|
45 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Does Dragon Disciple's Blood of Dragons apply to the bloodline powers of a Bloodrager?
Blood of Dragons wrote: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. I am thinking about making a tank out of:
Primalist Spelleater Bloodrager (Draconic) 2 / Unbreakable Fighter 2 / Sorceror (Draconic) 1 into Dragon Disciple.
I want to be able to point my DM to some actual text. We both believe it will work, and that they will stack separately but since we generally try to run PFS-style we'd like to see it in writing.
Can anyone point us to the right place, and if not then maybe we can get a FAQ?
No, the ACG states:
Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two
classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme.
While a character can multiclass with these parent classes,
this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities
don’t stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the
character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline),
that choice must match similar choices made by the parent
classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).
Bloodrager draconic is not sorcerer draconic. A bloodrager that takes DD must have the draconic bloodline, or have the GM change his bloodline to draconic, but DD will only advance the sorcerer bloodline and not bloodrager. If you do not have sorcerer levels, you would gain sorcerer draconic bloodline powers per your DD level. And yes, this makes DD a complete trap for bloodragers.
I'm pretty sure that the DD bloodline boost does nothing to the bloodrager's bloodline. That it just works with the sorcerer style bloodlines.
Calth wrote: A bloodrager that takes DD must have the draconic bloodline, or have the GM change his bloodline to draconic Where does it say to go into DD a bloodrager must have the Draconic bloodline?
In the DD it only talks about if you are a sorcerer you need the draconic bloodline. So if I'm not a sorcerer I don't need anything special.
And it's not a complete trap this way, it still making it better then having to dip into a spellcasting class to benefit from it.
Calth wrote: No, the ACG states:
Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two
classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme.
While a character can multiclass with these parent classes,
this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities
don’t stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the
character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline),
that choice must match similar choices made by the parent
classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).
I read that but this is not relevant to my question of "Does the Blood of Dragons ability affect the Bloodrager Bloodline?"
Calth wrote:
Bloodrager draconic is not sorcerer draconic. A bloodrager that takes DD must have the draconic bloodline, or have the GM change his bloodline to draconic, but DD will only advance the sorcerer bloodline and not bloodrager. If you do not have sorcerer levels, you would gain sorcerer draconic bloodline powers per your DD level. And yes, this makes DD a complete trap for bloodragers.
Again, not really relevant thing. Bloodrage is separate from Rage but counts for feat and spell purposes as rage, clear. Does "Bloodline" count as a sorceror bloodline for feat purposes, prestige classes, etc?
Chess Pwn wrote:
In the DD it only talks about if you are a sorcerer you need the draconic bloodline. So if I'm not a sorcerer I don't need anything special.
And it's not a complete trap this way, it still making it better then having to dip into a spellcasting class to benefit from it.
Which, I think RAI you should probably require the draconic bloodline on a bloodrager to go into DD, but as written it only specifies sorceror because sorceror was the only class with the bloodline class feature when DD was written.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
it doesn't matter, since DD specifically calls out sorcerer levels which have nothing to do with the bloodrager's effective level for their bloodline. sure it counts as having a bloodline, but sorcerer levels don't advance bloodrager bloodline just as much as ones effectively gained through DD don't.
It doesn't.
Why?
Because Dragon's Disciple features are a copy of the SORCERER'S Draconic Bloodline, and amplify them.
A Bloodrager's Draconic Bloodline powers are entirely different and thus do not stack.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Secret Wizard wrote: It doesn't.
Why?
Because Dragon's Disciple features are a copy of the SORCERER'S Draconic Bloodline, and amplify them.
A Bloodrager's Draconic Bloodline powers are entirely different and thus do not stack.
A sorcerer bloodline and a bloodrager bloodline are the same base ability, as per the rules on hybrid classes. The only reason Dragon Disciple does not, and cannot, call out bloodrager is because bloodrager did not exist at the time of the rules for dragon disciple were written.
Yes, a bloodrager dipping into DD must have the draconic bloodline or change his bloodline to draconic.
Bloodrager wrote: If the bloodrager takes levels in another class that grants a bloodline, the bloodlines must be the same type, even if that means that the bloodline of one of the classes must change. Subject to GM discretion, the bloodrager can change his former bloodline to make them conform. This reinforces the argument that there is only one bloodline involved, regarless of class of origination. if the bloodlines are unrelated, why must both match?
Artanthos wrote: Secret Wizard wrote: It doesn't.
Why?
Because Dragon's Disciple features are a copy of the SORCERER'S Draconic Bloodline, and amplify them.
A Bloodrager's Draconic Bloodline powers are entirely different and thus do not stack.
A sorcerer bloodline and a bloodrager bloodline are the same base ability, as per the rules on hybrid classes. The only reason Dragon Disciple does not, and cannot, call out bloodrager is because bloodrager did not exist at the time of the rules for dragon disciple were written.
Yes, a bloodrager dipping into DD must have the draconic bloodline or change his bloodline to draconic.
Bloodrager wrote: If the bloodrager takes levels in another class that grants a bloodline, the bloodlines must be the same type, even if that means that the bloodline of one of the classes must change. Subject to GM discretion, the bloodrager can change his former bloodline to make them conform. This reinforces the argument that there is only one bloodline involved, regarless of class of origination. if the bloodlines are unrelated, why must both match?
An Oracle/Shaman has to have her mystery match her spirit, but neither progress the other, just as in this case a Sorcerer/Bloodrager has to have his bloodlines match despite neither progressing the other.
|
3 people marked this as a favorite.
|
This is going to keep coming up until they finally FAQ it.
The thing is though, if you don't have the sorcerer bloodline for DD then it gives you the abilities of the bloodline. I feel it's the same thing that happens with Eldrich Heritage. So since it doesn't grant a bloodline it doesn't need to match up with the bloodrager.
Artanthos wrote: A sorcerer bloodline and a bloodrager bloodline are the same base ability, as per the rules on hybrid classes. I'm curious as to what you're referencing here. It it's the next bit you quoted I see where you're coming from. Thing is again that DD doesn't grant a bloodline that you need to match.
Chess Pwn wrote: The thing is though, if you don't have the sorcerer bloodline for DD then it gives you the abilities of the bloodline. It gives you the abilities of the draconic bloodline. Now, you can't tell me that a bloodrager draconic bloodline is not the draconic bloodline. It is called a bloodline and it is called draconic. Now, what it is not is a "sorceror" bloodline. Of course, there was no such thing as a bloodrager when the Dragon Disciple was around.
Chess Pwn wrote: I feel it's the same thing that happens with Eldrich Heritage. So since it doesn't grant a bloodline it doesn't need to match up with the bloodrager. I definitely see a distinction between the bloodline class feature (bloodrager) and a feat which grants an effective sorceror level for their limited, feat-specified bloodline power. However, I am not sure why "the draconic bloodline (sorceror)" is different from "the draconic bloodline (bloodrager)".
Chess Pwn wrote:
Artanthos wrote: A sorcerer bloodline and a bloodrager bloodline are the same base ability, as per the rules on hybrid classes. I'm curious as to what you're referencing here. It it's the next bit you quoted I see where you're coming from. Thing is again that DD doesn't grant a bloodline that you need to match.
The paragraph Artanthos is referring to clearly states that there is significant overlap between hybrid and parent classes--but unlike the bloodrage ability which clearly lists that it counts as and qualifies as rage as if a barbarian of the bloodrager's level, this statement is missing from the bloodline class feature. Oversight, or deliberate?
I don't mind either way, but this one is really in limbo--and it would make no sense for a bloodrager 5 -- DD to then gain a new "draconic bloodline" (sorceror 1-10) vs simply increasing his existing draconic bloodline (bloodrager 5-15) at a cost of BAB / Spells / DR / bloodrage rounds.
You also have this statement, tying bloodrager bloodlines directly to sorcerer bloodlines.
Hybrid Classes wrote: If a class feature allows the
character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline),
that choice must match similar choices made by the parent
classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).
+1 FAQ and bump. This needs to be clarified - a BR 10/DD 10 should have a full draconic bloodline.
Psyren wrote: +1 FAQ and bump. This needs to be clarified - a BR 10/DD 10 should have a full draconic bloodline. Thank you!
Artanthos wrote: You also have this statement, tying bloodrager bloodlines directly to sorcerer bloodlines. Which to me would imply that anything affecting or requiring "bloodline level" (such as the DD) would apply equally to the Bloodrager and Sorceror versions. It's kind of like the question:
"Do monk levels stack with (brawler or warpriest with weapon focus unarmed) levels for the purpose of determining unarmed damage?"
The answer in some cases is yes (i.e Fighter + Sohei for Weapon Training, most classes with Uncanny Dodge or Sneak Attack), and in other cases is no (channel energy pools and dice from Oracle / Cleric).
I really wish they would just issue a FAQ saying that "all progressive abilities with the same name stack for all classes with that ability unless indicated otherwise" so I don't wind up with a cleric channel, witch channel, oracle channel, shaman channel, and paladin channel energy pool.
The bloodline stacking is clearly allowed with Bloodrager 1/Sorceror 1/Arcanist 18 (bloodline development) and much more powerful than the listed case.
+1 FAQ
Has this been clarified yet? I'd really like to know before I level my bloodrager past 1.. Don't want to get to a higher level and then be stuck with a draconic bloodlined bloodrager...
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
The Dwarven King wrote: +1 FAQ
Has this been clarified yet? I'd really like to know before I level my bloodrager past 1.. Don't want to get to a higher level and then be stuck with a draconic bloodlined bloodrager...
could always retrain... and no.
This has been FAQed several times. It's very unclear. Parent Classes seems to imply that you should have the same bloodline, though that's a bit of a stretch when considering Dragon Disciple.
However, for the moment Dragon Disciple only advances Sorcerer Bloodlines. I'm of the camp that says it should scale Bloodrager bloodlines, and if it doesn't then Bloodragers shouldn't be restricted to the Draconic Bloodline to take the PrC.
As of now, RAW, a Dragon Disciple specifies that it's Sorcerer Bloodline as the bloodline it grants/progresses. And so as of now, RAW, a Bloodrager 10/DD 10 has ten levels of Bloodrager Draconic and ten levels of Sorcerer Draconic.
It's a very reasonable houserule to have DD progress the Bloodrager line. It would not be at all surprising to see the wording of DD change, now that more than one kind of Draconic bloodline exists. But that's not the RAW
The RAW on this is very straightforward, honestly, because we have that nice word "Sorcerer". A Bloodrager is not a Sorcerer, so the DD doesn't help it. Don't bet on anything else for PFS until you see an errata on the subject.
I do think that DD would advance Bloodrager's Draconic bloodline, but since other things require you to pick between two similar options (Example: PrC spell progression) if you did both BR and Sorc I think you would have to pick BR's or Sorc's Bloodline to advance, I doubt you would be able to advance both of them alongside each other. I think that's what you were asking about?
Parent Class: Barbarian, they get bloodrage and (Copy Paste: Bloodrage counts as the barbarian's rage class feature for the purpose of feat prerequisites, feat abilities, magic item abilities, and spell effects).
Parent Class: Sorcerer, they gain a Bloodline, which while different from sorcerer, some of them are very similar, such as the Draconic Bloodline, unfortunately it does not say anything about feats, prerequisites, magic items, or spell effects under bloodlines as it does under bloodrage, but it may have been nothing but an oversight, because they are still human and make mistakes. Until they say something official I would simply add that last sentence under bloodrage to the end of bloodline as well. Also maybe they thought because it specifies Sorcerer as a parent class, and the name of the ability exactly matches the name of the sorcerer ability "Bloodline" they figured it was not needed.
Faq'd though, hopefully we will get an official answer on this.
Bandw2 wrote: The Dwarven King wrote: +1 FAQ
Has this been clarified yet? I'd really like to know before I level my bloodrager past 1.. Don't want to get to a higher level and then be stuck with a draconic bloodlined bloodrager...
could always retrain... and no. I understand that a home game would be able to buuuut since I'm playing it in PFS that errata is necessary.
At this time DD has not been reworked to work with BR. You still get the sorcerer bloodline from DD and the BR bloodline as separate.
There is not going to be a FAQ on this as existing faqs already cover it to a satisfactory extend. (the "do similar class abilities stack" one)
I know full well that on this forum the problem of "I want a rule to be like this, so I'm going to question the established rules until they judge on my personal grievance specifically" is the norm rather than the exception, however, this has been going on since the playtest. Its been enough :P
Diekssus wrote: There is not going to be a FAQ on this as existing faqs already cover it to a satisfactory extend. (the "do similar class abilities stack" one)
I know full well that on this forum the problem of "I want a rule to be like this, so I'm going to question the established rules until they judge on my personal grievance specifically" is the norm rather than the exception, however, this has been going on since the playtest. Its been enough :P
The problem is really confusing though, especially when you look at existing FAQs (like for Weapon Training).
Is the "Bloodline Class Feature" the "Bloodline Class Feature"? As written, a Bloodline is not a Bloodline--one belongs to a sorcerer, the other belongs to the blooodrager, and even though you must make the same choices and the abilities have identical names, they are not the same thing. This is akin to a prestige class that "stacks with your rogue level for determining the number of sneak attack dice" when used on a hybrid class which gets sneak attack but doesn't have a rogue level.
The design team (SKR specifically) said they minimize confusion by either having an identical ability with an identical name, or a different ability with a different name. I.e. Rage and Bloodrage are different abilities, obviously. Could they not have named it a "Lineage" or "Heritage" instead of a "Bloodline"?
This is one of those poorly thought out things like certain sorcerer bloodlines with feats requiring a +8 base fortitude save...
And thanks for the necro.
Arksangiel wrote: Is the "Bloodline Class Feature" the "Bloodline Class Feature"? As written, a Bloodline is not a Bloodline--one belongs to a sorcerer, the other belongs to the blooodrager, and even though you must make the same choices and the abilities have identical names, they are not the same thing. The wording of the ability is not the same, if only because it requires the whole bloodrage state. So it is not confusing, the faq already says that unless that is the case, they don't stack and are not the same ability.
Arksangiel wrote: And thanks for the necro. I think a thread with 10 recent posts with a 1 month gap hardly qualifies as necro
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
I actually just don't feel that DD and bloodrager dragon bloodlines mingle well enough to say they stack, at least effectively. which is why i say no.
DD abilities (bite, breath weapon and wings) all say they are basically giving you the BL ability earlier then normal. Additionally, they modify the ability some way once you get the BL ability via level.
As DD stands, it needs only 3 changes to be 100% compatible.
Change 1: Blood of Dragon needs to say it adds your DD level to the level of the class granting you a bloodline.
Change 2: Wings need a slight rework, as it says it changes the speed to 90 feet. A rework would change it to be, "When you gain the wings ability from your bloodline, increase the speed by 30 feet."
Change 3: Dragon Form. This one would be changed to say, "You gain this ability as the bloodrager bloodline, if your bloodline comes from bloodrager levels. When you are high enough level, you add you DD level to your BR level to determine the number of rage rounds you have per day."
Basically, it removes your outta rage use of Wings and Dragon Form compared to the current way it works.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Diekssus wrote: Arksangiel wrote: And thanks for the necro. I think a thread with 10 recent posts with a 1 month gap hardly qualifies as necro
Nah, its conjuration. Thread of Life.
This really needs an FAQ, and I'm really surprised that they haven't come out with an answer. It seems like bloodrager was really made to go with dragon disciple, but the designers have just left us hanging as to how it would work.
Bump for FAQ, this needs to be addressed properly (and not the "give the GM the choice" thing, as this prevents the build to be effective in PFS (because the above decision ultimately becomes houserules, which is illegal in PFS)).
I'd like to have to the Blood Rager's bloodline progress. It seem cool but nothing over powered.
|
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
|
+1 FAQ.
My opinion would be yes, DD would progress the bloodragers draconic bloodline. However, it would not help out with the bloodrage, damage reduction or any other class features that is not related to the bloodline. That way, the player would stil benefit from the prestige class and it's benefit, at the cost of not advancing some of his other barbarian relatede class features. So one is given a choice in the end.
this really needs to be allowed into PFS, i feel most home games like my own would allow it and for a bloodrager to continue to gain rage rounds as he levels. Hell thay can make it be for a bloodrager he has to take the dragon bloodline...IDK why it has not been addressed with so many questions out about this same issue. Maybe the fear is an massive wave of bloodragers/ Dragon Disciples flooding PFS. I know i would have my Nagaji bloodrager retrain right away for this if it gets allowed and i dont loose bloodrage rounds ^_^ i invite everyone to mark this thread as FAQ so it can be addressed soon...
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
