Patch Changes to Firearms & Gunslingers


Homebrew and House Rules

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I want to give a little rework to firearms and gunslingers to eliminate full-round touch attacking, make firearms less annoying to use, and give more value to the gunslinger's deeds. I try to accomplish this by:

1) Firearms now target normal AC. Touch attacks are only possible through a gunslinger deed that costs grit and isn't modified by true grit.

2) Firearms now add Dexterity to damage rolls.

3) Misfires can only occur if the gun breaks or is reloaded by a non-proficient character.

4) Quick clear is replaced with a deed that works like the swashbuckler's derring-do deed, but with skills benefiting a gritty combatant.

5) Fast musket is gone from Musket Master. Instead, the archetype grants early Vital Strike progression.

You can read the full notes here.

My biggest concern is my proposed Slinger's Knack and what to do about the Lightning Reload deed, which strikes me as rather bland and mostly unhelpful for a high level ability. I might also want to make ammunition cheaper. What do you think?

Dark Archive

I like the advantage misfires have for the proficient character, that feels like a good advantage to gain over losing Touch AC. Part of me dislikes dropping the Touch AC aspects of firearms- I feel like they need some sort of uber-deadliness to them.

My solution had been to create a armor property- Bulletproof. Armor with Bulletproof provide AC against firearm attacks.

Removing it altogether though, that is simpler. Simpler is also sometimes easier too.

As for Slinger's Knack, I don't understand why Heal is there. Why not Acrobatics instead? That'd help to reward more crazy derring-do.

Fast Musket can take the axe. That was OP. Vital Strike progression makes it more in flavor with a more sniper-y gunslinger. Very kewl.

As for Lightning Reload... I've always felt that it would be a great ability, if it weren't gained at 11th level.

All-in-all, feels like a good direction that makes me rethink a few things. Kewl.

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I really disliked the Musket Master archetype because the game very deliberately created a distinction between two-handed and one-handed firearms and tried to create a trade off between the two. Then the Musket Master threw that out the window, forgetting the fact that a musket that can be reloaded like a pistol is basically just a better pistol. I wanted to remove that problem while giving two-handed a cool niche.

I agree with you about Lightning Reload. I'm not sure why they didn't make that a 7th level deed so you could use it with dead shot.

I choose Heal because I always imagined soldier-types knowing and fixing wounds, but you're right. i hesitated with Acrobatics because it's the best skill in the swashbuckler's derring-do deed, and I don't want to just steal it. I did consider the idea of having them all be bluff and intimidate related to the gunslinger's ability to influence others with his awesome presence, but I think that might be a bit too powerful.

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Actually, perhaps Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Ride, and something else? The swashbuckler's derring-do gives Acrobatics, Ride, Climb, Swim, Fly

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Any other opinions or suggestions about this? One of my players is eager to give these rules a try. He really hated misfires and other cumbersome firearm rules, and really disliked how the gunslinger couldn't really do anything other than kill people with a gun. He couldn't even take advantage of deeds because he had to save grit points for misfires.


I like your changes for the gunslinger. This is how it should be I feel.


I personally like the touch A.C. attacks with firearms. I thought it was a neat and worthwhile trade-off for the reduction in range increments that muskets and pistols have had since 3.5 edition.

I'm not sure if you care for siege weapons, but gunpowder siege weapons like cannons are also affected, I believe. Can't check right now but I will try to look later if you are interested.

How many players want to use guns in your campaign? I can appreciate a need for simplicity.

Shadow Lodge

I like your changes specially to the useless deeds expert loading and deadshot. Changes also make firearms more reliable and makes you spend less time "not sucking". Some things that still bug me and maybe could be addressed.

-Double barreled firearms: Are they still used? Have you tweked them now there ?
-Alchemical cartridges: Still lets you reload as a free action
-Advanced firearms: still a thing? As of now revolvers are the only way to use TWF realiably.
-Prices: Prices stay the same? Ive always felt prices for firearms and amunitions are alittle bit too ridiculous on a mechanical way. It used to be a balancing factor for touch hits, now this is gone, will you change prices? I think they should be 10% of listed prices, they would still make then very expensive, but not "as expensive as a small town"
-TWF: there is still no way to reload witouth a free hand altought its stilll possible with gun twirling(terrible feat tax prereqs tought) or by having many arms(weird)

Note: Firearms dex to damage creates a precedent for bows, making them useless compared to firearms, this may or may not a have a big impact on game ,altought firearms is the reason people dont use bows anymore imo

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I have one gunslinger in my campaign as well as another player interestd in them.

- I'm still debating on what to do with double-barreled firearms. I do like the idea of blowing both of them as an attack action or some other special attack, though.

- Alchemical cartridges do indeed let you reload as a free action for one-handed firearms. But you can no longer get free action reloads with muskets.

- I decided not to have advanced firearms in my campaign, but I do respect their niche for the purpose of wild west campaigns. Instead, I simply want to add more types of early firearms, creating more variety and give players hopes of an "upgrade" from their normal firearm without the GM feeling uneasy about introducing advanced firearms. I want one of them to be a flintlock revolver, which takes a minimum standard action to fully reload. When I create these, I will update the document.

- I houseruled that all firearms and ammo are priced according to Gunsmithing, but I'm considering reducing it more. I do consider the expense a tradeoff, but agree the prices are way out of line.

- The new Pistolero lets you dual-wield at 3rd level, which I suspect is around when you could ever afford a second gun.

- I think the short range of firearms is a nice tradeoff for dex to damage.


DamnIAmPretty wrote:
Part of me dislikes dropping the Touch AC aspects of firearms- I feel like they need some sort of uber-deadliness to them.

Muskets quite literally just bounced off armor back then (myth busters confirmed this), so early firearms attacking Touch AC is basically just fantasy. Which is okay if it's limited by something like grit, but all the time Touch AC (with better crit and die size than bows) is just frankly OP.

Shadow Lodge

Cyrad wrote:

I have one gunslinger in my campaign as well as another player interestd in them.

- I'm still debating on what to do with double-barreled firearms. I do like the idea of blowing both of them as an attack action or some other special attack, though.

- Alchemical cartridges do indeed let you reload as a free action for one-handed firearms. But you can no longer get free action reloads with muskets.

- I decided not to have advanced firearms in my campaign, but I do respect their niche for the purpose of wild west campaigns. Instead, I simply want to add more types of early firearms, creating more variety and give players hopes of an "upgrade" from their normal firearm without the GM feeling uneasy about introducing advanced firearms. I want one of them to be a flintlock revolver, which takes a minimum standard action to fully reload. When I create these, I will update the document.

- I houseruled that all firearms and ammo are priced according to Gunsmithing, but I'm considering reducing it more. I do consider the expense a tradeoff, but agree the prices are way out of line.

- The new Pistolero lets you dual-wield at 3rd level, which I suspect is around when you could ever afford a second gun.

- I think the short range of firearms is a nice tradeoff for dex to damage.

I would notice a recomendation for TWF, maybe give the gun twirling feat (barring prerequisites) at third level instead of two weapon fighting. Because:

1. Makes you able to full attack twf with regular pistols instead of using multibarreled weapons such as revolvers
2. Its incredibly easier to get twf with gunslinger than to get gun twirling (gunslinger is alrdy feat hungry)
3. It fits temathically for the pistolero able to handle small firearms with ease and jugle them

Also i believe some kind of pistol should be albe to count as a light weapon for TWF, the same way the handcrossbow does. Coat pistol is a good cantidadate, since it weights as much as a dagger

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ElementalXX, you raise valid points, but I'm not really a fan of gun twirling because:
1) It feels really silly to me, though I can't discredit people wanting to do it.
2) Every ability of the feat requires using another feat to use, so offering this as a bonus feat would require me to completely rewrite it.
3) The feat downplays the one thing I like about it, the ability to shuffle through multiple firearms, which was how historically gunslingers dual-wielded. Given, this isn't viable because of WBL, but still...

You do raise an important issue that grit feats could use re-evaluation. Some of the grit feats would be awesome if they didn't have perplexing feat tax, like the ones that require Mobility and Dodge. Why would a gunslinger want these? The class is a ranged fighter that scales off of Dexterity, has a good Reflex save, and gets a scaling dodge bonus as a class feature.

ElementalXX wrote:
Also i believe some kind of pistol should be albe to count as a light weapon for TWF, the same way the handcrossbow does. Coat pistol is a good cantidadate, since it weights as much as a dagger

That's a good catch. I went ahead and made a change to the pistolero ability that it treats one-handed firearms as light weapons for TWF. But I agree that probably that should be a property that some firearms have in the first place.

CommandoDude wrote:
Muskets quite literally just bounced off armor back then (myth busters confirmed this), so early firearms attacking Touch AC is basically just fantasy. Which is okay if it's limited by something like grit, but all the time Touch AC (with better crit and die size than bows) is just frankly OP.

Agreed. Even in colonial periods, pistols couldn't penetrate armor.

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You mentioned that you would like to see double-barreled weapons get reworked. What concerns specifically do you have about them?

I also want to rework the scatter property because I find it rather meh and really annoying as it would require a player to roll multiple times per attack. I'm thinking either it's just a cone that requires a save (DC = 10 + 1/2 BAB + Dex) or it deals full damage to a single target and does minimum to others in a cone, similar to the directed blast from the grenadier.

Maybe you can also look at this draft of the flintlock revolver. I'm debating whether making the minimum reload time a move action or standard action.

Proto-Revolver:

Price 3,250 gp; Type one-handed firearm
Dmg (M) 1d8 B and P; Dmg (S) 1d6 B and P; Critical ×4; Range 20 ft.; Capacity 6
Special —; Weight 4 lbs.
An early version of the revolver, the proto-revolver fires using a flintlock mechanism with clockwork automatically revolving the chambers after every shot. Reloading all chambers requires 2 full-round actions. Using alchemical cartridges or the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to 1 full-round action. Using both reduces the reload time to a standard action.


CommandoDude wrote:
DamnIAmPretty wrote:
Part of me dislikes dropping the Touch AC aspects of firearms- I feel like they need some sort of uber-deadliness to them.
Muskets quite literally just bounced off armor back then (myth busters confirmed this), so early firearms attacking Touch AC is basically just fantasy. Which is okay if it's limited by something like grit, but all the time Touch AC (with better crit and die size than bows) is just frankly OP.

Lol. What' re you doing bringing the real world into mah fantasy world with nonsense mechanics? Out of curiosity, how far was the shot in mythbusters? Pathfinder early firearms only touch within 30-40 ft, then it's full armor.

Shadow Lodge

The problem was that firearms are the only weapons which tried to "emulate real life" and failed pretty horribly in a mechanical way. you dont have this discussion of why a Warhammer should target touch ac or so. Selective realism is bad for the game, specially pathfinder asumes certain level of abstraction on the rules.

Cyrad:

My concerns are basically about the disparities, double musket lets you fire twice per shot, but double pistol lets you fire an extra bullet per action (one extra per full attack). I was mostly ok with the pistol because it emulates a feat the gunslinger lacks, compared to the bow(Manyshot) Albeit with a penalty. The double musket i have mixed feelings about it, but in general i think is overpowered. It should be like the double crossbow, minimun reload of move action or swift with a high level class feature(bolt ace)

I would say minumum move action(at least, my oficial position is free action), somewhow, beacause by level 11 you can fire 6 times (3 for BAB+1 rapid shot+ haste+ multiclass shenanigans(like barbarian dip)). This means after a full attack you are basically stunned.

Giving limitations to a weapon is what made crossbows so underused, except for lvl 1 wizards.

An option i have seen is that a feat like pummeling style (sniping style maybe?) could be used as a gunslinger classfeature for firearms (tying the attacks available to class levels and not to BAB)
Meaning you can have a realiable way to deal damage and be more realistic(flintlock weapons take time to reload)

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While it may not touch your topic directly, I wonder if you also plan to address the mechanics for handling/regaining grit?

As is, killing blow encourages metagaming. Also, with more classes relying on these mechanics, like the swashbuckler, kill-stealing becomes a problem (this actually happened early on in one of my gaming groups, with a sin-eater inquisitor and a gunslinger both relying on a killing-blow mechanic to use their class abilities effectively).

Sorry if I'm derailing, just curious.


Rabbiteconomist wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
DamnIAmPretty wrote:
Part of me dislikes dropping the Touch AC aspects of firearms- I feel like they need some sort of uber-deadliness to them.
Muskets quite literally just bounced off armor back then (myth busters confirmed this), so early firearms attacking Touch AC is basically just fantasy. Which is okay if it's limited by something like grit, but all the time Touch AC (with better crit and die size than bows) is just frankly OP.
Lol. What' re you doing bringing the real world into mah fantasy world with nonsense mechanics? Out of curiosity, how far was the shot in mythbusters? Pathfinder early firearms only touch within 30-40 ft, then it's full armor.

I highlighted the important part for you. It's clear the devs thought "Hey it's a gun so it should just ignore armor...because!" when there's no rhyme or reason for it.

And yes, that is about the range they fired the gun. Sorry, but a low velocity ball shaped projectile doesn't have much penetrating power.

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EMULATING LIFE
It's funny you mention that Pathfinder's problem with being horribly selective about realism, ElementXX. Sean K Reynolds said something to this effect when discussing his new RPG.

DOUBLE SHOTS
I see. I always thought the double-barreled weapon rules seemed vague. I always ran them at my table like the pistol -- it's basically Manyshot except you don't need to full attack. I always found it rather annoying that you have to reload each barrel separately, but I'm debating whether or not to remove that. Muskets are minimum move action reload anyway.

PROTO-REVOLVER
Move action to reload my proposed proto-revolver? Alright.

I like it when weapons have different trade offs. The crossbow's only strength over the bow is its simple weapon categorization, but it has crippling downsides compared to the difference between a longsword and a heavy mace.

With that in mind, I want the revolver's strength to be the ideal dual-wielding firearm, but after you nova'd all your shots, you have reloading issues to deal with. A standard will not do at all as it would keep you out of the fight for two rounds, which is way too punishing.

PUMMELING STYLE
The Dead Shot deed is what Pummeling Style is, except the gunslinger got it at 7th level and had to spend a grit point. I replaced it with Vital Strike so the gunslinger would have a way to take advantage of muskets now that I removed Fast Musket. Making the original Dead Shot deed a feat might be a good idea.

GRIT AND KILLING BLOWS
I've never had a problem with kill-stealing with grit at my table. The gunslinger usually gets a critical hit every fight anyway. I currently don't have any plans to change the grit system, but I am trying to get into the habit of rewarding grit for daring acts. I've been brainstorming a way to create a reliable way to rule daring acts so they don't have to be an optional rule.

MY PERSONAL REASON FOR THESE FIREARM/GUNSLINGER CHANGES
For those interested, I'd like to mention what propelled me to make these changes.

Spoiler:
The gunslinger in my campaign is more of the roleplayer type. He likes making and roleplaying characters for story and flavor. He made a Pathfinder character out of a character he wrote in a story. He wanted to be a tough pirate gunslinger that carries a small arsenal on him. Not an unreasonable character concept.

Unfortunately, the downsides to firearms made to offset the touch attacks ended up making the gunslinger class very unfun to play. To make matters worse, he had horrible luck with misfires. Even houseruling quick clear as a swift action did nothing as he still misfired like three or four times every fight. In addition, he couldn't really use any of the deeds that would enable to do anything but shoot things. The gunslinger's class description and the way WBL works in PF also compromised his vision of carrying more than one type of firearm. He felt completely gimped in every fight compared to the other party members. Since his character relied on being a tough fighter as part of his concept, it also hurt the roleplaying as well.

Frustrated, my player approached me defeatedly, wondering if he could retrain his character sometime. Since he felt he couldn't make the character concept he envisioned with PF rules, my player resided to just make a min-maxed musket master instead. I really don't like hearing my players severely compromise their character concept because of arbitrary rules restrictions, especially when I'm in a seat of power to change that. So, I resolved to change that, and offered to house rule changes to make firearms less unfun to use.

So far, he's liking the lack of misfires and considers it a fair trade for loss of touch attacks. He hasn't tried the new deeds yet. He's really hoping I make or revamp new guns and types of ammo.


I for one am also hoping you make some new guns and ammo. The gun selection in Pathfinder is too few for my tastes. I downloaded your rules and I'll be sure to playtest them in my next game.

What if to qualify for a daring act, you have to put yourself in harm's way? Does that help any? Or you have to take damage while accomplishing something.


Cyrad wrote:

EMULATING LIFE

It's funny you mention that Pathfinder's problem with being horribly selective about realism, ElementXX. Sean K Reynolds said something to this effect when discussing his new RPG.

Exactly. In this case, it's the opposite problem of the crossbow. Guns can hit Touch AC in pathfinder just because the Devs think armor is ineffective against guns. What that decision has led to is a broken class, and you can't tell me a full BAB ranged class that targets touch AC with a +1 crit multiplier AND dex to damage is NOT overpowered compared to regular archers. And most DMs know this, which is why Gunslinger gets banned at so many tables (right along with Synthesist Summoner...or just Summoners flat out sometimes)

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DARING ACT
"Putting in harm's way" is a little vague though.

EMULATING LIFE
And to make matters worse, CommandoDude, they gave firearms so many complicated and unfun restrictions to try to compensate for the broken touch attack mechanic.


CommandoDude wrote:
Rabbiteconomist wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
DamnIAmPretty wrote:
Part of me dislikes dropping the Touch AC aspects of firearms- I feel like they need some sort of uber-deadliness to them.
Muskets quite literally just bounced off armor back then (myth busters confirmed this), so early firearms attacking Touch AC is basically just fantasy. Which is okay if it's limited by something like grit, but all the time Touch AC (with better crit and die size than bows) is just frankly OP.
Lol. What' re you doing bringing the real world into mah fantasy world with nonsense mechanics? Out of curiosity, how far was the shot in mythbusters? Pathfinder early firearms only touch within 30-40 ft, then it's full armor.

I highlighted the important part for you. It's clear the devs thought "Hey it's a gun so it should just ignore armor...because!" when there's no rhyme or reason for it.

And yes, that is about the range they fired the gun. Sorry, but a low velocity ball shaped projectile doesn't have much penetrating power.

Cool. Learn something new every day :)


I always felt that the Gunslinger *class* was too one-dimensional. If a fighter is lacking in game breadth, the "single weapon style class" is even more so.

I personally liked the idea of making the Gunslinger class (or maybe even a general 'crazy luck class, of which a gunslinger is one facet', would have more than just the signature weapon as a thing it does.

Give the class the ability to use Grit for non-gun things, like speaking to cause effects (like taunts, or helping teammates) or pulling out some surprising combat maneuvers (like tackling, or throwing something as a distraction).
Add in essentially "buffing" and/or "debuffing" options alongside the pure gun mechanics.

Then allow these alternative-to-gun actions to be used while reloading your weapon.

If you need to spend a round reloading, but you have things to do, like shout taunts from cover distracting or enraging your opponents into missing, then you can keep guns unique in gameplay but the class that primarily uses them still functional.

Shadow Lodge

Cyrad wrote:

EMULATING LIFE

It's funny you mention that Pathfinder's problem with being horribly selective about realism, ElementXX. Sean K Reynolds said something to this effect when discussing his new RPG.

DOUBLE SHOTS
I see. I always thought the double-barreled weapon rules seemed vague. I always ran them at my table like the pistol -- it's basically Manyshot except you don't need to full attack. I always found it rather annoying that you have to reload each barrel separately, but I'm debating whether or not to remove that. Muskets are minimum move action reload anyway.

PROTO-REVOLVER
Move action to reload my proposed proto-revolver? Alright.

I like it when weapons have different trade offs. The crossbow's only strength over the bow is its simple weapon categorization, but it has crippling downsides compared to the difference between a longsword and a heavy mace.

With that in mind, I want the revolver's strength to be the ideal dual-wielding firearm, but after you nova'd all your shots, you have reloading issues to deal with. A standard will not do at all as it would keep you out of the fight for two rounds, which is way too punishing.

PUMMELING STYLE
The Dead Shot deed is what Pummeling Style is, except the gunslinger got it at 7th level and had to spend a grit point. I replaced it with Vital Strike so the gunslinger would have a way to take advantage of muskets now that I removed Fast Musket. Making the original Dead Shot deed a feat might be a good idea.

GRIT AND KILLING BLOWS
I've never had a problem with kill-stealing with grit at my table. The gunslinger usually gets a critical hit every fight anyway. I currently don't have any plans to change the grit system, but I am trying to get into the habit of rewarding grit for daring acts. I've been brainstorming a way to create a reliable way to rule daring acts so they don't have to be an optional rule.

MY PERSONAL REASON FOR THESE...

Actually reread deadshot and pummeling style.

Deadshot doesnt add static modifiers multiple times and maximum extra dices are based on bab, meaning you cant use rapid shot with it, its more like vital strike. This makes it particulary bad cause it uses grit, you have to hit multiple times like a full attack, uses a full round action,like a full attack, but does less damage than a full attack.

Pummelling style is exactly as a full attack mechanically(stattic mods addded multiples times, multiple hits etc) (altought its technically one attack) with a questionable bonus if you crit. Its more similar to mythic vital strike in damage capability, altought muthic vital strike does just one attack roll.

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I think Pummeling Style would be way too powerful for firearms. Unlike firearms, unarmed strikes are difficult to enchant, have bad critical modifier/range, and melee weapons. Remember it also basically guarantees a hit.

I do agree Deadshot is pretty bad and doesn't help make muskets viable (sans Fast Musket). So, I replaced it with Vital Strike.

Kaisoku wrote:

I always felt that the Gunslinger *class* was too one-dimensional. If a fighter is lacking in game breadth, the "single weapon style class" is even more so.

I personally liked the idea of making the Gunslinger class (or maybe even a general 'crazy luck class, of which a gunslinger is one facet', would have more than just the signature weapon as a thing it does.

Give the class the ability to use Grit for non-gun things, like speaking to cause effects (like taunts, or helping teammates) or pulling out some surprising combat maneuvers (like tackling, or throwing something as a distraction).
Add in essentially "buffing" and/or "debuffing" options alongside the pure gun mechanics.

Then allow these alternative-to-gun actions to be used while reloading your weapon.

If you need to spend a round reloading, but you have things to do, like shout taunts from cover distracting or enraging your opponents into missing, then you can keep guns unique in gameplay but the class that primarily uses them still functional.

That sounds pretty neat, though I do find it strange to build class features around the downtime of what your character is supposed to do.


Cyrad wrote:
That sounds pretty neat, though I do find it strange to build class features around the downtime of what your character is supposed to do.

It's not built around the downtime, it's something else that the class can do other than just "shoot gun very well". The fact that you are letting them reload during that time (since their hands are free) just makes it work in synch with it.

It's also why I was thinking of a more general "luck" style of class that had gunslinging as an option. Something like a 'Venturer' class, designed around luck and recklessness, who selects a 'combat career', one of which is Gunslinger (others might be Swashbuckler, Bombardier, Scout, etc, anything that might seem rash or crazy to everyone else: playing with explosives, guns, or simply dashing into combat with little armor and a single weapon).

But that's probably a bigger change than you intended. Adding more non-gun-specific Grit abilities (or even a line of alternative buff/debuff abilities) would expand the Gunslinger a bit and give him some additional gameplay options, while simultaneously allowing you to have guns be something different than just "bows with gunpowder".

.

Speaking of making guns different.

As a way to "add more damage", compared to adding Strength to bows, you could have the option of using Hot Loads. Overloading the powder (or using cartridged ammo built that way) to get extra oomph.
Not always effective realistically, but we are talking the "fantasy" aspect of it... more powder equals more boom, more damage, right?
Increase the risk of damaging your weapon (unless you get a reinforced gun), and Grit mechanics to let the Gunslinger pull it off without always damaging his weapon, and you've got yourself a different option for damage boosting.

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Aye, and that's an interesting idea though I'm not particularly crazy about complicating them by adding in misfires again. I did consider an archetype where a gunslinger can add bonus damage by increasing their misfire value.

DIRECTION WITH SPECIAL AMMO
My goal with special ammo is to allow a gunslinger to sacrifice an attack to perform some special effect or augment the attack in question. These would include smokescreen shots, explosive shot, tracer rounds, bullets that push people away, and bullets that can push the gunslinger. Most of the special ammo has both shot and bullet versions where the effects greatly benefit scatter weapons. I'm considering two directions on how to implement this:

1) Alchemical cartridges: The special ammo are alchemical cartridges. The upside is that the gunslinger does not need to use any feats or class options. The downside is that I'd have to make the cartridges expensive because they're basically alchemical items with much better action economy and range. In addition, they would have static saves.

2) Grit feats: The special ammo are actually grit feats where the gunslinger loads special ammunition into his gun or makes a quick, temporary adjustment to his firearm to execute the special attack. The upside is that I can feel confident making the effects powerful because they would require grit. Additionally, the feats would use the gunslinger's statistics for saves. However, this approach requires the gunslinger spend feats.

3) Feats or cartridges: Some abilities are feats while others are cartridges. Likely, the special attacks that require saves should be feats. This is the option I'm leaning most towards as it has the strengths of #1 and #2 while not making gunslinger significantly more powerful.

4) Cartridges with feat enhancements: The special attacks are catridges. However, feats can allow a gunslinger to utilize a special ammo without paying for it by spending a grit point, using their statistics for saves. However, i'm very concerned this will give too much power to the gunslinger overall.


Cyrad wrote:
Aye, and that's an interesting idea though I'm not particularly crazy about complicating them by adding in misfires again. I did consider an archetype where a gunslinger can add bonus damage by increasing their misfire value.

Doesn't have to be misfire chance. You could simply add damage to the gun directly each time it's used, with the options of Grit removing it, and/or a "reinforced" weapon quality (at increased value) that gives DR or immunity to such damage.

Keeping track of hitpoints on an item isn't that difficult, and less disruptive to play than "you wasted your action".

Re: Different ammo ideas

I like the idea of the cartridge granting some kind of benefit, as obviously you shouldn't have to be "specifically" trained to use the effects of loading a tracer round and such.

However, I do like the idea of giving the Gunslinger a little oomph (at the cost/requirement of Grit), so maybe even just giving him the option of bumping the saves to a personal instead of static thing would make a good Deed.
Tweaked Ammo: If you have at least 1 grit, the saves for effects from alchemical cartridges is 10 + 1/2 gunslinger level + Dex score (or the static DC, whichever is higher).
Something like that could work.

I'm leery against "ammo for free" since the cost of the effect can be handled by the cost of the ammo itself (can follow magic item creation rules for the more exotic effects, etc). This makes the "free effect" a very wide ranging ability (couple gold to a couple thousand gold depending on the ammo being used). I dislike abilities that are too wide-ranging, hard to manage as a DM.

Shadow Lodge

A grit based pummeling style for fire arms would be interesting, and probably balanced since it would be a limited resource. I agree making pummeling style work as it is with firearms would be broken tought because of the critical thing. I wouldnt mind that critical thing to be removed, the important part is making a full attack by firing once which is flavorful, relistic and balanced with regular damage output of other classes

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Tweaked Ammo sounds like a good idea to me. Pummeling Style for firearms might work for a deed feat with the removal of critical hits applying to all attacks.

I'm also considering adding a line to proto-revolver saying you can reload it with a non-free hand.

Here's a draft for a reworked scattering property as well as double-barreled firearms:

Double-Barreled Weapon Quality:
A weapon with the double-barreled quality possesses two parallel barrels that can be fired dependently or at once. When making an attack action or full-attack action, the weapon’s first attack can fire both barrels at once with a -4 penalty. If the attack hits, both shots hit, each applying damage as normal. Bonus damage from magic weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage (such as sneak attack), and critical hit damage apply only once for this attack.

Scatter Weapon Quality:
A weapon with the scatter weapon quality makes a scattering shot attack when loaded with shot ammunition such as pellets or grapeshot. A scattering shot attack affects all creatures in a cone with a length equal to the weapon’s range increment. The weapon makes a single attack roll with a -2 penalty and damages creatures with an AC equal to or less than the attack roll. Creatures in the area do not benefit from mirror image and effects that grant concealment, such as fog or smoke and the blur and invisibility spells. Bonus damage from magic weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage (such as sneak attack), and critical hit damage apply only for the first creature hit.

Shadow Lodge

I like your changes to double barreled weapons it does feel more like manyshot that way plus making it general property makes it much more easier to track and solves problems.

Im not sure about the scatter changes, may be or may be not good, however ive never been sure how scatter weapons work. what kind of action is an scatter attack? full round? attack action? standard? can be used with full attack? If they are full round actions or standard i think the nerf is not necessary, however if they can be done as a part of a full attack yeah the change is justified

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ElementalXX wrote:
I like your changes to double barreled weapons it does feel more like manyshot that way plus making it general property makes it much more easier to track and solves problems.

I learned very early in my software engineering experience that listing a definition in multiple places is really bad design. When reworking the double musket, I realized it's better I make a double-barreled property. I really want there to be more firearm properties anyway, which allows me to make more types of guns.

ElementalXX wrote:
Im not sure about the scatter changes, may be or may be not good, however ive never been sure how scatter weapons work. what kind of action is an scatter attack? full round? attack action? standard? can be used with full attack? If they are full round actions or standard i think the nerf is not necessary, however if they can be done as a part of a full attack yeah the change is justified

In core rules, scattering shot is simply an attack. Provided you can reload, you can full-round scatter shots. I didn't like the core scattering shot for many reasons (having to make attack rolls against each person in AoE for one). Scattering shot should naturally be a property for two-handed weapons. With fast musket gone, I figured they needed a buff, especially since Vital Strike doesn't work with the core scattering shot.


I think firearms and ammunition would probably need a global gold cost reduction. A compound longbow at its maximum strength level is less than 1000 gp. I think advanced 2-handed firearms should probably be priced between 1000 gp and 2000 gp as a baseline, then modified by special properties (Scattering).

Also, with the whole touch-AC thing being removed, some range increments could stand to be modified.

Clustered Shot Already exists as a Pummeling Style for ranged attacks by the way.

Making some new properties could be cool and help give the "vanilla" firearms some flavor. Also, some ammunition could easily provide these properties, as long as ammo can't be mixed (no scattering armor piercing rounds). Examples:
Armor Piercing: When rolling damage, roll your damage die twice and keep the higher result.
Reliable: This firearm cannot be misfired even if reloaded by someone not proficient in firearms.
Heavy Bore: When this firearm is fired as part of a vital strike, it adds an additional weapon damage die of damage. (Probably for the heavier guns, like the culverin, double hackbut).

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I really like the reliable property. I might extend it so that its misfire value only goes up to 1 when the gun has the broken condition.

Reducing prices by 25% to 50% seems reasonable. With 50%, that would make muskets 750 and pistols 500. I'm not so sure about the double-barreled variants. Scattering doesn't need to be much more expensive because scatter weapons will tend to have less range and damage dice and crit modifiers.

I'm also looking towards adding some heavy weaponry as well, ones that take a full round to fire.


Cyrad wrote:
Unfortunately, the downsides to firearms made to offset the touch attacks ended up making the gunslinger class very unfun to play. To make matters worse, he had horrible luck with misfires. Even houseruling quick clear as a swift action did nothing as he still misfired like three or four times every fight.

The randomness of dice is flawed - more or less depending on the manufacturer and the casting of the specific die. Personall, I have a box full of dice that I can swap out if needed. Has your played tried using different d20s?

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I added some new content to the document. This includes new fire descriptions. Though most of the firearms are the same with reduced prices, I also added guns such as alchemy pistols, gatling guns, and a hand cannon. Some of these use new or reworked weapon qualities. You can view a summary of these weapons at the table below.

TABLE: FIREARMS

Ciaran Barnes wrote:
The randomness of dice is flawed - more or less depending on the manufacturer and the casting of the specific die. Personall, I have a box full of dice that I can swap out if needed. Has your played tried using different d20s?

The game is done over MapTool. At a convention, I bought a new set of dice and the first three attacks with them I rolled three consecutive misfires. I really wanted my money back.


While the vital strike compatibility is nice, it's still a pretty significant nerf to only give the first VS, as that is in and of itself weaker than dead shot.

Overall, all you've done is weaken gunslingers and guns as a whole, in exchange for making them slightly more compatible with other classes.

Unfortunately, that does not make them attractive in the least.

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Jamie Charlan wrote:

While the vital strike compatibility is nice, it's still a pretty significant nerf to only give the first VS, as that is in and of itself weaker than dead shot.

Overall, all you've done is weaken gunslingers and guns as a whole, in exchange for making them slightly more compatible with other classes.

Unfortunately, that does not make them attractive in the least.

i value your first impressions, but I feel like you're looking at this in a binary way. Yes, this is probably a net nerf to gunslingers. However, gunslingers are powerful because of gamebreaking reasons (touch attacks). To compensate, the game introduced mechanics to hinder firearms, making them unfun to use. My changes aim to remove the brokenness and make firearms and gunslingers more fun to play. Ultimately, that's the most important aspect of a class.

Besides, the gunslinger still enjoys some vertasility (since they no longer need to waste grit on misfires) and they ultimately do more damage

My main goal with Vital Strike was giving two-handed firearms some love.

Shadow Lodge

Jamie Charlan wrote:

While the vital strike compatibility is nice, it's still a pretty significant nerf to only give the first VS, as that is in and of itself weaker than dead shot.

Overall, all you've done is weaken gunslingers and guns as a whole, in exchange for making them slightly more compatible with other classes.

Unfortunately, that does not make them attractive in the least.

Misfires are rreally quite the thing and in general i consider them annoying and too random. This is not mine but its a complete analysis of gunslingers misfire. It goes to absurdly high percentages:

Abraham spalding wrote:

So what you do is you take 10% on the first attack. This means 90% of the time you will get a second attack 10% of that 90% is 9 so 19% of the time you will have a misfire by your second attack. this leaves 81% of the time you will get a third attack, 10% of that is 8.1 so 27.1% of the time you will have a misfire by the end of your third attack, this leaves 72.9% of the time you will get your fourth attack, 10% off that again means 7.29 putting us up to a misfire by your fourth attack chance of 34.39%.

You remember critical fumbles? Always happen on a 1? The probabilities for this are the same, but doubled (since it starts at 2).

Now remember a misfire means you missed the attack.
So we have:
10% chance misfire first shot. No attacks land
19% chance of a misfire by the second shot. 1 attack lands at most
27.1% chance of a misfire by the third shot. 2 attacks land at most
34.39% chance of a misfire by fourth shot. 3 attacks land at most
40.951% chance of a misfire by the fifth shot. 4 attacks land at most

IF you have a misfire on the first shot you can quick clear for 1 grit to have a full attack action on the next round (since you can change to a standard action attack and then spend grit to take a move action clear).

A misfire on any other shot means you cannot full attack on the following round -- you need either a standard action to quick clear or to spend grit and take a move action. Either way you have an upwards limit of 1 shot on that round with a 10% misfire rate.

This only takes into account a normal pistol and simple paper cartridges, if they have a double pistol those numbers increase by 50% each. Same with a pepperbox (which is a nice choice for early gunslingers since it gives you time between reloads and can delay the use of rapid reload early on).

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Wow, that's pretty ridiculous. 40% chance each round to break your primary weapon just to do what your class is supposed to do. A risky mechanic would be cool, but only if the player chooses to take that risk rather than have the risk forced on him.

Shadow Lodge

My two cents on reevaluating grit feats

Ricochet Shot Deed (Grit):

Ricochet Shot wrote:


You can ricochet a firearm shot off the wall and still hit your target.

Prerequisite: Grit class feature or Amateur Gunslinger feat, Precise Shot.

Benefit: You can fire a shot at a wall or piece of solid terrain, and have it ricochet off. When you do, use the square immediately in front of the wall or piece of solid terrain to determine line of sight to a target, and this square is considered the new origin square of the attack. Use that square to determine the effects of cover, and your own square to determine the effects of concealment. You can make this shot as long as you have at least 1 grit point. When making this shot, you can spend 1 grit point to ignore the effects of all cover or concealment. You must choose to spend the grit point before you make the attack roll.

Explanation: Given how incredibly similar are improved precise shot and this feat, altought IPS is much better, i decided to change it to reflect this. Also blind fight is an almost useless feat a for a gunslinger being a ranged combatant.

Leaping shot deed (Grit):

Leaping shot wrote:


You leap through the air, guns blazing.

Prerequisite: Dex 13, grit class feature or Amateur Gunslinger feat, Dodge, Acrobatics 4 ranks, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump. As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a full attack. The attacks must be made with firearms [...]You can make the attacks at different points during the movement. At the end of this movement, you fall prone unless you succeed at a DC 20 Acrobatics Check to jump. This deed costs 1 grit point to perform[spoiler=Leaping shot deed (Grit)]

Explanation: This feat was confusing as it was written. As per raw it was suppoused to let you make 2 attacks and move as a fullround action. It implied a jump in the description however it only said you moved. Finally it costed grit and made you automatically prone and had 2 feat taxes. In general I found it terrible, both by power and how it was written, this is my attempt to improve it and to preserve the spirit of the feat. Changes are based on the monkey style feat.

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I do need to rework Ricochet Shot because my player uses it and it gets kind of confusing and messed up for him. I am not crazy about the idea of it letting a gunslinger get line of sight in the new square. Instead, I'd rather change it so it simply uses that square to determine the effects of cover. Additionally, the range of the attack is determined by the distance to the new square and from the square to the target.

I really like your draft of Leaping Shot and how you can land on your feet with a successful Acrobatics check.

ElementalXX wrote:
Also blind fight is an almost useless feat a for a gunslinger being a ranged combatant.

This seems to be the case for most of the fun deed feats -- their prerequisites are completely useless for a gunslinger. Why would a gunslinger want Dodge and Mobility? They rarely provoke attacks of opportunity from moving and they get a scaling dodge bonus to AC. Though, the Swashbuckler's nimble has made me want to rework Nimble to instead bestow a scaling Dodge as a bonus feat since many fun feats are locked behind Mobility.

On another note, I'm also considering changing the targeting deed to a standard action. A full-round action really hurts, especially when the gunslinger already loses several attacks and a grit point. The full-round action also cripples musket wielders.

(My player freaked out last night when he finally got a pair of flintlock revolvers. When trying them out on a targeting range, he rolled a natural 19 on an ad hoc Performance check and ended up attracting a crowd to gather around him and watch.)

Shadow Lodge

Yeah i noticed ricochet shot was as confusing as metagamey.

I mean how you know where to shoot if you dont have line of sight? The implications of the feat may be that you have to see him "on the grid".

Alternatevely trought scrying but its such an improbable case i might as well discard it.

Only way i see it happen is that you use mirrors, again this is a very improbable case and the feat doesnt state you need line of sight. I will probably reevaluate the feat when i have time.

Shadow Lodge

(ignore this post)

Shadow Lodge

Cyrad wrote:


On another note, I'm also considering changing the targeting deed to a standard action. A full-round action really hurts, especially when the gunslinger already loses several attacks and a grit point. The full-round action also cripples musket wielders.

(My player freaked out last night when he finally got a pair of flintlock revolvers. When trying them out on a targeting range, he rolled a natural 19 on an ad hoc Performance check and ended up attracting a crowd to gather around him and watch.)

Considering reloading time i think this is a good option altought remember some people consider targeting overpowered even with the fullround action (not my case)

Oh nice your player seems to having fun :) . Good thing you are playtesting the changes, maybe you could give some info of how changes have affected the game ruleswise. I read a journal of some guy who was testing his houserules for monk, was entertaining.

Cyrad wrote:


Though, the Swashbuckler's nimble has made me want to rework Nimble to instead bestow a scaling Dodge as a bonus feat since many fun feats are locked behind Mobility.

This is a really good idea, on a note i dont think mobility is "useless", probably a weak feat in any case. Certaintly im cautios with removing prereqs from feats that fast, but your solution is very neat, giving access to many feats a gunslinger may want as well as easier access to Shadowdancer PRC.

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PLAYTESTING
I'll report the results of the changes to the game as we go along. I must admit I've never ran or been in a Pathfinder game with a high level archer. The gunslinger in my campaign is a powerhouse. So far, this has increased his damage output when he hits, but some quick math tells me an archer fighter of his level would do significantly more damage. Plus, I feel fairly confident the firearm range will keep him in line. Though, right now he's searching for some wondrous item that will somehow increase his range, despite me telling him that the distance property is pretty much it.

TARGETING DEED
Overpowered even with full-round action? I'll have to evaluate it carefully. I'd rather it be more usable, even if I have to tone it down. My player really wants a little extra utility to his character.

DODGE AND FEAT REQUIREMENTS
I do think Mobility needs some love. I've seen some GMs combine it with Fleet and also grant an extra 5 feet of movement. I remembered back in a discussion about giving Swashbuckler more mobility and realized that if nimble got replaced with Dodge or Nimble Moves, it would be fairly doable for the swashbuckler to pick up all the cool mobility feats.

I'll keep an eye on feat requirements and make sure I don't go overboard on them. I'm very much in favor of simplifying requirements, even if that means simply having a minimum BAB or something.

OTHER RANDOM FEAT NOTES
On a random note, deed feats are a design space I very much enjoy and want to expand. In an RPG project I'm designing, every feat has both a passive and active component to it all designed to fit an archetype. For example, Two-Weapon Fighting in this RPG doesn't just make it easier to attack with an off-hand weapon. It also gives the user the option to "Dual Strike," a special attack that's kind of like Vital Strike except the bonus die comes from the off-hand weapon.


My group did something similar to this. We feel that in no way should a class that has good BAB be targeting touch AC just because of the weapon. My sorcerer has hit things by rolling 2 on the d20. We changed firearms to hit regular AC, but when confirming a crit, you resolve the attack against touch AC. Misfires and such are still in the game, and you can spend a point of grit to target touch AC. We don't think that a mundane firearm should negate magical armor. You are trying to hit a moving target which is why you target normal AC. When you crit, you resolve against touch because you've hit them in a vital spot (where there is little to no armor).

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Fnipernackle wrote:
My group did something similar to this. We feel that in no way should a class that has good BAB be targeting touch AC just because of the weapon. My sorcerer has hit things by rolling 2 on the d20. We changed firearms to hit regular AC, but when confirming a crit, you resolve the attack against touch AC. Misfires and such are still in the game, and you can spend a point of grit to target touch AC. We don't think that a mundane firearm should negate magical armor. You are trying to hit a moving target which is why you target normal AC. When you crit, you resolve against touch because you've hit them in a vital spot (where there is little to no armor).

Sean K Reynolds remarked with something similar to this effect. Touch AC was designed so a wizard could hit targets at high levels when enemies get absurd AC bonuses, but this created its own amount of problems. Like you said, Ultimate Combat firearms inherited these problems and amplified them by giving touch attacks to a class with a full BAB and the luxury of having Dex to damage.

Having crit onfirmations target touch sounds interesting, though confirming crits hasnt been an issue in my campaign.

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What do you think of this draft for revised/added alchemical cartridges? I'm a little worried they may be too powerful or too expensive.

Explosive Cartridge:

Price 50 gp
Instead of dealing normal weapon damage, this alchemical cartridge explodes like a splash weapon on a successful ranged touch attack. The target takes 2d6 fire damage plus any bonuses normally applied to the weapon’s damage roll (except precision damage and damage from effects like flaming). Creatures in the splash radius take minimum damage or half the minimum damage on a successful DC 15 Reflex save.
If used in a scatter weapon’s scattering attack, all creatures within the cone of fire take splash damage and the primary target takes damage as normal.

Smoke Cartridge:

Price 20 gp
This alchemical cartridge deals half damage, but splashes (as a thrown splash weapon) on hit, filling the area with smoke for 1 minute. Treat the effect as a fog cloud spell, except that a moderate or stronger wind dissipates the smoke in 1 round.
If loaded in a weapon with the scatter quality, the smoke cloud’s radius increases by 5 feet.

Tracer Cartridge:

Price 50 gp
This alchemical cartridge outlines its target as faerie fire for 1d4 rounds. If used in a scatter weapon’s scattering attack, this cartridge affects all creatures in the cone of fire.

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Comparing them to existing alchemical items/weapons, I'd say you are somewhat on the cheap side.

Also, a smoke effect that lasts longer than one round can easily cripple a ranged character. I'd rather have a 1 round duration (similar to the smoke pellet).

What about a harpoon gun that lets you make ranged grapple checks?

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