paizo.com Recent Posts in Improving the Roguepaizo.com Recent Posts in Improving the Rogue2014-08-17T17:30:43Z2014-08-17T17:30:43ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueKain Darkwindhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#502014-08-26T03:34:03Z2014-08-26T03:34:03Z<p><a href="http://dicefreaks.freeforums.org/talented-rogue-talents-that-don-t-suck-t205.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">This is the thread</a> for discussion, though there isn't one on Paizo. I was really just offering it up in case it gives anyone on this thread ideas, though I'm more than happy to hear thoughts and suggestions.</p>This is the thread for discussion, though there isn't one on Paizo. I was really just offering it up in case it gives anyone on this thread ideas, though I'm more than happy to hear thoughts and suggestions.Kain Darkwind2014-08-26T03:34:03ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the Roguerainzaxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#492014-08-26T03:06:09Z2014-08-26T03:06:09Z<p>Kain Darkwind, so as not to jack Kekkres's, is there a thread of yours to discuss your modifications to the rogue talents?</p>Kain Darkwind, so as not to jack Kekkres's, is there a thread of yours to discuss your modifications to the rogue talents?rainzax2014-08-26T03:06:09ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueKain Darkwindhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#482014-10-01T21:55:14Z2014-08-25T07:06:28Z<p>I did <a href="http://dicefreaks.freeforums.org/post3364.html#p3364" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">this</a> to fix the rogue in my homegame. Feel free to mine it for whatever fixes you might want.</p>I did this to fix the rogue in my homegame. Feel free to mine it for whatever fixes you might want.Kain Darkwind2014-08-25T07:06:28ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueAelryinth (RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#472014-08-25T00:41:19Z2014-08-25T00:41:19Z<p>I'd have Sneak Attack damage automatically included on any Vital Strike, for starters, and the Rogue should have the choice of doing SA instead of crit damage when critting. The former should be part of the Vital Strike feat, the latter part of the class (although it forces the Rogue towards high crit range weapons, which annoys me...but that's a weapon problem).</p>
<p>Turn their # of Sneak Attack dice into a competence bonus for all skills at max ranks, and you have a solid skill buff good at pretty much all levels.</p>
<p>But the real thing for skills is giving them additional abilities with ranks. This would neuter Bard Versatile Knowledge...they could get a high modifier, but without investment in those skills and actual ranks, not touch the higher abilities.</p>
<p>==Aelyrinth</p>I'd have Sneak Attack damage automatically included on any Vital Strike, for starters, and the Rogue should have the choice of doing SA instead of crit damage when critting. The former should be part of the Vital Strike feat, the latter part of the class (although it forces the Rogue towards high crit range weapons, which annoys me...but that's a weapon problem).
Turn their # of Sneak Attack dice into a competence bonus for all skills at max ranks, and you have a solid skill buff good at...Aelryinth (RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16)2014-08-25T00:41:19ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueDarche Schneider (alias of Ævux)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#462014-08-24T23:41:28Z2014-08-24T23:41:28Z<p>I think the biggest problem in combat is that Rogues are not suppose to fight fair. Yet, their talents are just so scatter brained and so.. minor that they don't really get this ability. </p>
<p>It honestly wouldn't be too hard to help them with this. But the problem is that right now you got ones like Sneaky Manuver where you take a penalty to your attack roll AND sacrifice your sneak attack damage to preform a limited selection of combat maneuvers that the rogue will be taking a bit of a penalty on as well that still provokes an AoO. (Since you know, they're a 3/4 bab class, and like they would generally be more dexy)</p>
<p>If you gotta spend 4-5 feats just to be able to really use a basic talent, its not a very good basic talent.</p>I think the biggest problem in combat is that Rogues are not suppose to fight fair. Yet, their talents are just so scatter brained and so.. minor that they don't really get this ability.
It honestly wouldn't be too hard to help them with this. But the problem is that right now you got ones like Sneaky Manuver where you take a penalty to your attack roll AND sacrifice your sneak attack damage to preform a limited selection of combat maneuvers that the rogue will be taking a bit of a penalty...Darche Schneider (alias of Ævux)2014-08-24T23:41:28ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueDa'athhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#452014-08-24T20:37:10Z2014-08-24T20:37:10Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kekkres wrote:</div><blockquote>Honestly i dont think the rogue needs a great deal of help, power wise early on. Generaly the rogue doesnt have power issues untill around level 8 or so, becoming very noticable by around level 10 or 11. Plus adrinialine rush, thematicly feels more like a fighter or barbarian thing.</blockquote><p>In terms of the crunch, it's a fairly sound mechanic and not a lot of help early on. Like an inquisitors judgement, it is gradual, but scales at a slower rate. Thematically, it is a very "human" thing, be it man, woman, child, and pretty much every mammal on the planet. Fluff can be changed, "thematically," I could call it "Expertise" or "Savvy" (or any number of other things), yank fatigue, and refluff the rest of it to match.
<p>You do not seem to care for it, however, and I'm not going to push - it was a thought that I hoped would help and I'm not married to it=). Since your issue, as you say, crops up at 8th level and higher, you could consider the following, instead:</p>
<p>You could allow the rogue to select the <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/noble-scion" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Noble Scion's</a> Dilettante Studies as talents (6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th), however. It is a pretty versatile ability and compliments the rogue, in my opinion, quite nicely, allowing a rogue's chosen "niche" to be augmented based on playstyle.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">master_marshmallow wrote:</div><blockquote><p> The main issues I have seen on the rogue come from his skills not being better than a bard, and his attack rolls not having any means of increasing.
</p>
Sneak attack is also limiting, feinting is a terrible feat chain to invest into.
<br />
The Counterfeit Mage had the right idea with giving more skills better numbers, but I would still like to see more from pathfinders skills ala skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel.
<br />
As far as combat goes, a rogue talent that allows feinting as a swift action, and the ability to boost your bluff check and attack rolls by an amount equal to the number of sneak attack dice granted by your class ability would probably work.
<br />
Not unlike alchemist discoveries for poisons, I would like to see rogue talents that increase the number of different kinds of enemies that can be hit with sneak attack. </blockquote><p>I agree with everything you've said, save the bit about increasing the number of different kinds of enemies that can be hit with sneak attack. The transition from 3.5 to Pathfinder reduced the number of enemies significantly, in my opinion.
<p>As it stands, the only creature types remaining, save "special/unique" instances are elementals, incorporeal (unless using ghost touch), oozes, proteans (50% chance to ignore), and swarms. There are a lot more creature types immune to poisons than sneak attack and critical hits.</p>Kekkres wrote:Honestly i dont think the rogue needs a great deal of help, power wise early on. Generaly the rogue doesnt have power issues untill around level 8 or so, becoming very noticable by around level 10 or 11. Plus adrinialine rush, thematicly feels more like a fighter or barbarian thing.
In terms of the crunch, it's a fairly sound mechanic and not a lot of help early on. Like an inquisitors judgement, it is gradual, but scales at a slower rate. Thematically, it is a very "human"...Da'ath2014-08-24T20:37:10ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the Roguemaster_marshmallowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#442014-08-24T19:28:40Z2014-08-24T19:28:40Z<p>The main issues I have seen on the rogue come from his skills not being better than a bard, and his attack rolls not having any means of increasing.
<br />
Sneak attack is also limiting, feinting is a terrible feat chain to invest into.
<br />
The Counterfeit Mage had the right idea with giving more skills better numbers, but I would still like to see more from pathfinders skills ala skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel.
<br />
As far as combat goes, a rogue talent that allows feinting as a swift action, and the ability to boost your bluff check and attack rolls by an amount equal to the number of sneak attack dice granted by your class ability would probably work.
<br />
Not unlike alchemist discoveries for poisons, I would like to see rogue talents that increase the number of different kinds of enemies that can be hit with sneak attack.</p>The main issues I have seen on the rogue come from his skills not being better than a bard, and his attack rolls not having any means of increasing.
Sneak attack is also limiting, feinting is a terrible feat chain to invest into.
The Counterfeit Mage had the right idea with giving more skills better numbers, but I would still like to see more from pathfinders skills ala skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel.
As far as combat goes, a rogue talent that allows feinting as a swift action, and the...master_marshmallow2014-08-24T19:28:40ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueKekkreshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#432014-08-24T18:52:51Z2014-08-24T18:52:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Da'ath wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Zilfrel Findadur is just trolling (edit, it is possible he's not, but at this point I really don't care whether its ignorance, legit opinion, or malice - the result is the same, derailing of the thread).</p>
<p>Anyway, Aelryinth may have inadvertently inspired me with his comment. Thus inspired, I went about looking for a mundane means by which to correct for the to-hit bonus/damage issue I am some others are having. I came up with this, which is based in fact, but deviates significantly, of course.</p>
<p><b>Adrenaline Rush (Ex)</b>
<br />
In response to a situation the rogue deems threatening or frighting, she may trigger an adrenaline rush. Starting at 1st level, a rogue can activate an adrenaline rush as a free action. Starting when the adrenaline rush is activated, the rogue receives a bonus based on the type of response selected.</p>
<p>At 1st level, a rogue can use this ability once per day. At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the rogue can use this ability one additional time per day. Once activated, this ability lasts for 1 minute or until the combat ends, at which point all of the bonuses immediately end. The rogue must participate in the combat to gain these bonuses. If she is frightened, panicked, paralyzed, stunned, unconscious, or otherwise prevented from participating in the combat, the ability does not end, but the bonuses do not resume until she can participate in the combat again. A rogue can end her adrenaline rush as a free action and is fatigued for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in this state. A rogue cannot activate a new adrenaline rush while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise activate an adrenaline rush multiple times during a single encounter or combat.</p>
<p>When the rogue uses this ability, she must select one type of response to make. As a swift action, she can change this response to another type.
<br />
<ul>
<br />
<li><i>Fight Response</i> The rogue is filled with heightened heightened aggression and perception, gaining a +1 morale bonus on all attack</ul>... </blockquote><p>Honestly i dont think the rogue needs a great deal of help, power wise early on. Generaly the rogue doesnt have power issues untill around level 8 or so, becoming very noticable by around level 10 or 11. Plus adrinialine rush, thematicly feels more like a fighter or barbarian thing.Da'ath wrote:Zilfrel Findadur is just trolling (edit, it is possible he's not, but at this point I really don't care whether its ignorance, legit opinion, or malice - the result is the same, derailing of the thread).
Anyway, Aelryinth may have inadvertently inspired me with his comment. Thus inspired, I went about looking for a mundane means by which to correct for the to-hit bonus/damage issue I am some others are having. I came up with this, which is based in fact, but deviates...Kekkres2014-08-24T18:52:51ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueDa'athhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#422014-08-24T17:55:06Z2014-08-24T17:55:06Z<p>Zilfrel Findadur is just trolling (edit, it is possible he's not, but at this point I really don't care whether its ignorance, legit opinion, or malice - the result is the same, derailing of the thread).</p>
<p>Anyway, Aelryinth may have inadvertently inspired me with his comment. Thus inspired, I went about looking for a mundane means by which to correct for the to-hit bonus/damage issue I am some others are having. I came up with this, which is based in fact, but deviates significantly, of course.</p>
<p><b>Adrenaline Rush (Ex)</b>
<br />
In response to a situation the rogue deems threatening or frighting, she may trigger an adrenaline rush. Starting at 1st level, a rogue can activate an adrenaline rush as a free action. Starting when the adrenaline rush is activated, the rogue receives a bonus based on the type of response selected.</p>
<p>At 1st level, a rogue can use this ability once per day. At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the rogue can use this ability one additional time per day. Once activated, this ability lasts for 1 minute or until the combat ends, at which point all of the bonuses immediately end. The rogue must participate in the combat to gain these bonuses. If she is frightened, panicked, paralyzed, stunned, unconscious, or otherwise prevented from participating in the combat, the ability does not end, but the bonuses do not resume until she can participate in the combat again. A rogue can end her adrenaline rush as a free action and is fatigued for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in this state. A rogue cannot activate a new adrenaline rush while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise activate an adrenaline rush multiple times during a single encounter or combat.</p>
<p>When the rogue uses this ability, she must select one type of response to make. As a swift action, she can change this response to another type.
<br />
<ul>
<br />
<li><i>Fight Response</i> The rogue is filled with heightened heightened aggression and perception, gaining a +1 morale bonus on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and Perception skill checks. This bonus increases by +1 per four rogue levels beyond first (+2 total at 5th level, +3 at 9th, and so on).
<br />
<li><i>Flight Response</i> The rogue's agility and speed are heightened, granting an additional 5 feet to speed, +5 feet to speed per four rogue levels. In addition, a rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC, +1 dodge bonus to AC per four rogue levels.
<br />
<li><i>Fawn Response</i> The rogue's survival instincts cause her to freeze up as a response. During the first round of combat, if the rogue has not acted yet, she may use the fawn response, granting her the ability to use feint as a free action against a single target with a +1 morale bonus on her Bluff check, +1 per four rogue levels.</ul></p>
<p>Thoughts, refinements, etc? It is a rough draft, as I completed the idea in less than 10 minutes, but I think it <i>might</i> be a valid solution.</p>
<p><b>Edit:</b> It has elements of rage & judgement, of course.</p>Zilfrel Findadur is just trolling (edit, it is possible he's not, but at this point I really don't care whether its ignorance, legit opinion, or malice - the result is the same, derailing of the thread).
Anyway, Aelryinth may have inadvertently inspired me with his comment. Thus inspired, I went about looking for a mundane means by which to correct for the to-hit bonus/damage issue I am some others are having. I came up with this, which is based in fact, but deviates significantly, of
...Da'ath2014-08-24T17:55:06ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueCiaran Barneshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#412014-08-24T17:38:52Z2014-08-24T17:38:52Z<p>Depends on who you ask. However, its kind of late to that. Rogue threads in the homebrew forum are quite different that those in other forums, in case you haven't noticed.</p>Depends on who you ask. However, its kind of late to that. Rogue threads in the homebrew forum are quite different that those in other forums, in case you haven't noticed.Ciaran Barnes2014-08-24T17:38:52ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueZilfrel Findadur (alias of Madpianist)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#402014-08-24T15:17:10Z2014-08-24T15:17:10Z<p>The Rogue doesn't need to be buffed, the class is good as it is.</p>The Rogue doesn't need to be buffed, the class is good as it is.Zilfrel Findadur (alias of Madpianist)2014-08-24T15:17:10ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueAelryinth (RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#392014-08-24T10:39:27Z2014-08-24T10:39:27Z<p>Da'ath is right. You only get the bonus with one weapon at a time (or maybe two weapons if you are TWF) which 1) gets the rogue his signature weapon! and 2) prevents it from being overpowered by applying it to everything under the sun.</p>
<p>Bard, Inq and cleric buffs are sorta balanced by the fact there's a limited number of rounds they can be used. If you're going to make it a flat bonus, it's going to need a restriction or two...and you certainly don't want it applying to a whole weapon group, as that's really stealing from the Fighter.</p>
<p>==Aelryinth</p>Da'ath is right. You only get the bonus with one weapon at a time (or maybe two weapons if you are TWF) which 1) gets the rogue his signature weapon! and 2) prevents it from being overpowered by applying it to everything under the sun.
Bard, Inq and cleric buffs are sorta balanced by the fact there's a limited number of rounds they can be used. If you're going to make it a flat bonus, it's going to need a restriction or two...and you certainly don't want it applying to a whole weapon group,...Aelryinth (RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16)2014-08-24T10:39:27ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueKekkreshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#382014-08-24T04:40:06Z2014-08-24T04:40:06Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Da'ath wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Kekkres wrote:</div><blockquote>that seems like a bad idea imo, It prevents them from ever changing not only their weapon type, but their spacific weapon which at any point other than the very endgame is a huuuuge drawback. </blockquote><p>I believe what Aelryinth suggests assumes knowledge of a 3.0/3.5 mechanic you may or may not be familiar with. In essence, you had a favored weapon as he mentions above, but if it was lost, destroyed, and so on, you could do a ritual or an amount of time passes and select a new. I think it was either a class feature in complete warrior or a feat chain somewhere else.
<p>Please correct me if I'm wrong, Aelryinth. </blockquote><p>Yes like the druids animal companion, however in such cases, to my knowlage, you arent allowed to just change out because you got a better thing. Which is the problem, unless its simple to change favored weapons, you are restricting the rogue from upgrading, if its simple, the restriction is pointless, and only serves to nerf dual weilding.Da'ath wrote:Kekkres wrote:that seems like a bad idea imo, It prevents them from ever changing not only their weapon type, but their spacific weapon which at any point other than the very endgame is a huuuuge drawback.
I believe what Aelryinth suggests assumes knowledge of a 3.0/3.5 mechanic you may or may not be familiar with. In essence, you had a favored weapon as he mentions above, but if it was lost, destroyed, and so on, you could do a ritual or an amount of time passes and select a...Kekkres2014-08-24T04:40:06ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueDa'athhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#372014-08-24T03:26:12Z2014-08-24T03:26:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kekkres wrote:</div><blockquote>that seems like a bad idea imo, It prevents them from ever changing not only their weapon type, but their spacific weapon which at any point other than the very endgame is a huuuuge drawback. </blockquote><p>I believe what Aelryinth suggests assumes knowledge of a 3.0/3.5 mechanic you may or may not be familiar with. In essence, you had a favored weapon as he mentions above, but if it was lost, destroyed, and so on, you could do a ritual or an amount of time passes and select a new. I think it was either a class feature in complete warrior or a feat chain somewhere else.
<p>Please correct me if I'm wrong, Aelryinth.</p>Kekkres wrote:that seems like a bad idea imo, It prevents them from ever changing not only their weapon type, but their spacific weapon which at any point other than the very endgame is a huuuuge drawback.
I believe what Aelryinth suggests assumes knowledge of a 3.0/3.5 mechanic you may or may not be familiar with. In essence, you had a favored weapon as he mentions above, but if it was lost, destroyed, and so on, you could do a ritual or an amount of time passes and select a new. I think it...Da'ath2014-08-24T03:26:12ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueKekkreshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#362014-08-24T03:10:35Z2014-08-24T03:10:35Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Aelryinth wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Allow the Rogue to name a particular weapon (this rapier, vs all rapiers) as a Favored Weapon when taking Weapon Focus. With that weapon, he is considered to have Weapon Training as a Fighter of equal level.</p>
<p>Ta da. Gives the same TH/Dmg bonuses an inquisitor, cleric or bard gets as they level.</p>
<p>Using Dark Knowledge and tying that into the Rogue, while giving him access to all knowledge skills, would also be a great use of tons of skill points.</p>
<p>==Aelryinth </blockquote><p>that seems like a bad idea imo, It prevents them from ever changing not only their weapon type, but their spacific weapon which at any point other than the very endgame is a huuuuge drawback.Aelryinth wrote:Allow the Rogue to name a particular weapon (this rapier, vs all rapiers) as a Favored Weapon when taking Weapon Focus. With that weapon, he is considered to have Weapon Training as a Fighter of equal level.
Ta da. Gives the same TH/Dmg bonuses an inquisitor, cleric or bard gets as they level.
Using Dark Knowledge and tying that into the Rogue, while giving him access to all knowledge skills, would also be a great use of tons of skill points.
==Aelryinth
that seems like a...Kekkres2014-08-24T03:10:35ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueValianhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#352014-08-24T02:54:06Z2014-08-24T02:54:06Z<p>Take a look at <a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2raas&page=last?Fixing-multiple-attacks-for-fighter-barbarian" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">this thread</a> too, there is a link to an <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ckGJjbz0Q1MO5IvZUXm8zAKWlUMFbNCK_qn3CnnKHFM/edit?usp=sharing" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">ONLINE DOCUMENT</a> with a rogue class and many different skill tricks. Your feedback is appreciated. Cheers.</p>Take a look at this thread too, there is a link to an ONLINE DOCUMENT with a rogue class and many different skill tricks. Your feedback is appreciated. Cheers.Valian2014-08-24T02:54:06ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueAelryinth (RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#342014-08-24T00:54:19Z2014-08-24T00:54:19Z<p>Allow the Rogue to name a particular weapon (this rapier, vs all rapiers) as a Favored Weapon when taking Weapon Focus. With that weapon, he is considered to have Weapon Training as a Fighter of equal level.</p>
<p>Ta da. Gives the same TH/Dmg bonuses an inquisitor, cleric or bard gets as they level.</p>
<p>Using Dark Knowledge and tying that into the Rogue, while giving him access to all knowledge skills, would also be a great use of tons of skill points.</p>
<p>==Aelryinth</p>Allow the Rogue to name a particular weapon (this rapier, vs all rapiers) as a Favored Weapon when taking Weapon Focus. With that weapon, he is considered to have Weapon Training as a Fighter of equal level.
Ta da. Gives the same TH/Dmg bonuses an inquisitor, cleric or bard gets as they level.
Using Dark Knowledge and tying that into the Rogue, while giving him access to all knowledge skills, would also be a great use of tons of skill points.
==AelryinthAelryinth (RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16)2014-08-24T00:54:19ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueDa'athhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#332014-08-23T17:52:53Z2014-08-23T17:52:53Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kekkres wrote:</div><blockquote>Yes this is something im still concerned about, im considering giving it a +3 to hit when sneaking at some point, which should, in theory, even the gap when combined with the +2 to flanking or the lack of dex. Imo the rouge SHOULDN'T be remarkably effective when out in the open without help, they arent fighters after all.</blockquote><p>Agreed. That is one of the primary reasons I'm very much against granting full BAB to rogues. The problem, as far as I can tell, didn't crop up for our group in 3.0-3.5, but in Pathfinder. With the addition of "Weapon Training" for fighters (i.e. an additional +4 to hit), they spread the standard 5 point gap to 9 and seem to have balanced ACs around the fighter's to-hit bonus and not around the "median," i.e. rogue. Some means of granting rogues a +4 bonus over 20 levels would bridge the gap, <i>in my opinion</i> without granting them full BAB and an additional attack.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kekkres wrote:</div><blockquote>Versitile preformance is problematic ill give you that. But im Not entirely keen on removing it.</blockquote><p>We've been going a little retro of late, in the form of some rules which include returning some of the previous bard rules abilities and adding new versions, as well. I've been attempting to rework the <a href="http://dndtools.eu/classes/archivist/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><b>Dark Knowlede class feature of the Archivist</b></a> to replace Versatile Performance. It is a very worthwhile ability, in my opinion, and removes a single class feature that was poorly designed from the get-go - again, in my opinion.Kekkres wrote:Yes this is something im still concerned about, im considering giving it a +3 to hit when sneaking at some point, which should, in theory, even the gap when combined with the +2 to flanking or the lack of dex. Imo the rouge SHOULDN'T be remarkably effective when out in the open without help, they arent fighters after all.
Agreed. That is one of the primary reasons I'm very much against granting full BAB to rogues. The problem, as far as I can tell, didn't crop up for our group...Da'ath2014-08-23T17:52:53ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueDa'athhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#322014-08-23T17:37:38Z2014-08-23T17:37:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">drbuzzard wrote:</div><blockquote>Odd accusation there. <b>In the past</b> I was plenty active in threads on how to fix the rogue. I've even started ones with my suggestions.</blockquote><p>Emphasis mine. Your statement was in no way, shape, or form helpful in accomplishing what the OP seeks to accomplish, i.e. improving the rogue.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">drbuzzard wrote:</div><blockquote><p>That's nowhere close to saying 'go play another game'. At most it is 'go play a different class' but since we're already rebuilding a class from the ground up, that's what is being done.
</p>
Yes, you give up 2 skill points being a slayer vs. rogue. If that is the cost of being actually combat effective I'll happily take it.</blockquote><p>It is called hyperbole.
<p>I called you on something, you disagree. If you'd like to discuss it further, we can do so via PM and not derail the thread further; I won't respond to anything further outside of a PM that is not working toward the OPs goal.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">drbuzzard wrote:</div><blockquote><p>My way of seeing the rogue deficiencies are pretty simple:</p>
<p>A) Their saves suck - reflex is the least likely save to end your character, yes it can happen, but will and fortitude are much more dangerous effects usually.
<br />
B) Their ability to deal damage sucks. 3/4 BAB and no to hit boosting abilities means you hit like a kitten on quaaludes. Sneak attack looks much nicer on paper than when the rubber meets the road, and even if you grant it to a rogue all the time in DPR calculations, they really don't keep up against level appropriate threats.
<br />
C) Plethora of crap options in rogue talents</p>
<p>Slayer addresses all of these.
<br />
A) Adding a good fortitude save solves the save issue.
<br />
B2) Full BAB and studied target put you back in the running damage wise, and throwing in Ranger fighting styles is very nice.
<br />
C2) Because you have both rogue talents to choose from as well as ranger combat styles, and terrain bonuses, you actually have more good choices than you can take. </p>
<p>Yes, you give up 2 skill points being a slayer vs. rogue. If that is the cost of being actually combat effective I'll happily take it.</blockquote><p>Back on topic. For the most part, I agree with the deficiencies in rogue, as you present them. None of which are terribly difficult to correct (provided one doesn't commit to the folly of attempting to balance mundane vs magic).
<p>I agree with A1 and C1. I partially agree with B1.</p>
<p>A1 & 2. Agreed, though I'd prefer to see Will as their additional Good save.
<br />
B1 & B2. While I like their BAB at 3/4, I do agree the lack of to-hit bonuses is a major problem for rogues that wish to be combat effective - their chance to hit falls severely post level 10. I feel making rogues a sort of critical strike specialist would be a more effective means by which to place them in a niche of their own.
<br />
C1 & 2. I see no reason allow them to use ranger combat styles and terrain bonuses. A new, unique mechanic which provides reasonable to hit and crit modifiers would be better, in my opinion. Paizo's habit of cherry picking from other classes and spreading these abilities to everyone and their brother is a major factor in why many consider the rogue obsolete.</p>drbuzzard wrote:Odd accusation there. In the past I was plenty active in threads on how to fix the rogue. I've even started ones with my suggestions.
Emphasis mine. Your statement was in no way, shape, or form helpful in accomplishing what the OP seeks to accomplish, i.e. improving the rogue. drbuzzard wrote:That's nowhere close to saying 'go play another game'. At most it is 'go play a different class' but since we're already rebuilding a class from the ground up, that's what is being
...Da'ath2014-08-23T17:37:38ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the Roguedrbuzzardhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#312014-08-23T15:48:42Z2014-08-23T15:48:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Da'ath wrote:</div><blockquote> That's not a terribly helpful thing to say; it's akin to saying if you don't like (x), you should go play another game.</blockquote><p>Odd accusation there. In the past I was plenty active in threads on how to fix the rogue. I've even started ones with my suggestions. However I just find that the slayer class gives you most everything you might want as a rogue, but gets rid of the deficiencies. If the rules include a solution so I don't have to cook up houserules, why bother with the houserules?
<p>How about we just ignore the rogue as written, call the slayer a rogue, and be done with it? </p>
<p>That's nowhere close to saying 'go play another game'. At most it is 'go play a different class' but since we're already rebuilding a class from the ground up, that's what is being done. </p>
<p>My way of seeing the rogue deficiencies are pretty simple:</p>
<p>A) Their saves suck - reflex is the least likely save to end your character, yes it can happen, but will and fortitude are much more dangerous effects usually.
<br />
B) Their ability to deal damage sucks. 3/4 BAB and no to hit boosting abilities means you hit like a kitten on quaaludes. Sneak attack looks much nicer on paper than when the rubber meets the road, and even if you grant it to a rogue all the time in DPR calculations, they really don't keep up against level appropriate threats.
<br />
C) Plethora of crap options in rogue talents</p>
<p>Slayer addresses all of these.
<br />
A) Adding a good fortitude save solves the save issue.
<br />
B) Full BAB and studied target put you back in the running damage wise, and throwing in Ranger fighting styles is very nice.
<br />
C) Because you have both rogue talents to choose from as well as ranger combat styles, and terrain bonuses, you actually have more good choices than you can take. </p>
<p>Yes, you give up 2 skill points being a slayer vs. rogue. If that is the cost of being actually combat effective I'll happily take it.</p>Da'ath wrote:That's not a terribly helpful thing to say; it's akin to saying if you don't like (x), you should go play another game.
Odd accusation there. In the past I was plenty active in threads on how to fix the rogue. I've even started ones with my suggestions. However I just find that the slayer class gives you most everything you might want as a rogue, but gets rid of the deficiencies. If the rules include a solution so I don't have to cook up houserules, why bother with the...drbuzzard2014-08-23T15:48:42ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueKekkreshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#302014-08-23T15:45:32Z2014-08-23T15:45:32Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Da'ath wrote:</div><blockquote> The real problem I ran into with rogues (talents aside) is they're able to hit things with reasonable accuracy till around... </blockquote><p>Yes this is something im still concerned about, im considering giving it a +3 to hit when sneaking at some point, which should, in theory, even the gap when combined with the +2 to flanking or the lack of dex. Imo the rouge SHOULDN'T be remarkably effective when out in the open without help, they arent fighters after all.
<p>as to some of your other points I dropped the extra skill points when i saw that, yes, they where basicly pointless.</p>
<p>Versitile preformance is problematic ill give you that. But im Not entirely keen on removing it.</p>Da'ath wrote:The real problem I ran into with rogues (talents aside) is they're able to hit things with reasonable accuracy till around...
Yes this is something im still concerned about, im considering giving it a +3 to hit when sneaking at some point, which should, in theory, even the gap when combined with the +2 to flanking or the lack of dex. Imo the rouge SHOULDN'T be remarkably effective when out in the open without help, they arent fighters after all. as to some of your other points I...Kekkres2014-08-23T15:45:32ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueKekkreshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#292014-08-23T15:32:19Z2014-08-23T15:32:19Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Aelryinth wrote:</div><blockquote><p> A rogue's alignment might indicate what kind of bonus he'd receive.</p>
<p>A Chaotic rogue should be a firm believer in and user of luck.
<br />
A Lawful rogue would by extremely analytical and probably use insight bonuses.
<br />
A Neutral rogue would disdain both extremes and rely on pure competence.</p>
<p>The Rogue is an iconic dex character, and building him to that paradigm should be a goal, exactly the way that building a barbarian towards a strength character should be a goal.</p>
<p>If you want to, you can always build in another direction. but like making a finesse rogue, making a Str rogue should require a feat or Talent. The rogue is about skill, and bashing someone over the head with brute strength isn't about skill.</p>
<p>As for magic replacing many skills...I firmly believe that their should be more anti-caster traps and stuff in the world. Nobody in their right mind with access to spellcasting would make it easy for enemy casters to infiltrate, and should have protections against them the same way they would against mundane enemies. Anti-flying, alarms that activate when spells are cast, anti-teleport, anti-divinatory...there should be alarms against casters as much or more prevelant then non-casters, for PRECISELY the reasons you are giving above, that 'magic replaces skills.'</p>
<p>==Aelryinth </blockquote><p>im personaly not a fan of alignment based abilities, so i would prefer to leave the mechanical distinction between lawful neutral and chaotic rogues to talents at most. as for Dex vs Str builds i dont think any feat should be needed for building a thuggish burly rogue, the fact that the rogue mechanicly uses dex heavily is enough of a penalty to punish dumping it.Aelryinth wrote:A rogue's alignment might indicate what kind of bonus he'd receive.
A Chaotic rogue should be a firm believer in and user of luck.
A Lawful rogue would by extremely analytical and probably use insight bonuses.
A Neutral rogue would disdain both extremes and rely on pure competence.
The Rogue is an iconic dex character, and building him to that paradigm should be a goal, exactly the way that building a barbarian towards a strength character should be a goal.
If you want to,...Kekkres2014-08-23T15:32:19ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueDa'athhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#282014-08-23T15:28:38Z2014-08-23T15:28:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kekkres wrote:</div><blockquote> Just a few ideas to help the rogue <b>do what Paizo seems to want it to do</b>,</blockquote><p>Emphasis mine. I wouldn't base any adjustments on what Paizo wants something to do. Paizo doesn't seem to want the rogue to do anything, but stagnate until they can release some sort of band-aid fix in their next new $40 book (if they fix anything at all).
<p>A minor nitpick, I know.=)</p>
<p>Anyway, I don't really have any opinion on your changes, though I will state I don't see much of a point in giving the rogue even more skill points for reasons mentioned by several posters above.</p>
<p>I made a few changes to my game that has improved rogue a bit, however - some of which were borrowed from Cieran and Lemmy (among others). The major changes made, however, are as follows - some of which don't directly address the class itself (and have the side effect of helping melee as a whole):</p>
<p>1. As part of a full attack, melee may move up to their speed before making their attacks (and why not? Spellcasters may use move actions while casting many of their game-breakers).
<br />
2. Weapon Finesse is a weapon trait and not a feat (it should have been from day 1).
<br />
3. Agile Maneuvers is not a feat, but a choice to use Strength or Dexterity for CM(x) (again, should have been from day 1).
<br />
4. Rogues gain darkstalker (3.5) feat provided they're trained in Stealth; granted shadowstrike as a talent.
<br />
5. Rogues may add their Intelligence to damage in place of Strength.
<br />
6. Added a "clustered shots" effects to Improved Two-Weapon Fighting; reduced all Dex requirements for the feat chain by -2.
<br />
6. Removed Versatile Perfomance from bards and replaced it with something of similar value.
<br />
7. Reworded a small number of spells which were very problematic.
<br />
8. Slowly. S.L.O.W.L.Y. working on making skills more valuable/useful/applicable.
<br />
9. Quit adding new Paizo content, outside of bestiary materials, to our games.</p>
<p>The real problem I ran into with rogues (talents aside) is they're able to hit things with reasonable accuracy till around 10th level, then the game changes drastically. A fighter's to hit % remains relatively the same throughout their career (it spikes briefly around 10th, then normalizes), while the rogue's drops suddenly to about half of the fighters. Free weapon finesse improves this somewhat, but the problem still exists. I've considered adding either a form of "Rogue Training" that increases their to hit with weapons classified as "rogue weapons".</p>
<p>Many of your issues with the class seem to be a bit different, however. If I think of anything, I'll point it out. Best of luck!</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">drbuzzard wrote:</div><blockquote> I'm rather of a mind that the Slayer really solves most rogue concerns I've had. I'd just play one of those. </blockquote><p>That's not a terribly helpful thing to say; it's akin to saying if you don't like (x), you should go play another game.Kekkres wrote:Just a few ideas to help the rogue do what Paizo seems to want it to do,
Emphasis mine. I wouldn't base any adjustments on what Paizo wants something to do. Paizo doesn't seem to want the rogue to do anything, but stagnate until they can release some sort of band-aid fix in their next new $40 book (if they fix anything at all). A minor nitpick, I know.=)
Anyway, I don't really have any opinion on your changes, though I will state I don't see much of a point in giving the rogue...Da'ath2014-08-23T15:28:38ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the Roguedrbuzzardhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#272014-08-23T15:19:12Z2014-08-23T15:19:12Z<p>I'm rather of a mind that the Slayer really solves most rogue concerns I've had. I'd just play one of those.</p>I'm rather of a mind that the Slayer really solves most rogue concerns I've had. I'd just play one of those.drbuzzard2014-08-23T15:19:12ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Improving the RogueAelryinth (RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdyz?Improving-the-Rogue#262014-08-23T15:12:08Z2014-08-23T15:12:08Z<p>A rogue's alignment might indicate what kind of bonus he'd receive.</p>
<p>A Chaotic rogue should be a firm believer in and user of luck.
<br />
A Lawful rogue would by extremely analytical and probably use insight bonuses.
<br />
A Neutral rogue would disdain both extremes and rely on pure competence.</p>
<p>The Rogue is an iconic dex character, and building him to that paradigm should be a goal, exactly the way that building a barbarian towards a strength character should be a goal.</p>
<p>If you want to, you can always build in another direction. but like making a finesse rogue, making a Str rogue should require a feat or Talent. The rogue is about skill, and bashing someone over the head with brute strength isn't about skill.</p>
<p>As for magic replacing many skills...I firmly believe that their should be more anti-caster traps and stuff in the world. Nobody in their right mind with access to spellcasting would make it easy for enemy casters to infiltrate, and should have protections against them the same way they would against mundane enemies. Anti-flying, alarms that activate when spells are cast, anti-teleport, anti-divinatory...there should be alarms against casters as much or more prevelant then non-casters, for PRECISELY the reasons you are giving above, that 'magic replaces skills.'</p>
<p>==Aelryinth</p>A rogue's alignment might indicate what kind of bonus he'd receive.
A Chaotic rogue should be a firm believer in and user of luck.
A Lawful rogue would by extremely analytical and probably use insight bonuses.
A Neutral rogue would disdain both extremes and rely on pure competence.
The Rogue is an iconic dex character, and building him to that paradigm should be a goal, exactly the way that building a barbarian towards a strength character should be a goal.
If you want to, you can always...Aelryinth (RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16)2014-08-23T15:12:08Z