Rahadoum - Divine Spellcasters


Rules Questions


Rahadoum doesn't allow churches or the worship of divine entities.
With Oracles, Druids, Shamans, Hedge Witches, and White Mage Arcanists is Rahadoum really hurting for healing or divine magic?


Oracles count as empowered by the divine, so are equally reviled in Rahadoum. I dunno about nature-lovers, though.

White mages are probably fine. Before then, there were always bards to handle the healing (if less efficiently).


The iconic Oracle (Alahazra) was sent running from Rahadoum when her powers manifested on the grounds that they were divine-oriented.


Reading though her history it sounds like her father ran her off because he though she was a cleric. I wish there was more on the pure legion and what they actually do and if they are ok with oracles.
Alahazra


I've never understood why Druids are considered Divine, just make a third type of magic called Natural, I say. Ditto for Shamans.

Witches are weird. Weird enough that Pure Legion would probably say something if not arrest you. Patrons are pretty ambiguous, though, and their magic is technically arcane though, so I dunno.

Side Note: Pure Legion Enforcer Prestige Class is cool for NPCs.


Splendor wrote:
With Oracles, Druids, Shamans, Hedge Witches, and White Mage Arcanists is Rahadoum really hurting for healing or divine magic?

Probably. Just 'cause your healing magic comes from nature, your blood, music, the Force or what have you, doesn't mean your neighbours will trust you or that you won't fall victim to a pogrom.


Splendor wrote:

Reading though her history it sounds like her father ran her off because he though she was a cleric. I wish there was more on the pure legion and what they actually do and if they are ok with oracles.

Alahazra

I think there are plenty of hints that it's not just her father over-reacting. The bards seem to think that it's a big deal that the flames she produces are not arcane magic (if they were okay with druids that wouldn't be as important, also according to the campaign setting famine and plagues are among the bigger problems of Rahadoum and nature worship is a religion too.) And he actually tells her to run before the Pure Legion gets her. IMHO they are extremists who wouldn't make a difference between between any divine spellcasters.


Navarion wrote:
according to the campaign setting famine and plagues are among the bigger problems of Rahadoum

Proving once again that the only thing as stupid as religious extremism is anti-religious extremism.

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Summary of Rahadoum's approach to the divine


ZomB wrote:
Summary of Rahadoum's approach to the divine

Well, the big problem with that is, that divine magic is neither real-world religion nor high-fructose corn syrup, it's awesome. Basically in Rahadoum if a Cleric sees how a child run over by a carriage he is forbidden to cast a healing spell, even if the child is dying. If he does it anyway he'll be "fined, flogged, shamed, deported/exiled, or imprisoned for some length of time". What is more evil than punishing good deeds?


^ It's told in the introduction: The price is too high.

They see divine magic as a paladin see an evil healing spell: You give power to these entities that, if I well understood the background of Golarion, caused a huge mess.

The problem is not you try to heal the child, it's the fact you are a cleric. If there weren't any cleric, the gods wouldn't probably be here in the first place, so a lot of things wouldn't have happened.

By saving 1 child today, he could bring terrible loss in the future.

It's not evil. It's just a particular philosophy that believes using divine power in any mean isn't a good deed.


HectorVivis wrote:

^ It's told in the introduction: The price is too high.

They see divine magic as a paladin see an evil healing spell: You give power to these entities that, if I well understood the background of Golarion, caused a huge mess.

The problem is not you try to heal the child, it's the fact you are a cleric. If there weren't any cleric, the gods wouldn't probably be here in the first place, so a lot of things wouldn't have happened.

By saving 1 child today, he could bring terrible loss in the future.

It's not evil. It's just a particular philosophy that believes using divine power in any mean isn't a good deed.

From what I read about Rahadoum they expelled all faiths because the land was being torn apart by religious wars. And in Pathfinder morality isn't a matter of philosophy but absolute. It can be magically detected, used to smite foes etc. If you flog a Cleric for healing a dying child you commit an evil act, and if you do it often enough your alignment will shift towards evil. And if you die you will end up on one of the not-so-nice outer planes with devils, demons or daemons who won't give a hoot about your philosophy.


Still, their philosophy isn't evil, neither it is good I agree. They just don't want to mess up with divine magic, be it to heal or harm. It's neutral.

You would say they are evil if their purpose was to destroy divine magic and all clerics, and make their people suffer, but it's not the case.

As told in this summary on Rahadoum's approach of the divine, they don't persecute clerics because they are clerics. As soon as you don't break their law, they let you go around freely.

In Rahadoum, healing by magic is forbidden, as you can't use marijuana for medical use in some countries. You have to rely on other means, because most of the time, they exist. You don't need a healing spell, you can try to heal him (with the skill), and do your best. It takes time, it's less powerful... But it exist, and it's legal.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
HectorVivis wrote:
In Rahadoum, healing by magic is forbidden, as you can't use marijuana for medical use in some countries. You have to rely on other means, because most of the time, they exist. You don't need a healing spell, you can try to heal him (with the skill), and do your best. It takes time, it's less powerful... But it exist, and it's legal.

Given that the setting specifically calls out Bards & Alchemists as purveyors of magical healing in Rahadoum, the statement I emboldened isn't strictly accurate.


I don't think this is really appropriate for the rules section, more for the campaign setting dicussion but that's not hugely important.

I am however interested in knowing how druid's and ranger's are regarded in Rahadoum. Both fall into the "natural magic" category, which is a subset of divine spell casting. But unlike other divine casters their powers aren't necessarily a result of being granted by a deity. Though you could consider the Green Path or nature worship like worshipping a deity for a druid, a ranger needs no deity nor is it even clear where their power comes from other than being labeled as "divine".

I am very interested in knowing how these "divine" spellcasters would be handled in Rahadoum.


Irnk, you are totally right, I'll edit my post.

I'm as inclined as the others to see if there's a distinction between clerical-style classes and druids-style ones. I don't think so, but I'm curious.

Edit: Ah, can't edit my post anymore, didn't know there was a "timer".


You'd think that after all this time of Rahadoum banning everything divine, some deity would have figured out how to so an end run around the First Law by giving their priests magic that detects as Arcane. Witch (including the new Hex Channeler archetype) would be only the most obvious building block for this, although maybe too obvious -- the Pure Legion might catch on. Actually, depending upon how willing the Pure Legion was to resort to hypocrisy, they might even make such a discovery themselves to cement their power . . . and SOMETHING might even use the Pure Legion in the way described above, to advance its own purposes while the fools still think they are serving the First Law. Muaa Haaa Haaa Haaa Haaa Haaa . . . .

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DominusMegadeus wrote:
Witches are weird. Weird enough that Pure Legion would probably say something if not arrest you. Patrons are pretty ambiguous, though, and their magic is technically arcane though, so I dunno.

Particularly given that the Iconic Witch appears to get her powers directly from Desna. It may be arcane magic, but if Patrons can be gods, then the Rahadoumi should be *much* more concerned about 'arcane' casters who get their powers from deities, than 'divine' casters who may have nothing at all to do with the gods (rangers, adepts, oracles, etc.).

It's just a sign of how utterly crazy they are. They work hand in hand with people who may get their powers from gods (there are even a few gods of alchemy, and a god of arcane magic, for instance!), and yet flip out over atheist oracles or irreligious rangers, despite having no way other than the arcane sight spell to even tell if magic is arcane or divine, and yet, inexplicably, even commoners in Rahadoum being able to tell the difference using means unavailable to anyone else on Golarion...

Plus there's the whole 'plagued by drought' thing, the suggestion that they are somehow being punished by the gods for abandoning them, when you can look at the map and Rahadoum is the greenest and most fertile land on it's entire latitude, far less 'drought ridden' than Thuvia, Osirion or Qadira (all faithful lands that are less fertile and more desert). I'm sure the churches of the various gods kicked out of Rahadoum spread these exaggerations in hopes of discouraging this atheism thing from catching on, but it's just a load of baloney.

Then again, one of the churches kicked out was that of Nethys, and, perversely, arcane magic is *thriving* in Rahadoum. His *church* might be on the outs, but his actual area of concern (arcane magic) has grown to dominate in ways that it can't compete in lands that have easy access to divine magic!


I wrote:

You'd think that after all this time of Rahadoum banning everything divine, some deity would have figured out how to so an end run around the First Law by giving their priests magic that detects as Arcane.

{. . .}

Actually, if you start as an Arcane Caster, Evangelist, Mystery Cultist, and (on the Chaotic Evil side) Demoniac sort of do this. They have the drawback that you lose your powers (including those of the original Base Class) if you DON'T do your Obedience each day, so you need to worship something that has an Obedience that can be done quiet and hidden, or get a break from your deity to do a quiet and hidden version of it.

For Divine Caster worshippers of Sarenrae, a 1 or preferably 2 level dip in Dawnflower Dissident will work wonders (and they don't have to worry about the Obedience ritual). Problem is surviving that long if you are starting in Rahadoum (as opposed to starting somewhere else and coming there later).

If I had to hazard a guess, the church of Sarenrae is probably already making use of both the first and second techniques above, and some other churches are probably making use of the first technique above (probably especially the church of Nethys and to a lesser extent the church of Norgorber).


HectorVivis wrote:

Still, their philosophy isn't evil, neither it is good I agree. They just don't want to mess up with divine magic, be it to heal or harm. It's neutral.

You would say they are evil if their purpose was to destroy divine magic and all clerics, and make their people suffer, but it's not the case.

As told in this summary on Rahadoum's approach of the divine, they don't persecute clerics because they are clerics. As soon as you don't break their law, they let you go around freely.

In Rahadoum, healing by magic is forbidden, as you can't use marijuana for medical use in some countries. You have to rely on other means, because most of the time, they exist. You don't need a healing spell, you can try to heal him (with the skill), and do your best. It takes time, it's less powerful... But it exist, and it's legal.

Sorry but Pathfinder and Golarion are not real world, So rulewise it's true that at the beginning they are not Evil, they are Lawful Neutral, but the rules are made in this way : If you harm or kill an Evil person it's Good, if you harm or kill a Good person it's Evil.

Depending on whom they harm the most they will gradually turn Good or Evil... If the balance is somewhat equal they will remain Neutral.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

You'd think that after all this time of Rahadoum banning everything divine, some deity would have figured out how to so an end run around the First Law by giving their priests magic that detects as Arcane. Witch (including the new Hex Channeler archetype) would be only the most obvious building block for this, although maybe too obvious -- the Pure Legion might catch on. Actually, depending upon how willing the Pure Legion was to resort to hypocrisy, they might even make such a discovery themselves to cement their power . . . and SOMETHING might even use the Pure Legion in the way described above, to advance its own purposes while the fools still think they are serving the First Law. Muaa Haaa Haaa Haaa Haaa Haaa . . . .

Hmm, a being that is a master of Law and king of manipulators, Gorum anyone? (Jk, this place seems perfect for Asmodeus to get yet another foothold with proper law manipulation.)


^Asmodeus yes, Gorum no, or at least not until war breaks out again. Gorum ISN'T a master manipulator (and not a master of Law either), and doesn't even have a quiet Obedience, and doesn't seem like the kind of deity who would give his Evangelists/etc. a break on their Obedience to make it quiet in Rahadoum.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Navarion wrote:
HectorVivis wrote:

^ It's told in the introduction: The price is too high.

They see divine magic as a paladin see an evil healing spell: You give power to these entities that, if I well understood the background of Golarion, caused a huge mess.

The problem is not you try to heal the child, it's the fact you are a cleric. If there weren't any cleric, the gods wouldn't probably be here in the first place, so a lot of things wouldn't have happened.

By saving 1 child today, he could bring terrible loss in the future.

It's not evil. It's just a particular philosophy that believes using divine power in any mean isn't a good deed.

From what I read about Rahadoum they expelled all faiths because the land was being torn apart by religious wars. And in Pathfinder morality isn't a matter of philosophy but absolute. It can be magically detected, used to smite foes etc. If you flog a Cleric for healing a dying child you commit an evil act, and if you do it often enough your alignment will shift towards evil. And if you die you will end up on one of the not-so-nice outer planes with devils, demons or daemons who won't give a hoot about your philosophy.

You aren't a nurse or a medic, you perform surgery on someone in a emergency, the person survive and even improve. That make what you did legal?

AFAIK, no, it don't. You can be forgiven if all the people involved decide to overlook what you did, but it is not legal. Often it isn't even considered a good act, even if done in all honesty and with the intention to help.

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:


Given that the setting specifically calls out Bards & Alchemists as purveyors of magical healing in Rahadoum, the statement I emboldened isn't strictly accurate.

So Rahadoum has its legally certified healers. Maybe we can add witches too.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Claxon wrote:

I don't think this is really appropriate for the rules section, more for the campaign setting dicussion but that's not hugely important.

I am however interested in knowing how druid's and ranger's are regarded in Rahadoum. Both fall into the "natural magic" category, which is a subset of divine spell casting. But unlike other divine casters their powers aren't necessarily a result of being granted by a deity. Though you could consider the Green Path or nature worship like worshipping a deity for a druid, a ranger needs no deity nor is it even clear where their power comes from other than being labeled as "divine".

I am very interested in knowing how these "divine" spellcasters would be handled in Rahadoum.

PRD wrote:

Arcane Sight

...
If you concentrate on a specific creature within 120 feet of you as a standard action, you can determine whether it has any spellcasting or spell-like abilities, whether these are arcane or divine (spell-like abilities register as arcane), and the strength of the most powerful spell or spell-like ability the creature currently has available for use.

It is all here, I think. It is possible to determine if your source of power is arcane or divine. Not if it is nature magic, ancestral worship or some other thing. So Rahadoum prohibit divine magic.


Actually, just thought of another window of vulnerability for Rahadoum: Razmiran's "priests" are actually all Arcane casters. For the most part, they also don't actually perform any real healing (instead giving their subjects Temporary Hit POints), although the most powerful ones do get this ability eventually. So if Razmiran were so inclined, he could direct some of them to conceal their "Divine" trappings (which would only be difficult psychologically, not mechanically) and have them infiltrate Rahadoum. Normally he wouldn't have much chance of competing with truly Divine faiths except by military force, but Rahadoum has accidentally done part of his dirty work for him. A similar phenomenon has happened in recent times in parts of our world.

Razmiran probably wouldn't do this right now, because he has more immediate problems to worry about, but later on (like after he manages to make himself immortal) this could be a very useful trick for him.

* * * * * * * *

On the Good side, Magambyan Arcanist and Pathfinder Savant are another couple of ways to sneak Divine Magic through Rahadoum's defenses, although these (especially the latter) are hard to come by and not very efficient, so I wouldn't expect them to give much competition to the Razmiran Priest Infiltration Division, let alone the Dawnflower Dissidents and secret Evangelists of Saranrae, Nethys, Norgorber, Milani, and Asmodeus (and maybe other malignant entities).

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