I'm just curious if there's been talk of an epic level handbook lately. No need to bring up Mythic Adventures. I own it, love it, and use it. Just curious about epic right now.
I read on the srd that the suggested method in a pinch is to continue progression as it was in earlier levels. As it says, that would work fine for a few levels but would quickly become unbalanced.
Just start multiclassing at that point. It's how I'd do it.
No
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There is a need to bring up Mythic Adventures, since that was what Paizo wanted to do INSTEAD OF Epic levels, which they found unwieldy and nearly impossible to balance.
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I'm curious if it would work just to halt progression of BAB and saves all together. Let me explain, here are my ideas-
Continue giving feats and attribute points at the same progression, but allow those feats to be selected from an epic feat list.
Scrap post 20th level classes. Instead, use a generic class that anyone can take after level 20. Give it 1d10 hit die, 4 skill points, and a bonus epic feat every even level.
For multi-classers, grant the hit die, class features, and skill points of that class.
As for epic feats, they should probably be slightly more powerful than the power gained through the average multi-class level, and there would need to be a lot of them. Some of those feats should make up for the lack of class features in the epic class by granting spell slots beyond 9th level or granting extra dice of sneak attack damage and should have appropriate prerequisites, while others would be more independent.
I think this approach would be simple and well balanced. Your numbers wouldn't get as crazy and ridiculous but you would be able to continue gaining power and options.
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There is a need to bring up Mythic Adventures, since that was what Paizo wanted to do INSTEAD OF Epic levels, which they found unwieldy and nearly impossible to balance.
Obviously not. I admitted your response before you made it and then requested further discussion, so no, there was no need to bring it up.
I'm curious if it would work just to halt progression of BAB and saves all together. Let me explain, here are my ideas-
Continue giving feats and attribute points at the same progression, but allow those feats to be selected from an epic feat list.
Scrap post 20th level classes. Instead, use a generic class that anyone can take after level 20. Give it 1d10 hit die, 4 skill points, and a bonus epic feat every even level.
For multi-classers, grant the hit die, class features, and skill points of that class.
As for epic feats, they should probably be slightly more powerful than the power gained through the average multi-class level, and there would need to be a lot of them. Some of those feats should make up for the lack of class features in the epic class by granting spell slots beyond 9th level or granting extra dice of sneak attack damage and should have appropriate prerequisites, while others would be more independent.
I think this approach would be simple and well balanced. Your numbers wouldn't get as crazy and ridiculous but you would be able to continue gaining power and options.
Do whatever you and your group prefers. Me...I prefer ridiculous numbers, which is why we don't put limitations on the number of attacks and other things at higher levels.
In my opinion, epic is all about the crazy and ridiculous.
Another thing you could do is to have mythic be epic. Instead of having mythic levels come while going 1-20, have them start gaining mythic levels at 21 and so forth.
There is a need to bring up Mythic Adventures, since that was what Paizo wanted to do INSTEAD OF Epic levels, which they found unwieldy and nearly impossible to balance.Obviously not. I admitted your response before you made it and then requested further discussion, so no, there was no need to bring it up.
If you already knew that mythic was replacing epic, and Paizo had no plans to do epic then why did you ask about it?
edit:To my knowledge no 3pp is looking at it either, but that can always change.
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edit:To my knowledge no 3pp is looking at it either, but that can always change.
Little Red Goblin Games has Legendary Levels.
There is a need to bring up Mythic Adventures, since that was what Paizo wanted to do INSTEAD OF Epic levels, which they found unwieldy and nearly impossible to balance.Obviously not. I admitted your response before you made it and then requested further discussion, so no, there was no need to bring it up.If you already knew that mythic was replacing epic, and Paizo had no plans to do epic then why did you ask about it?
edit:To my knowledge no 3pp is looking at it either, but that can always change.
Because I stumbled upon an entry the other day here (bottom of the page, Beyond 20th Level) that stated "Paizo Publishing may eventually publish rules to take your game into these epic realms", so I was just curious if epic might still be on the table if a balanced approach could be found.
I figured maybe no one ever tried anything like I described above. Halting bab and save progression all together could make things way different.
And they did. Which was Mythic. Which is their replacement for Epic.
They printed that in the CRB. And they did "eventually" publish rules which they intended to take the place of Epic rules.
Which answers your question: Has there been talk of an epic level handbook? No, because Mythic was the replacement/equivalent for such a sub-system.
If what you were looking for was discussion about what might potentially make Epic rules work, then carry on. But the question you asked has been answered.
And they did. Which was Mythic. Which is their replacement for Epic.
They printed that in the CRB. And they did "eventually" publish rules which they intended to take the place of Epic rules.
Which answers your question: Has there been talk of an epic level handbook? No, because Mythic was the replacement/equivalent for such a sub-system.
If what you were looking for was discussion about what might potentially make Epic rules work, then carry on. But the question you asked has been answered.
it is not a replacement for epic. i asked that question when mythic was annouced. Jason stated it is not a replacement for mythic and did not preclude them from doing epic in future.
There is a need to bring up Mythic Adventures, since that was what Paizo wanted to do INSTEAD OF Epic levels, which they found unwieldy and nearly impossible to balance.Obviously not. I admitted your response before you made it and then requested further discussion, so no, there was no need to bring it up.If you already knew that mythic was replacing epic, and Paizo had no plans to do epic then why did you ask about it?
edit:To my knowledge no 3pp is looking at it either, but that can always change.
Because I stumbled upon an entry the other day here (bottom of the page, Beyond 20th Level) that stated "Paizo Publishing may eventually publish rules to take your game into these epic realms", so I was just curious if epic might still be on the table if a balanced approach could be found.
I figured maybe no one ever tried anything like I described above. Halting bab and save progression all together could make things way different.
That was there when they first started Pathfinder, but they moved beyond when the officially said they were making mythic, and actually created it. They just never removed the wording from the book.
And they did. Which was Mythic. Which is their replacement for Epic.
They printed that in the CRB. And they did "eventually" publish rules which they intended to take the place of Epic rules.
Which answers your question: Has there been talk of an epic level handbook? No, because Mythic was the replacement/equivalent for such a sub-system.
If what you were looking for was discussion about what might potentially make Epic rules work, then carry on. But the question you asked has been answered.
it is not a replacement for epic. i asked that question when mythic was annouced. Jason stated it is not a replacement for mythic and did not preclude them from doing epic in future.
Then their policy changed some time between announcement and release because I've seen them say it was their answer to Epic rules.
Does it preclude them from doing Epic in the future? No. But it's not on their agenda right now, just like Psionics isn't.
My problem with mythic is that, while it certainly adds more power, it doesn't really allow continued advancement like epic levels could. I'd like my players to have access to higher level spell slots and be able to multi-class while saving the mythic rules for when I think they have truly earned the right to walk as a demigod. That's why I suggested something similar to mythic rules with more of a class advancing spin. To me epic should be similar to mythic but be regulated by prerequisites, including level requirements. That way a rogue can get more dice on his sneak attack or a barbarian can increase his rage bonus, but not every single level.
Don't get me wrong, I love the mythic rules. I'd just like to allow my players to advance beyond 20th without being forced to give them access to things like mythic saves and mythic haste every time. Those things are awesome, but unchecked in power. I love the fact that there power is unchecked, but if it's the only option it becomes difficult. If we had working epic rules we could save them for special games or special encounters (more often the latter, mwa hahaha)
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Mythics are paizo's answer to epics. CR 30 is the max for stated creatures. Endless progression would conflict with that soft max.
So an epic level handbook from paizo is unlikely.
When you ask if Paizo is doing something about epics, it makes little sense to tell people not to bring up Paizo's version of epics. So much so that most of this thread will probably be people telling you about mythics.
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edit:To my knowledge no 3pp is looking at it either, but that can always change.Little Red Goblin Games has Legendary Levels.
There is also that Epic Level Handbook conversion by Jesse Jones. I think we should count that even though he is giving it away instead of selling it.
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