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Awesome video. I would have preferred the editing to not have focused at the end (before the credits) on the one lad who still had a problem with the "experiment" - mostly the other boys seemed very positive on their co-ed experience and extremely impressed by their female counterparts.
Role-playing games - games for all people.
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It's really weird to me this whole "RPGs are for girls too" argument.
I really wonder if that is such a strange thing.
I have my D&d red box since I was 7.
The second person I ever invited to play was a girl.
I was part of a club about rpgs, comics and videogames and there have never been a shortage of girls.
It's so weird to hear that to some people is somewhat unexpected, because it's so common in my experience that is not even debatable.
Girls play dnd, there are a couple in two games I'm in. Granted the ratio is 1-5 or so but it's still something to talk about. I think that the main reason people think it's a dude game is because the first kind of person we invite to them are dudes. I've invited 1 girl for every 10 dudes I've invited. Don't know why, maybe it's because I know my bros better than my female friends.
Personally I have to agree with the above sadly...
On my table I was the only girl for a while (a friend finally got his GF to start playing and she is addicted now)
Until about 2006, I always had a girl in my group since I started playing, and she is my sister. That ended when she moved away (as did the group, since it really only consisted of me, my sis, and her hubby). Since I got back into playing 2 years ago, I have had quite a few female people in the various roll20.net groups I have been a part of. And with the exception of 1 group, the ones that lasted had at least 1 girl in the group. And if the girl ends up dropping, the group typically ends soon after.
I prefer having at least 1 girl in any group I become part of, because (anecdotal) statistically they have a higher chance to last.
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It's really weird to me this whole "RPGs are for girls too" argument.
Yes, I find it weird too, but it doesn't make the fact that RGPs are mostly associated with boys less true.
Especially at this age, girls are more likely to miss on an opportunity to learn about RPGs because this is a boy's club activity (and at this age, boys often play apart for girls and vice versa). The fact that most RPGs are "publicized" around killing monsters and stealing their treasure in order to become better at killing monsters may not attract your typical per-adolescent girl, despite the fact that RPGs have the potential to be much more than that that and equally please girls' interest (which I recognise as different from that of boys, if only as a construct of our society)
I don't want to go into gender stereotypes and whatnot, but it is unfortunate how girls and boys will miss on opportunities to discover new things that could define them as adult individual, simply based on how we presented to them.
Companies are making effort to make RPGs less repulsive to girls, but there is still lots to be done to capture their interest.
It's really weird to me this whole "RPGs are for girls too" argument.Yes, I find it weird too, but it doesn't make the fact that RGPs are mostly associated with boys less true.
Especially at this age, girls are more likely to miss on an opportunity to learn about RPGs because this is a boy's club activity (and at this age, boys often play apart for girls and vice versa). The fact that most RPGs are "publicized" around killing monsters and stealing their treasure in order to become better at killing monsters may not attract your typical per-adolescent girl, despite the fact that RPGs have the potential to be much more than that that and equally please girls' interest (which I recognise as different from that of boys, if only as a construct of our society)
I don't want to go into gender stereotypes and whatnot, but it is unfortunate how girls and boys will miss on opportunities to discover new things that could define them as adult individual, simply based on how we presented to them.
Companies are making effort to make RPGs less repulsive to girls, but there is still lots to be done to capture their interest.
As a self proclaimed brony (sort of. MLP is not exactly aimed at older girls either but meh), I must say, keep my D&D away from my MLP. Last thing I need is an Alicorn dropping in going all Super Saiyan and destroying the BBEG with love and friendship :P
As a self proclaimed brony (sort of. MLP is not exactly aimed at older girls either but meh), I must say, keep my D&D away from my MLP. Last thing I need is an Alicorn dropping in going all Super Saiyan and destroying the BBEG with love and friendship :P
Did I brought up MLP? I almost did, then retracted.
I'm torn with the concept of a "pink packaged" RPG (not that MLP is that pink packaged, but you get the concept). On one side, it would bring young girls to the world of RPGs, and once they are familiar to this world of gaming, transitioning to other RPGs would be easier at later age.
On the other hand, it would enforce the concept that there are RPGs for boys, and different ones for girls. While I do think there should be different types of RPG, I don't think they should be as polarized as gun-packaged G.I. Joes and pick-packaged barbie dolls (even if they are both essentially the same toy).
Still, the mainstream RPGs (or what the mass know of RPGs) can easily be perceived as G.I. Joes with swords... It is changing a bit, and I'm happy with the direction where things are going (and to give credits where credits are due, Paizo is very proactive about making the game as inclusive as possible for all).
All that to say that I am not surprised to hear that young girls are not attracted to RPGs like boys are, even if the game itself can appeal to all.
We can enjoy RPGs as well as boys do. I think it's marketing more than anything. If you told people it's an interactive novel played by a group of friends I think you would have just as many girls as boys signing up to play. But marketing it as GI Joe with swords isn't very appealing to anyone except adolescent boys.
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We can enjoy RPGs as well as boys do. I think it's marketing more than anything. If you told people it's an interactive novel played by a group of friends I think you would have just as many girls as boys signing up to play. But marketing it as GI Joe with swords isn't very appealing to anyone except adolescent boys.
Honestly I kind of blame D&D for this one...
I mean with a name like "Dungeons and Dragons" it kinda does not scream "awesome interactive role playing" as more "boys being boys and liking boy things..."
Pathfinder has a much more neutral sounding name, which helps a lot and lets people get interested without the initial off put of a name like "Dungeons and Dragons"
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It's really weird to me this whole "RPGs are for girls too" argument.
I really wonder if that is such a strange thing.
I have my D&d red box since I was 7.
The second person I ever invited to play was a girl.
I was part of a club about rpgs, comics and videogames and there have never been a shortage of girls.
It's so weird to hear that to some people is somewhat unexpected, because it's so common in my experience that is not even debatable.
I agree, I always find it a little odd given my experience with role playing. When I started with my first long-time group in the late 70s there were two ladies present that pretty much drove the game in fact, the main PCs. When I went to college in the 80s several women played in our various games, and later at another college, this one primarily female, the majority of those I ran games for were women.
From talks with my wife about her friends at work and at school, they were all heavily into fantasy/scifi books and had at least played once or were neutral/positive about RPGs in general.
We can enjoy RPGs as well as boys do. I think it's marketing more than anything. If you told people it's an interactive novel played by a group of friends I think you would have just as many girls as boys signing up to play. But marketing it as GI Joe with swords isn't very appealing to anyone except adolescent boys.
Can't agree more, but the thing is, we ARE making it GI Joe with sword. The covers of most RPG books points to that. The way RPGs are publicized points to that. Half the threads on these boards points to that. The feel when a girl approach a bunch of boys playing RPGs points to that. To a great extents, the culture of RPGs points to that. As an adult, you obviously have been able to see past that, but the documentary was about pre adolescent girls and boys.
I've been advocating what you said for years, sometimes with more success than others, but much of what people experience when approached for the first time about RPGs is mostly GI Joe with swords. These are not only my impressions, but that of those that I try to bring into the RPG world. And these are not necessarily female either.
As a woman who started playing with the red box, I know there are plenty of women who do enjoy gaming. High school was the hardest time for me as a gamer. I could not get an invite to a game. I'd float by the table in the library where the boys were playing, and try to start a game related conversation. They'd answer, but never took a hint.
Luckily I met my husband in college as he was DMing a long home brew 2nd edition campaign. There were as many women as men in our ten-player party. We honeymooned at GenCon.
I'm running Mummy's Mask right now for a group with my husband, two sons, and two new players--both adult women. They mentioned WoW in conversation one day, so I told them about Pathfinder. Sometimes all it takes is an invite to the table.
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I think kids will want to do what their parents do and younger siblings will want to do what older siblings do.
Both of my daughters 11 and 6 like to play D&D (really Swords and Wiz) with me. They have watched me play with my Pathfinder group (which did include girls for many years although not currently) since they were little and I know if I were to ask them if they wanted to play Pathfinder they would both jump at the chance.
There is nothing inherently about girls or rpgs that keeps the two apart.
^^^
Well you see, the problem lies in PERCEPTION and MARKETING.
WotC and D&D are easily some of the worst offenders regarding this...
First, consider the name? Dungeons and Dragons... not very invocative of anything other than dragons and big scarey dungeons and macho men saving the damsel in distress. So that right there is a big strike.
Second, Artwork. Much of the artwork is very dark and gritty in the older D&D systems. This also tends to attract boys (because it looks "manly" and "cool") but tends to turn off many girls.
Third, group game play. Many younger kinds are usually more ROLLplayers than ROLEplayers (well at least boys are). Not to say all are, but many young boys create very basic stories (that have probably been repeated ad nasuem) to live out their fantasies as the epic knight who fights the dragon or the all powerful wizard who blows away his enemies with eldritch might! Additionally, many boys tend to find more excitement in the roll of the dice and the feeling chance and the excitement from getting awesome hihg rolls or going "AW!!! Shoot, I rolled a 2 "*everyone else laughs here*. Girls though, are naturally drawn more towards empathy and character development and (this is generaly speaking) care less about mechanics. This is why many games that have very simplistic mechanics but in depth discussion on the LIVES of the characters tend to be very popular with girls (games like the Sims are a hit among females but pretty much a flop among males. Additionally, many studies have shown that in games like MMORPGs, females tend to RP more and focus more on CHARACTER development and back story and such were as many boys tend to focus on "Increasing my DPS so I can go into the Arena!"
Again this is mainly for tryning to get new girls into the game. Girls who have grown up with it are a bit of a different case.
DISCLAIMER: In case you could not tell, I used to be a Simulation and Game Development Major before I switched to Psychiatry xD...
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I think kids will want to do what their parents do and younger siblings will want to do what older siblings do.
This I think is huge. When I am at the FLGS I notice that the adult women make up about 1 in 10 of the patrons. Though when it comes to kids/teens the mix gets much better more like 3 in 10 are girls a welcome trend. Anecdotal so take with a grain of salt but an interesting observation none the less.
There is nothing inherently about girls or rpgs that keeps the two apart.
No one is saying otherwise. As a matter of fact that was the point of the documentary.
But that isn't necessarily the perception that people have of RPGs, and that too was a point of the documentary. Roleplayers often ignore this because a) they are female and they are playing already or b) they have female players around their table.
Much of RPGs' marketing is aimed at boys, even if it is done unconsciously. Fantasy RPGs are not only about being bad ass and killing dragons, but that's often the first image you'll see when picking up a RPG book. That's usually what you hear boys bragging about in the schoolyard. That's what the mass imagine roleplayers are doing.
Can girls enjoy being bad ass and killing dragons? Off course they can. Is there anything wrong about girls enjoying being bad ass killing dragons? Off course not. Is it wrong for us to encourage girls to be bad ass and kill dragons? That's debatable, but it can't be worse than for boys anyhow. Will being bad ass killing dragons attract more young boys than girls? I do think so, especially at that age.
That's why I'm not surprised about the fact that RPGs are perceived by the mass as a boy's game.
I think kids will want to do what their parents do and younger siblings will want to do what older siblings do.
Don't forget peer pressure, or at least the influence of friends, in one direction or another.
I've been a camp counselor for a few years, and I used to play D&D with my groups of kids (11-12 years old). I had groups of boys, groups of girls and mixed groups depending on the year. I'd say that with boys, 80% of them had a genuine interest in the game, and 20% were there just to be with their friend. Some of these tag-alongs ended-up enjoying the game, some didn't.
With girls it was almost the other way around; 20% had a real interest, and 80% were there to be with their friend. Again, some ended-up adopting the game, some dropped. Yet most of them wouldn't have tried the game otherwise.
*sad Trombone*
Cute video. I liked it.
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As the father of a 9 year old girl who digs MLP, Harry Potter and How to Train Your Dragon, I find this inspiring.
My daughter has played the Pathfinder Beginner Box adventure with me & her uncles - she really enjoyed it. I've been trying to set up a group with her like-minded, imaginative school friends. The barrier I've run into when discussing the option with other parents is basically the art in the Pathfinder rule books (even the Beginners Box) and how it portrays female characters. I haven't figured how to get around this, so I’ve stopped trying with the parent community here.
Overall, I think the hobby is maturing, and the art is less objectifying than it used to be. But based on my experience, when it comes to accessibility there’s still a ways to go, even though it's true that ‘pre-teen girls’ is not a top demographic group for Pathfinder!
Having said that, there's probably never been a time when girls have been more primed for fantasy RPGs. In addition to MLP: FIM, it was a refreshing surprise to see that there were as more girls in the audience than boys when we went to see How to Train Your Dragon Live.
How to Train Your Dragon 2 could be an amazing PF movie. All of Hiccup's adventuring equipment... so very cool. My wife and I nerded out a bit at it. :)
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How to Train Your Dragon 2 could be an amazing PF movie. All of Hiccup's adventuring equipment... so very cool. My wife and I nerded out a bit at it. :)
Totally agree! I have a 5 year old son too who loves HTTYD (mostly because his big sister does). I've created a kind of adlib game I call 'Dragon Strike' for both kids using a Paizo flip mat, a Mage Knight castle, some D&D mini's, the Toothless, Stormfly, Hookfang & Barf/Belch drink toppers the kids got when they saw the movie (twice) - and use the WotC Gargantuan White Dragon as an alpha. The kids have to get their dragons back under control and defeat the Alpha before Drago conquers Berk.
As a parent, I also love how HTTYD2 shows the maturing relationship between Hiccup and Astrid.
One option I've been considering for my daughter is Pathfinder Society - although I'd want to find a play situation where she isn't the only kid. We've been brainstorming character ideas. She's told me she wants her character to be like Astrid, but she also wants a dragon. Since we'd be playing together, I was thinking maybe I could create a summoner character with a dragon-like eidolon, while we come up with something fast and strong (maybe a barbarian) for Astrid with ranks in fly.
That's so awesome!
I've been thinking of a table top or PbP HTTYD-inspired game revolving around eidolon/Wyverns (or unfettered Eidolon's with half-dragon templates) or something, myself.
And yes, 2 is an even better film than 1, to me, because it shows people still being themselves, but also growing up/maturing: something that's incredibly hard to do.