Hunter Thread


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I didn't see a dedicated hunter thread so I figured I would start one for the black sheep of the ACG.

I use this label of course not to describe a bad class but one that is highly misunderstood and underrated. This class looks like it has incredible potential for a melee, ranged or perhaps even dedicated casting role. Admittedly, I didn't pass level two but I'd like to think that I got a good overall feel for the class.

I ran one yesterday for the first time as an archer. Here are my thoughts.

Animal companion: I lucked out as a half orc; The favored class option of giving hit points to the animal companion synergized seamlessly with my plan to hold back and shoot, letting the beastie tank. The addition of precise companion and animal focus took my pet to the next level. Having the best animal companion in the game is an incredible boon.

Spells: Level one spells are level one spells. But I did get some good utility out of entangle and magic fang. Looking at the spell list, I got the sense that it was potentially viable to focus mostly on spellcasting, which will only add to the diversity of the class.

Archery: Animal focus buffing dexterity made up for my 0 BAB at level one. Better yet, it gave me HP when I was cornered and stealth when I needed to sneak around unnoticed. The usefulness of this ability and sheer volume of uses per fay blew me away.

An interesting archetype:

While I played without an archetype, I got DM permission to retroactively change to a verminous hunter, which is quickly becoming my favorite archetype in the game. The archetype solves an old problem: Making a character with a vermin companion viable. Interestingly enough, the vermin companion is still a relatively inferior option to an animal. The archetype just seems so good that it balances out being forced to take one, therefore allowing it to be viable.

I find that some of the vermin focus abilities that replace animal focus are great. You loose the ability to beef up your companion's constitution, but you gain the novel options of natural armor bonus and the always coveted fast healing ability. Although loosing some of the more practical animal focus abilities does hurt. (OW! I literally just noticed that vermin focus has no substitute for a bonus to dexterity. This is probably the death knell of my archer concept).

Anyway feel free to comment, argue or disagree. Has anyone else tried out this class?


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Zolanoteph wrote:

I didn't see a dedicated hunter thread so I figured I would start one for the black sheep of the ACG.

There's a little gem written under Animal Companion (Ex) that could make the Hunter really powerful. Here is the part I'm referring to:

A hunter may teach her companion hunter’s
tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype (Pathfinder
RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 128) instead of standard tricks.

I want people's thoughts on whether these tricks can be chosen from 1st level.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Yep, by the rules it certainly looks like they can. They also appear to be learned as handle animal tricks, so no daily limit. If so, the Hunter goes from strong to crazy good.

I whipped up a build while reading through the first time that foought with a glaive-guisarme and and a big cat. If the Hunter had lead blades up he could reliably deal 2d8+7+1d6 a round, with up to a +10 to hit by level 3. None of which includes the damage from his big cat companion.


Ssalarn wrote:

Yep, by the rules it certainly looks like they can. They also appear to be learned as handle animal tricks, so no daily limit. If so, the Hunter goes from strong to crazy good.

I wonder how these skirmisher tricks are applied? Most start out by stating "The Ranger can..."

Paizo Employee Design Manager

c873788 wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:

Yep, by the rules it certainly looks like they can. They also appear to be learned as handle animal tricks, so no daily limit. If so, the Hunter goes from strong to crazy good.

I wonder how these skirmisher tricks are applied? Most start out by stating "The Ranger can..."

The AnC is "the Ranger" for the purposes of the ability. That being said, the list of tricks he can actually use is only like half of the total list since some would require him to have his own AnC, and some of them proc off abilities he doesn't have. I think the best two for a melee pet to learn are Tangling Strike and Aiding Attack. Also, remember that there's a lot of normal tricks your AnC really needs to have, so you don't want to neglect those.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How many tricks can a hunter, or for that matter a ranger or druid, can apply?

Liberty's Edge

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I'd also note Surprise Shift as excellent. Especially given how much flanking benefits a melee Hunter.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

LazarX wrote:
How many tricks can a hunter, or for that matter a ranger or druid, can apply?

3 per point of the companion's Int, plus a bonus trick at 1st level and every 2-3 levels thereafter. And a combat pet needs to know the basic Attack trick twice so it will go after undead, aberrations, etc.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ssalarn wrote:
LazarX wrote:
How many tricks can a hunter, or for that matter a ranger or druid, can apply?
3 per point of the companion's Int, plus a bonus trick at 1st level and every 2-3 levels thereafter.

ooh.

*scurries back to his updated Herolab*

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Deadmanwalking wrote:
I'd also note Surprise Shift as excellent. Especially given how much flanking benefits a melee Hunter.

I was thinking you'd probably just teach it the Flank trick from Animal Archive, but that is a really good option as well.

Liberty's Edge

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Ssalarn wrote:
LazarX wrote:
How many tricks can a hunter, or for that matter a ranger or druid, can apply?
3 per point of the companion's Int, plus a bonus trick at 1st level and every 2-3 levels thereafter.

Hunters also gain an additional 3 Tricks. All of this totals at 10 + 3*Int but that's at 19th level. At 1st, you've probably got a flat 7 Tricks to play with.


Ssalarn wrote:
The AnC is "the Ranger" for the purposes of the ability. That being said, the list of tricks he can actually use is only like half of the total list since some would require him to have his own AnC, and some of them proc off abilities he doesn't have. I think the best two for a melee pet to learn are Tangling Strike and Aiding Attack. Also, remember that there's a lot of normal tricks your AnC really needs to have, so you don't want to neglect those.

That's good to know. I think Rattling Strike is also very potent.

I have seen some other threads where the Hunter is rated very poorly compared to the other new classes. In fact it is rated the lowest by some. I think this class is surprisingly powerful.

Liberty's Edge

c873788 wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
The AnC is "the Ranger" for the purposes of the ability. That being said, the list of tricks he can actually use is only like half of the total list since some would require him to have his own AnC, and some of them proc off abilities he doesn't have. I think the best two for a melee pet to learn are Tangling Strike and Aiding Attack. Also, remember that there's a lot of normal tricks your AnC really needs to have, so you don't want to neglect those.

That's good to know. I think Rattling Strike is also very potent.

I have seen some other threads where the Hunter is rated very poorly compared to the other new classes. In fact it is rated the lowest by some. I think this class is surprisingly powerful.

Most of that is from before the book came out...the playtest version was a lot weaker.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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c873788 wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
The AnC is "the Ranger" for the purposes of the ability. That being said, the list of tricks he can actually use is only like half of the total list since some would require him to have his own AnC, and some of them proc off abilities he doesn't have. I think the best two for a melee pet to learn are Tangling Strike and Aiding Attack. Also, remember that there's a lot of normal tricks your AnC really needs to have, so you don't want to neglect those.

That's good to know. I think Rattling Strike is also very potent.

I have seen some other threads where the Hunter is rated very poorly compared to the other new classes. In fact it is rated the lowest by some. I think this class is surprisingly powerful.

I think people will start seeing that this is really the surprise powerhouse once it actually gets a bit more table time. Currently, I think it's flat out stronger than the Slayer and Investigator, and probably gives the Ranger a run for his money in combat with greater total utility. It's hard to compare anything to a full caster, but during the first 10 levels of play I think the Hunter is a match for just about any class.

Liberty's Edge

Ssalarn wrote:
I think people will start seeing that this is really the surprise powerhouse once it actually gets a bit more table time.

This I'll definitely agree with.

Ssalarn wrote:
Currently, I think it's flat out stronger than the Slayer and Investigator, and probably gives the Ranger a run for his money in combat with greater total utility.

But this I'm not sure about. Investigator is pretty scary with Studied Combat and all the buffs on their Extract list (plus being unambiguously better out of combat), and Slayer is obviously gonna fall behind most casters to some degree, but it's no further behind Hunter than it is behind any other 6 level caster.

Ssalarn wrote:
It's hard to compare anything to a full caster, but during the first 10 levels of play I think the Hunter is a match for just about any class.

I'm not sure I'd go that far (basically due to full casters), but it's certainly shaping up to be quite solid.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ssalarn wrote:
c873788 wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
The AnC is "the Ranger" for the purposes of the ability. That being said, the list of tricks he can actually use is only like half of the total list since some would require him to have his own AnC, and some of them proc off abilities he doesn't have. I think the best two for a melee pet to learn are Tangling Strike and Aiding Attack. Also, remember that there's a lot of normal tricks your AnC really needs to have, so you don't want to neglect those.

That's good to know. I think Rattling Strike is also very potent.

I have seen some other threads where the Hunter is rated very poorly compared to the other new classes. In fact it is rated the lowest by some. I think this class is surprisingly powerful.

I think people will start seeing that this is really the surprise powerhouse once it actually gets a bit more table time. Currently, I think it's flat out stronger than the Slayer and Investigator, and probably gives the Ranger a run for his money in combat with greater total utility. It's hard to compare anything to a full caster, but during the first 10 levels of play I think the Hunter is a match for just about any class.

The Ranger will make a flat out better archer or meleer, and with a one feat investment, his animal companion will be just as good as the Hunter's. Now with a consistent group, there actually is incentive for more people to take an occasional teamwork feat as well.

I don't think either obsoletes the other, they represent different paths, and I look forward to using them both.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

LazarX wrote:


The Ranger will make a flat out better archer or meleer, and with a one feat investment, his animal companion will be just as good as the Hunter's.

This is actually demonstrably untrue (unless there's a new feat I've overlooked). Boon Companion won't give the Ranger's animal companion the ability to utilize all of his Teamwork feats, and it won't give it the ability to basically graft the equivalent of unlimited Ranger spellcasting directly onto the pet. The Ranger also has a vastly more limited list of pets to choose from, while the Hunter gets the full druid list. During the first 5 levels of play in particular, the Hunter has the capacity to be much, much stronger in melee combat than the Ranger, and has unique archery options unavailable to most Ranger builds as well, like 1st level flight via the Roc and Undersized Mount.

Dark Archive

It seems to be a very complicated class, thus analysis is tricky, but people seem to be coming around.

For solo play or small parties or below 10th it will prove one of the best.


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I was shocked that none of the people with early access to the ACG mentioned the Skirmisher tricks. This vastly increases the power and utility of the hunter's animal companion. It seems to be unlimited use per day, but even if that ends up not being the case, this is still a pretty powerful boost to the previously subpar hunter class. With outflank and aiding attack that is a solid +6 to hit at low levels. A mid level Hunter can start to utilize paired opportunist and outflank/broken wing gambit to rack up AoOs, and many of the animal companions skirmisher tricks are free actions, meaning (per GM discretion for free actions) you could stack on some nasty side effects. The hunter was originally billed as an archer with a pet, but I think the final changes put this class into the melee powerhouse category. The downsides I can see are of course the 3/4 BAB limiting access to good combat feats, and the 3/4 casting is pretty useless for summon natures ally, even though they get that spell for free. I think at higher levels the hunter will suffer due to these limitations, but at low to mid levels I think it is going to be a force to be reckoned with. Can't wait until finals are over to actually try one out and see if I'm right.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

ToxicNecrochris wrote:
I was shocked that none of the people with early access to the ACG mentioned the Skirmisher tricks. This vastly increases the power and utility of the hunter's animal companion. It seems to be unlimited use per day, but even if that ends up not being the case, this is still a pretty powerful boost to the previously subpar hunter class. With outflank and aiding attack that is a solid +6 to hit at low levels. A mid level Hunter can start to utilize paired opportunist and outflank/broken wing gambit to rack up AoOs, and many of the animal companions skirmisher tricks are free actions, meaning (per GM discretion for free actions) you could stack on some nasty side effects. The hunter was originally billed as an archer with a pet, but I think the final changes put this class into the melee powerhouse category. The downsides I can see are of course the 3/4 BAB limiting access to good combat feats, and the 3/4 casting is pretty useless for summon natures ally, even though they get that spell for free. I think at higher levels the hunter will suffer due to these limitations, but at low to mid levels I think it is going to be a force to be reckoned with. Can't wait until finals are over to actually try one out and see if I'm right.

This has been my analysis so far as well. The class probably hits its peak around 15th level (like most non-full casters), but during the "PFS levels", it can be a real monster of a melee powerhouse. Stick a reach weapon in its hands, grab a few key skirmisher tricks for your pet, and watch the blood fly. He's also got great skill capability and can stand in as skill-monkey as well as a Ranger (which is pretty damn good), and his 3/4 casting and combo spell list means there's a lot of other areas he can help pick up the slack as well.


Ssalarn wrote:
ToxicNecrochris wrote:
I was shocked that none of the people with early access to the ACG mentioned the Skirmisher tricks. This vastly increases the power and utility of the hunter's animal companion. It seems to be unlimited use per day, but even if that ends up not being the case, this is still a pretty powerful boost to the previously subpar hunter class. With outflank and aiding attack that is a solid +6 to hit at low levels. A mid level Hunter can start to utilize paired opportunist and outflank/broken wing gambit to rack up AoOs, and many of the animal companions skirmisher tricks are free actions, meaning (per GM discretion for free actions) you could stack on some nasty side effects. The hunter was originally billed as an archer with a pet, but I think the final changes put this class into the melee powerhouse category. The downsides I can see are of course the 3/4 BAB limiting access to good combat feats, and the 3/4 casting is pretty useless for summon natures ally, even though they get that spell for free. I think at higher levels the hunter will suffer due to these limitations, but at low to mid levels I think it is going to be a force to be reckoned with. Can't wait until finals are over to actually try one out and see if I'm right.
This has been my analysis so far as well. The class probably hits its peak around 15th level (like most non-full casters), but during the "PFS levels", it can be a real monster of a melee powerhouse. Stick a reach weapon in its hands, grab a few key skirmisher tricks for your pet, and watch the blood fly. He's also got great skill capability and can stand in as skill-monkey as well as a Ranger (which is pretty damn good), and his 3/4 casting and combo spell list means there's a lot of other areas he can help pick up the slack as well.

Yeah, I'm thinking half-elf with a fauchard for reach and crit (synergizes with outflank). With some tripping feats I think this could be an AoO master.


Now I am legitmately curious as to who takes the pet champ crown...

Paizo Employee Design Manager

K177Y C47 wrote:
Now I am legitmately curious as to who takes the pet champ crown...

Ranger- Pet at level -3 from limited list which does not include any of the most powerful pets. Biggest selling point: Pet shares Favored Enemy/Terrain bonuses.

Druid- Full progression pet from all AnC options. Few add-ons, but a spell list that supports it well. This is kind of the "baseline".

Hunter- Full progression pet from all AnC options that shares all of its master's Teamwork Feats, gets a permanent buff via Animal Focus. Biggest selling point: learns Skirmisher tricks as handle animal tricks, giving it a type of unlimited pseudo control/buffing abilities.

The Hunter's pet is hands down the best of the three. The druid probably still pulls ahead as levels go up and his spell-casting edge increases and his Wildshape ability pushes his direct combat contributions that extra step, but the Hunter's actual pet will probably always be better.


The pet champ crown still goes to the summoner, as ever.

The addition of skirmisher tricks to the Hunter is a massive buff and actually makes me excited to play the class. I also can't imagine there's meant to be a limit, because if we go by the archetype text, the companion has no ranger level and a tiny/nonexistent wisdom modifier. I wonder whether hunter levels stack with other animal companion levels like usual, because I could see a lot of people dipping one level into hunter for those sweet skirmisher tricks on their companion.

I've heard a rumor going around that it's possible to have a huge sized animal companion with an archetype, which would be awesome... it's another thing that never sat well me that the summoner can have a massive companion but the druid can't.


Ssalarn wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Now I am legitmately curious as to who takes the pet champ crown...

Ranger- Pet at level -3 from limited list which does not include any of the most powerful pets. Biggest selling point: Pet shares Favored Enemy/Terrain bonuses.

Druid- Full progression pet from all AnC options. Few add-ons, but a spell list that supports it well. This is kind of the "baseline".

Hunter- Full progression pet from all AnC options that shares all of its master's Teamwork Feats, gets a permanent buff via Animal Focus. Biggest selling point: learns Skirmisher tricks as handle animal tricks, giving it a type of unlimited pseudo control/buffing abilities.

The Hunter's pet is hands down the best of the three. The druid probably still pulls ahead as levels go up and his spell-casting edge increases and his Wildshape ability pushes his direct combat contributions that extra step, but the Hunter's actual pet will probably always be better.

I am wondering what woudl happen if we added in the summoner (base not master or synthesist) and maybe the Nature Shaman (their Familiar becomes a familair/Animal companion hybrid) into the race...

I feel liek the Nature Shaman may be a little better than the base druid (Now your Fairy Dragon gains all the benefits of being an Animal Companion of its level AND all the benefits of being a familiar at its level), and I am curious about the summoner... While Eidolon may be a bit stronger, the Summoner+Eidolon have less synergy than the Hunter+AnC in combat.


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Stark_ wrote:

The pet champ crown still goes to the summoner, as ever.

The addition of skirmisher tricks to the Hunter is a massive buff and actually makes me excited to play the class. I also can't imagine there's meant to be a limit, because if we go by the archetype text, the companion has no ranger level and a tiny/nonexistent wisdom modifier. I wonder whether hunter levels stack with other animal companion levels like usual, because I could see a lot of people dipping one level into hunter for those sweet skirmisher tricks on their companion.

I've heard a rumor going around that it's possible to have a huge sized animal companion with an archetype, which would be awesome... it's another thing that never sat well me that the summoner can have a massive companion but the druid can't.

Well if you take the Prestige class Mammoth Rider your AnC becomes huge sized at the first level. So just take a 1 level dip and have fun...

Oh! And if you wanna have a real huge amount of fun, grab a constrictor snake AnC, go into Mammoth Rider, and grab the constricting feats (something horror... forgot the name). Being huge grants ALOT of bonus to CMB... yoru snake will pretty much lock anything down xD.


Stark_ wrote:

The pet champ crown still goes to the summoner, as ever.

The addition of skirmisher tricks to the Hunter is a massive buff and actually makes me excited to play the class. I also can't imagine there's meant to be a limit, because if we go by the archetype text, the companion has no ranger level and a tiny/nonexistent wisdom modifier. I wonder whether hunter levels stack with other animal companion levels like usual, because I could see a lot of people dipping one level into hunter for those sweet skirmisher tricks on their companion.

I've heard a rumor going around that it's possible to have a huge sized animal companion with an archetype, which would be awesome... it's another thing that never sat well me that the summoner can have a massive companion but the druid can't.

The primal hunter trades animal focus for an evolution pool like the summoner...so that's probably what people are referring to to make their companions huge.

Sovereign Court

Going to try to play a Feral Hunter (the archetype without the pet) and sees how that goes.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ToxicNecrochris wrote:
Stark_ wrote:

The pet champ crown still goes to the summoner, as ever.

The addition of skirmisher tricks to the Hunter is a massive buff and actually makes me excited to play the class. I also can't imagine there's meant to be a limit, because if we go by the archetype text, the companion has no ranger level and a tiny/nonexistent wisdom modifier. I wonder whether hunter levels stack with other animal companion levels like usual, because I could see a lot of people dipping one level into hunter for those sweet skirmisher tricks on their companion.

I've heard a rumor going around that it's possible to have a huge sized animal companion with an archetype, which would be awesome... it's another thing that never sat well me that the summoner can have a massive companion but the druid can't.

The primal hunter trades animal focus for an evolution pool like the summoner...so that's probably what people are referring to to make their companions huge.

Unlike the summoner though the evolution effects are limited to minute/level/day. operating much like the animal focus mechanic. Which means the Hunter loses out on the personal benefits of animal focus as well.

Dark Archive

Anyone tried Hunter/Mammoth Rider yet?

What is the silliest giant pet/mount? Buffed T Rex with all the Skirmisher moves?

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Captain K. wrote:

Anyone tried Hunter/Mammoth Rider yet?

What is the silliest giant pet/mount? Buffed T Rex with all the Skirmisher moves?

The image of a giant T-Rex using Surprise Shift to scuttle into flanking position makes me smile.

I'd think the big cat would be stronger overall.


Captain K. wrote:

Anyone tried Hunter/Mammoth Rider yet?

What is the silliest giant pet/mount? Buffed T Rex with all the Skirmisher moves?

actually yes, I played a Hunter with a huge Cosntricter snake AnC and the Final Embrace (thats the name of the feats!) line... that got funny.


Captain K. wrote:

It seems to be a very complicated class, thus analysis is tricky, but people seem to be coming around.

For solo play or small parties or below 10th it will prove one of the best.

Yup. A lot of front loaded power in the class. Eventually the BAB scaling and lack of syngery with the high level druid spell list will weaken the class considerably. But as mentioned above, the Hunter will probably fall behind the power curve around the same time as the true martials anyways.

The AcP having unlimited uses of skirmisher tricks is really, really powerful. Enough so that I doubt that was the intention. It's worth noting that while many animals don't have a positive wisdom score, some (notably wolves) do and would have multiple uses a day of those abilities should they follow the math presented in the skirmisher archetype.


I looked for this thread because it personally felt to me that the Hunter class just wasn't very good. It seems to me that both the Druid and the Ranger are superior options. Upon reading your posts, though, you guys see a lot more potential in it than I do. Maybe I'm missing something...

Anyway, here's my breakdown of the class by comparison to the most relevant classes:

TL;DR: The Hunter class gives up too many of the key abilities of it's parent classes and only seems to gain a stronger Animal Companion in return. This doesn't seem to be enough to compensate, but perhaps I'm missing something.

Druid
- Gains: Teamwork feats, more stuff for the animal companion, Animal Focus (which applies to both you and your animal companion), Tracking, spontaneous casting
- Loses: Wild Shape, full spell progression, full access to spell list

Basically you give up the best features of the druid, Wild Shape and full caster progression, to make your animal companion stronger. Animal Focus is a poor substitute for Wild Shape since all you gain are mechanical bonuses. You lose the ability to change size, gain flight and a ton of various useful abilities, like pounce, grab, trip. This is further exacerbated by the fact that the most useful bonuses of Animal Focus (bonuses to physical attributes) count as enhancement bonuses, which means they don't stack with magic belts. Yes, it saves you money, but the fact that they don't stack ultimately makes them far less useful. And as far as spells go, gaining spontaneous casting far from makes up for the loss of full spell progression and full access to their spell list. The fact that you gain bonuses to Tracking is hurt by the fact that you will be treating WIS as a secondary attribute. A caster Druid will likely be able to track nearly as well as the Hunter, anyway (though without the ability to swift track). The only real gain seems to be a slightly stronger animal companion with whom you share your Teamwork Feats, most of which have been quite lackluster from what I've seen. Maybe there are more Teamwork Feats in this book (I haven't had a chance to look at the Feats thoroughly), but I remember looking at the list when I played an Inquisitor and there were only 2 or so feats that seemed worth getting to me.

Ranger
- Gains: Teamwork feats, significantly stronger animal companion, Animal Focus, better spell progression, spontaneous casting
- Loses: d10 Hit Die, full BAB, Combat Style Feats, Favored Enemy, Favored Terrain

Once again you are giving up the best features of the original class. The Hunter is clearly a combat rather than caster class, so the loss of the d10 Hit Die, full BAB, and Combat Style Feats is a major blow. Animal Focus makes up for the lower Hit Die and BAB progression a bit, but like I said, the fact that the bonuses are enhancement bonuses means you could achieve the same with belts or spells that are already on the druid list. Also as previously stated, Teamwork feats have been lackluster, and they are a poor substitution for Combat Style Feats. The loss of Favored Terrain is a small detriment, but the loss of Favored Enemy is major. Favored Enemy is the chief means through which a ranger is able to push his damage potential, and the Hunter received nothing really to counter this loss to damage. The animal companion is significantly stronger, but just a single feat, Boon Companion, is enough to make a ranger's companion catch up quite a large amount. It will never catch up fully, I understand this, but I don't believe it falls so dramatically far behind that the Hunter's Animal Companion is enough to make up for all that difference. The main draw here seems to be the better spell progression. However, the druid list of spells is more oriented towards control and debuffs rather than self-buffs, which are usually the bread and butter of medium BAB, medium spell progression classes. Those that they do have seem to overlap with Animal Focus, and they largely don't stack. Since control and debuffs rely on spell DC, the medium spell progression hurts the effectiveness of using those spells.

Inquisitor

I've included the Inquisitor here because it is one of the most similar classes to the Hunter in overall design. They both have medium BAB and medium spell progression, and they're clearly meant to be more combat oriented than spell. However, the Inquisitor's Judgment and Bane abilities are far superior to the Hunter's Animal Focus. This is attributed in large part to the fact that Judgment and Bane tend to stack with nearly everything. That and Bane is simply outright better than anything the Hunter has to offer. They also both gain access to a lot of Teamwork Feats, however, the Inquisitor may treat any ally as having the Teamwork Feat for the sake of using it himself. The Hunter can only use them in combination with his animal companion. Granted, the animal companion also actually gains the feat, but this bonus only evens out with the loss of flexibility. The Inquisitor spell list is also packed with self-buffs, which are the most useful type for these types of classes. The Inquisitor is capable of some insanely high damage potential given enough time to self-buff. The Hunter simply does not seem capable of keeping up with that kind of damage potential. It instead relies on the Animal Companion to make up for this. Unfortunately, most Animal Companions are not terribly useful in that regard, unless you are specifically going for the Big Cat (granted the Big Cat is terrific at this).

Summoner

I personally don't know too much about the Summoner class, as I've never played it. But from what I've seen, the Summoner is still by far the superior option for a pet class. Not only is it's main pet option clearly superior to the Animal Companion, but it has access to the full spectrum of Summon Monster spells, where the Hunter is still limited by his limited spell progression. Of course, the Summoner feels a bit more like a caster class that relies more heavily on it's pets than a combat class, the way the Hunter feels, so that may be an unfair comparison. However, from what I've seen, the Animal Companion seems to be the main attraction of the Hunter, so I think a comparison is warranted.

Overall

Basically, what this class feels like is that you are looking for ways to optimize your Animal Companion rather than yourself. Unfortunately, historically there are a very limited number of options to help in that regard. As stated, I haven't had a chance to look through the whole book (the Hunter was the first thing that drew my attention), so I'll have to check more of the book to see if maybe they added a ton of support to make this more viable, but I don't think (I may be wrong) the Animal Companion has ever had the support to make it the primary part of any build design before. For the most part, it was simply a bonus ability to aid your PC. A very useful bonus ability, but still secondary to your others. Everything the Hunter tries to do, it feels like other classes can do them better, and it doesn't simply seem like it's a matter of this class is better at this portion, and this class is better at this portion. It feels that the other classes are simply better and the Hunter tries really hard to make up for those shortcomings by giving you the strongest version of the Animal Companion available to date, and I'm not sure it's enough. I don't see how you can build anywhere near as effective a character when the class's whole schtick seems to revolve around the Animal Companion rather than the character itself.

Of course, I hadn't realized the whole Skirmisher Tricks aspect of the Animal Companion at the time I first started reading this thread, but I'm of like mind to Pyralissa. I don't think it was meant to be able to use them at will. Considering the strict limitation the Ranger had in the number of uses, giving the Animal Companion unlimited use (and a fair number of those tricks count as free actions) seems like it may be broken good. If you treat the Animal Companion as having the same ranger level as your hunter level, the lower WIS of most Animal Companions would make this ability far less useful. In my mind, either this ability is too powerful, or not powerful enough to compensate for other shortcomings.

Like I said, maybe I'm just not aware of some additional options available in this book that help the Hunter specifically. Or perhaps I'm just drastically underestimating the value of the Hunter's Animal Companion. But the Ranger and the Druid are both amongst my favorite classes and some of my most commonly played characters, so I'm fairly familiar with them. Of course, I've never built my character around the idea of using the Animal Companion as a primary aspect of my character, so there's a good chance I am unaware of some things. I'm looking for any arguments to counter mine, or perhaps an explanation of why I'm thinking about it the wrong way with this class.

EDIT: minor grammatical fixes


Whats the downside to the Packmaster Archytpe? As far as I can tell if you chose to only have one AC it would be identical to the normal version.
Also boon companion could be used with the Packmaster archytpe, multiple times even. Sure it would drop in power late game, but early to mid having multiple near full strength animal companions that cooperate with each other for Teamwork benefits seems scary.

The animal companion feats look nice, Animal Soul, the Evolve one, and the Shaman one.

I kinda want to play the hunter because it actually gets to use teamwork feats without depending on anyone else, that's an advantage it has over other classes.


Don't forget "Eye for Talent: Humans have great intuition for hidden potential. They gain a +2 racial bonus on Sense Motive checks. In addition, when they acquire an animal companion, bonded mount, cohort, or familiar, that creature gains a +2 bonus to one ability score of the character's choice. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait." for +2 INT and another 6 tricks.


So I just had a look through the Hunter Tricks under the skirmisher archetype. If the Hunter's pet is able to fully utilize these, he could be really scary.

As free actions before each attack: Aiding Attack, Rattling Strike, Tangling Attack, Upending Strike. If the attack misses, immediate action second chance strike for reroll at -5. If it hits, the target is entangled (-4 to dex, -2 penalty to attack rolls, half speed), Shaken for 1d4 rounds (–2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks) and Prone ( -4 to melee attack rolls, -4 penalty to ac against melee).

In total, -8 to attack rolls, -6 to melee ac, -4 to reflex saves and the next attack against them gets a +2 from aiding attack. Seems pretty strong to me.


So here's what bothers me about the Hunter and maybe I'm missing something here...

Why would you not just use Sacred Huntsmaster archetype for Inquisitor from the same book? They get Animal Companion. They get bonus teamwork feats and can share them with the companion (and still maintain Solo Tactics too! In case you're separated from your animal companion). They get Animal Focus (albeit at a significantly slower rate to get double Animal Focus, but Animal Focus is really mediocre anyway). They get spells and, in fact, the Inquisitor's spell list is probably better for this because Improved Share Spell teamwork feat (which is looking pretty mandatory for this kind of style) means you want buffs that can affect both you AND your animal companion. But Sacred Huntsmaster also gets Domains and Bane and actually useful skill bonuses while Hunter gets a bonus feat and what looks like a bunch of fluff abilities, plus some bonus tricks that you probably don't need to learn?

Am I missing something here?

While we're on the topic, is Animal Focus just really mediocre to me alone? I don't understand why you wouldn't just take the Primal Companion archetype 9/10 times instead since you're saving SOME money, but not enough to overcome the ridiculousness that is an evolution pool for your companion.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Quote:


Why would you not just use Sacred Huntsmaster archetype for Inquisitor from the same book?

That seems to be a common theme in the book.

Also I feel like the spell progression is the big killer her: Most other 6th level spellcasters (everyone but the magus really) has a custom spell list, which means 8ths/9ths in their 6ths slot (hell this is one of the biggest complaints about the summoner).

the hunter is stuck with "real" 6th level casting since he uses the druid list for those last two levels..

Hilariously he doesn't even have a higher BAB than the druid. So he doesn't even really do that "better fighter / worse spellcaster" thing.

So it kinda comes down to 7-9th level spells vs teamwork feats. W

Not a terrible class in the end, but the comparisons make me wince.


Yeah, the Hunter isn't garbage, but I'm hard pressed to see anything I really want to do with him.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Hunter is one of the most adaptable characters out there.

Have a sudden need for Evasion, Darkvision, a faster run speed?, a boost to the physical attribute of your choice? Assume an animal focus and it's yours.


Stark_ wrote:


I've heard a rumor going around that it's possible to have a huge sized animal companion with an archetype, which would be awesome... it's another thing that never sat well me that the summoner can have a massive companion but the druid can't.

yep take divine hunter strength domain and choose a pet that get large upgrade at lvl 7 the true laugh is when you get to mythic and can get a gargantuan roc.

i have three ideas for a hunter i'm going to have to build

1. a roleplay melee divine hunter kitsune with a roc should probably be a archer but the character while not be optimized

2. a melee feral hunter: a Nagaji using lead blade on large bastard sword after lvl 3 for 3d8+5 with a +5 to hit. not sure what i'll do beyond lvl 3 yet.

3. a divine verminous hunter: a gnome with a wasp companion using the favored class option and skirmisher trick for a death pet.don't know which domain i'd take or what the gnome would be doing yet.


Or you can go Mammoth rider... not that hard to meet the pre-reqs... and with just a 1 level dip your Pet grows to huge and gets a +2 Str/Con....


LazarX wrote:

The Hunter is one of the most adaptable characters out there.

Have a sudden need for Evasion, Darkvision, a faster run speed?, a boost to the physical attribute of your choice? Assume an animal focus and it's yours.

I may be a bit spoiled by using Dreamscarred Press' Psionics books for so long. Plenty of powers you can manifest as a Swift for such purposes, or last a long time, there's the Aegis, etc.

Plus, it's only minute per level. My Inquisitor is rocking +30 movement speed from Expeditious Retreat (hour/level), Scent from Bloodhound (hour/level), Darkvision (Vampire, but available to nearly every race in the books), and yeah you get the picture.

The ones that grant movement speeds (I think there's ones for a Climb and Swim speed anyway, if not disregard this praise) and the one for Evasion are pretty rad though.


LazarX wrote:

The Hunter is one of the most adaptable characters out there.

Have a sudden need for Evasion, Darkvision, a faster run speed?, a boost to the physical attribute of your choice? Assume an animal focus and it's yours.

These are all great...at low level. Once you reach higher level, well, at least during combat, you're gonna have low level spells to burn to substitute and even if you're in pressing need, your equipment set is probably built in such a way that you're probably going to have one mode of Animal Focus and not really much to maneuver around in otherwise.

I LIKE the Hunter, but it is pretty damn mediocre.


jikl2001 wrote:

I looked for this thread because it personally felt to me that the Hunter class just wasn't very good. It seems to me that both the Druid and the Ranger are superior options. Upon reading your posts, though, you guys see a lot more potential in it than I do. Maybe I'm missing something...

I think you are missing a lot.

I have a 3rd level ranged focus hunter with PBS, Precise Strike and Rapid Shot. My tiger animal companion has dark vision, energy resistance 5 to cold, electricity and acid. My tiger has a 23AC without being boosted in any way and DR5/Adamantine.

Let's imagine he's attacking the enemy now. He gets 3 attacks and gets to roll twice for each attack and take the highest roll. Each attack he can use a free action to entangle for 1 round as well as the shaken condition for 1d4 rounds. There are no saves for this. The tiger just has to hit with one of his 2 rolls for each of his 3 attacks.

Next round my hunter shoots twice and let's assume hits once. Hitting that opponent with my arrow has now granted my tiger with +2 to hit and +2 damage against that opponent for the next hour.

This is all at 3rd level. Oh, and my tiger can smite once per day.

There are lots of hidden gems for the Hunter if you just know where to look.


K177Y C47 wrote:
Or you can go Mammoth rider... not that hard to meet the pre-reqs... and with just a 1 level dip your Pet grows to huge and gets a +2 Str/Con....

well that is awesome (hopefully my gm approves of my roc as my steed)

so we get a huge companion at lvl 7 a gargantuan at lvl 9 (I think correct me if i'm wrong) and colossal when we get to mythic.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
AncientSpark wrote:
LazarX wrote:

The Hunter is one of the most adaptable characters out there.

Have a sudden need for Evasion, Darkvision, a faster run speed?, a boost to the physical attribute of your choice? Assume an animal focus and it's yours.

These are all great...at low level. Once you reach higher level, well, at least during combat, you're gonna have low level spells to burn to substitute and even if you're in pressing need, your equipment set is probably built in such a way that you're probably going to have one mode of Animal Focus and not really much to maneuver around in otherwise.

I LIKE the Hunter, but it is pretty damn mediocre.

I've had a blast at playing the play test version up to 6th level so far in Dragons Demand. With the changes, the character is getting a whole lot better. Maybe we should actually have some people PLAY these characters through levels before predicting the gloom and doom?

Campaigns above 12th level are so idiosyncratic that I would take projections of high level performance with a healthy grain of salt.


LazarX wrote:
AncientSpark wrote:
LazarX wrote:

The Hunter is one of the most adaptable characters out there.

Have a sudden need for Evasion, Darkvision, a faster run speed?, a boost to the physical attribute of your choice? Assume an animal focus and it's yours.

These are all great...at low level. Once you reach higher level, well, at least during combat, you're gonna have low level spells to burn to substitute and even if you're in pressing need, your equipment set is probably built in such a way that you're probably going to have one mode of Animal Focus and not really much to maneuver around in otherwise.

I LIKE the Hunter, but it is pretty damn mediocre.

I've had a blast at playing the play test version up to 6th level so far. With the changes, the character is getting a whole lot better. Maybe we should actually have some people PLAY these characters through levels before predicting the gloom and doom?

Well, it's a matter of comparing them. Plus, the fact of the matter is that the quantity that you're trying to espouse about (the versatility of animal focus) was available all during Playtest. I USED it during Playtest. I know how it works.

Before I got the ACG, I was raising my sleeves ready to say how Hunter is usable. Now I'm basically going, again, "Why wouldn't you use Sacred Huntsmaster?" due to archetypes being not in playtest, but in release.


Rynjin wrote:


Plus, it's only minute per level. My Inquisitor is rocking +30 movement speed from Expeditious Retreat (hour/level), Scent from Bloodhound (hour/level), Darkvision (Vampire, but available to nearly every race in the books), and yeah you get the picture.

Just need to point this out, Expeditious Retreat is min/level. You'd want Longstrider for hour/level, but it's only +10 feet and Inquisitors don't get it.

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