashed to the ground by errata?"

Silver Crusade

I don't think they are particularly broken in regards to unarmed strikes. They become broken when people try to start using them with nodachi and greatswords.


Imbicatus wrote:

Or a Sohei could just take weapon training in bows at 6, and save the feat and the cleric dip to qualify for it.

Well the point was to be Warpriest not a Sohei. The Sohei just got tacked on because I was dipping MoMS anyway. Also. Warpriest gets channel energy so there's no need to dip cleric.


Stregi wrote:
Chaotic Fighter wrote:

It would not be better. Damage dice are lack luster you more strength is awesome.

Also. I went with Sohei with mine so that I could pick up crusader's flurry with the longbow turning my Warpriest into a pretty decent switch hitter.

I don't get it...Dragon style+dragon ferocity = STR bonus x2

Horn of the criosphinx=STR bonus x2

Isn't horn of the criosphinx better? 1 feat vs 2?
Furthermore doesn't Dragon Style states this?:

you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike

Can you add the 1-1/2 STR bonus on every atk of the pummeling flurry?

Dragon Style allows you to add 1-1/2 strength on your first unarmed attack in a round instead of just your strength.

Dragon Ferocity grants an untyped damage bonus equal to half your strength mod to ALL of your unarmed strikes.

And as far as I can tell horn of the criosphinx stacks because it's another untyped damage bonus.


Chaotic Fighter wrote:
Stregi wrote:
Chaotic Fighter wrote:

It would not be better. Damage dice are lack luster you more strength is awesome.

Also. I went with Sohei with mine so that I could pick up crusader's flurry with the longbow turning my Warpriest into a pretty decent switch hitter.

I don't get it...Dragon style+dragon ferocity = STR bonus x2

Horn of the criosphinx=STR bonus x2

Isn't horn of the criosphinx better? 1 feat vs 2?
Furthermore doesn't Dragon Style states this?:

you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike

Can you add the 1-1/2 STR bonus on every atk of the pummeling flurry?

Dragon Style allows you to add 1-1/2 strength on your first unarmed attack in a round instead of just your strength.

Dragon Ferocity grants an untyped damage bonus equal to half your strength mod to ALL of your unarmed strikes.

And as far as I can tell horn of the criosphinx stacks because it's another untyped damage bonus.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, I never thought you could use them both...so let me see....Let's suppose i have a +4 Str bonus, 2 atks and I'm charging:

-the first atk damage will be:6(dragon style)+2(dragon ferocity)+8(horn of C.)[no...the 6 from dragon style probably won't stack isn't it?]
- the second attack :2(dragon ferocity)+8(horn of C)
Am I correct? Is this what u meant?


They do not stack. They override.


Yes that's what I meant. And I see no reason they would override.

Silver Crusade

Stregi wrote:
Chaotic Fighter wrote:
Stregi wrote:
Chaotic Fighter wrote:

It would not be better. Damage dice are lack luster you more strength is awesome.

Also. I went with Sohei with mine so that I could pick up crusader's flurry with the longbow turning my Warpriest into a pretty decent switch hitter.

I don't get it...Dragon style+dragon ferocity = STR bonus x2

Horn of the criosphinx=STR bonus x2

Isn't horn of the criosphinx better? 1 feat vs 2?
Furthermore doesn't Dragon Style states this?:

you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike

Can you add the 1-1/2 STR bonus on every atk of the pummeling flurry?

Dragon Style allows you to add 1-1/2 strength on your first unarmed attack in a round instead of just your strength.

Dragon Ferocity grants an untyped damage bonus equal to half your strength mod to ALL of your unarmed strikes.

And as far as I can tell horn of the criosphinx stacks because it's another untyped damage bonus.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, I never thought you could use them both...so let me see....Let's suppose i have a +4 Str bonus, 2 atks and I'm charging:

-the first atk damage will be:6(dragon style)+2(dragon ferocity)+8(horn of C.)
- the second attack :2(dragon ferocity)+8(horn of C)
Am I correct? Is this what u meant?

All unarmed strikes get 1.0x Str bonus. And I don't think HotC is meant to stack with the others, but supplant it. I think it's just bad editing. So I think if you have HotC, the Dragon style line is useless. Otherwise with Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, and HotC, you'd get 4x Str mod on your first attack after a charge.


I think that the Dragon style won't stacks with Horn of C.

But I'm pretty sure that Horn of C. will stacks with dragon ferocity for 2.5x str bonus damage for each hit XDDDD I love you chaotic !!!!


Stregi wrote:

I think that the Dragon style won't stacks with Horn of C.

But I'm pretty sure that Horn of C. will stacks with dragon ferocity for 2.5x str bonus damage for each hit XDDDD I love you chaotic !!!!

Upon rechecking yeah. You're right it is instead of the normal strength bonus. So yes. Dragon Style doesn't work in this combo.

Dragon Ferocity does.

Also Dragon style is a good way to shore up damage when you're not charging so it's still a decent feat to have. Plus Dragon Style is what let's you charge through difficult terrain and allies. So it's plenty beneficial to have HotC and Dragon Style.


Freaking sweet; I've always wanted to find a way to make Master of Many Styles function, but it was just too weak on its own. I think 1 level dip of Sacred Fist Wapriest and the rest Master of Many Styles would be fun.

Janni Rush looks like its not worthless when combined with Pummeling Charge. Just read that Horn of the Criosphinx everyone's talking about. Yowza, that looks like strong stuff, if I'm reading that correctly.

So...

Warpriest Sacred Fist 1 - Pummeling Style
Warpriest 1/MoMS 1 - Pummeling Charge
Warpriest 1/MoMS 2 - Janni Style/Janni Rush

...and then find a few more combat styles to throw in there. 3 Styles? 4 Styles? Too bad you can never reach the capstone, but I suppose it was never that good to begin with. (With Combat Style Master, it's hard to imagine more than 4 styles running at once would accomplish anything.)

...and finally! That monk fast movement will work well with flurry of blows!


BigNorseWolf wrote:
They do not stack. They override.

Never mind you were right. I misremembered the exact wording.


The Chort wrote:

Freaking sweet; I've always wanted to find a way to make Master of Many Styles function, but it was just too weak on its own. I think 1 level dip of Sacred Fist Wapriest and the rest Master of Many Styles would be fun.

Janni Rush looks like its not worthless when combined with Pummeling Charge. Just read that Horn of the Criosphinx everyone's talking about. Yowza, that looks like strong stuff, if I'm reading that correctly.

So...

Warpriest Sacred Fist 1 - Pummeling Style
Warpriest 1/MoMS 1 - Pummeling Charge
Warpriest 1/MoMS 2 - Janni Style/Janni Rush

...and then find a few more combat styles to throw in there. 3 Styles? 4 Styles? Too bad you can never reach the capstone, but I suppose it was never that good to begin with. (With Combat Style Master, it's hard to imagine more than 4 styles running at once would accomplish anything.)

Pummeling Charge is the capstone in this build and it's plenty worth it. And yes Janni style is still plenty useful but Dragon style makes charging easier because you can ignore terrain and allies. But then again I've made a Janni style using pouncing barbarian and doing a flying flurry of kicks is always a fun image.

Dark Archive

So the long and short of it is that Dragon Ferocity (+.5x Str to all unarmed attacks) and Horn of the Crosphinx (double your Str bonus on all 2h attacks, or unarmed attacks with empty hands on a monk, when charging) work perfectly fine together.

So if you've got 18 Str, you'd get +8 damage on a charge from HotC, and +2 damage from Dragon Ferocity, for a total of +10 damage from Strength for each hit you make in a Pummeling Charge attack. And that's before buffs, enhancement bonuses and all that. Delicious.

This still means Dragon Style + Dragon Ferocity would be worth using, even after the charge, because HotC doesn't work on those attacks.


Yeah the most you can go without your flurry suffering is 4 levels of MoMS.


I just realized something indescribably depressing. My 1 level dip build wouldn't get PA till 7th level after some revisions.

SF 1: Pummeling style
SF 2:
MoMS/Iron Mountain 1: Dragon style, B: Pummeling charge.
SF 3:
SF 4: Dragon Ferocity
SF 5:
SF 6: Power attack B:?

I suppose MOMS 2 would change this to PA at 5th.


Undone wrote:

I just realized something indescribably depressing. My 1 level dip build wouldn't get PA till 7th level after some revisions.

SF 1: Pummeling style
SF 2:
MoMS/Iron Mountain 1: Dragon style, B: Pummeling charge.
SF 3:
SF 4: Dragon Ferocity
SF 5:
SF 6: Power attack B:?

I suppose MOMS 2 would change this to PA at 5th.

I would pick Horn of the Criosphinx before Power Attack anyway. The trick with this whole build is deciding when to take the 2nd level of MoMS. Look closely at SF with all its interesting class abilities and spell slots by level before deciding when to take that 2nd level of MoMS.


Yeah it's best to go Dragon and Horn first because it's a decent damage boost without the attack penalty


Ok, the build seems solid....what about the blessings? I was thinking about Destruction and an elemental one(so we'll qualify for the Energy Channel feat) what you think about it?


Just noticed people are talking about stacking MoMS and Sohei and at least in PFS that will not fly...

Silver Crusade

They're talking about stacking Sacred Fist warpriest with either Sohei or MoMS.


Alex Mack wrote:
Just noticed people are talking about stacking MoMS and Sohei and at least in PFS that will not fly...

Why won't that fly? I thought both Archetypes are PFS legal and none of their class abilities overlap.


Explain yourself Alex.


I have no idea what alex is talking about. Both are legal and it's raw so it will be legal for a while.

Stregi wrote:
Ok, the build seems solid....what about the blessings? I was thinking about Destruction and an elemental one(so we'll qualify for the Energy Channel feat) what you think about it?

I like the no duration luck blessing as it helps saves and the high blessing is awesome.

Good is also great, destruction is ok, artifice is really good for season 6 as is chaos, I think also that the nobility, and war blessings are good.


Undone wrote:

I like the no duration luck blessing as it helps saves and the high blessing is awesome.

Good is also great, destruction is ok, artifice is really good for season 6 as is chaos, I think also that the nobility, and war blessings are good.

I think you are spot on with your assessment of the blessings. I'm strongly tempted to go Luck as well as Good.

Artifice is tempting to me because of season 6 but I hesitate because the wording says "you can touch one melee weapon". That worries me as I don't know how that would work with your flurry of blows when you use different parts of your body as your unarmed strike. Would it mean that only one of your attacks counts for the artifice blessing each round? I just don't know.


c873788 wrote:
Undone wrote:

I like the no duration luck blessing as it helps saves and the high blessing is awesome.

Good is also great, destruction is ok, artifice is really good for season 6 as is chaos, I think also that the nobility, and war blessings are good.

I think you are spot on with your assessment of the blessings. I'm strongly tempted to go Luck as well as Good.

Artifice is tempting to me because of season 6 but I hesitate because the wording says "you can touch one melee weapon". That worries me as I don't know how that would work with your flurry of blows when you use different parts of your body as your unarmed strike. Would it mean that only one of your attacks counts for the artifice blessing each round? I just don't know.

I'd be inclined to get artifice for other people. The clustered shot portion of pummeling style means at most you lose 5-8 points of damage while others could lose as much as 16-24 pretty easily at mid levels. Even if it's your blessing it would do more on the unprepared party members.

As for good blessing I'm inclined after running 2 adventures to say it wont be good in season 6. The overwhelming majority is neutral.


c873788 wrote:
Undone wrote:

I like the no duration luck blessing as it helps saves and the high blessing is awesome.

Good is also great, destruction is ok, artifice is really good for season 6 as is chaos, I think also that the nobility, and war blessings are good.

I think you are spot on with your assessment of the blessings. I'm strongly tempted to go Luck as well as Good.

Artifice is tempting to me because of season 6 but I hesitate because the wording says "you can touch one melee weapon". That worries me as I don't know how that would work with your flurry of blows when you use different parts of your body as your unarmed strike. Would it mean that only one of your attacks counts for the artifice blessing each round? I just don't know.

Unarmed strike is one weapon. Your whole body. It's been brought up before. Magic Weapon enhances your whole body(if you're a monk) for that reason.

Silver Crusade

I just looked up Sohei and MoMS, and Alex is correct. They both either change or substitute the "Bonus Feats" and "Flurry of Blows" class features, so they are not stackable.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I just looked up Sohei and MoMS, and Alex is correct. They both either change or substitute the "Bonus Feats" and "Flurry of Blows" class features, so they are not stackable.

Ah ok. I was relying on Herolab which doesn't always build things exactly right.


What about Energy Channel feat? It's worth it?And about equip? Robe and winged boots?


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I just looked up Sohei and MoMS, and Alex is correct. They both either change or substitute the "Bonus Feats" and "Flurry of Blows" class features, so they are not stackable.

I don't think this is true;

Here are the Bonus Feat and Flurry of blow replacements for the MoMS:

Quote:

Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat... This ability replaces a monk's standard bonus feats.

Fuse Style (Ex): At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style... This ability replaces flurry of blows.

I think the Sohei replaces neither of these, but I guess you could very stringently determine that these don't stack? I don't think you have any ground to say that Flurry of Blows was replaced, but you could make the case that both change Bonus Feats.

Quote:

Bonus Feats: A sohei may select mounted combat feats as bonus feats.

Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.

It doesn't help that the Sohei doesn't use the "This ability replaces a monk's standard bonus feats." or similar language to leave no doubt.

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