Guide to PACG Organized Play - questions thread


Pathfinder Adventure Card Society

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Grand Lodge

Hi, all -

I thought it might be helpful to have a single thread where we can ask any clarification questions we have regarding the just-released guide (which you can find here).

For now, I have two:

(1) In "Building Your Character" it says:

Quote:
All of the cards must come from your Class Deck, with one exception: You may substitute any character of the appropriate class (along with a matching role and token card) from a base set or Character Add-On Deck. For example, if you’re using the Fighter Class Deck, you may use the fighter Valeros from the Rise of the Runelords base set or from the Skull & Shackles base set.

From this I assume (but would like to check this assumptions) that :

- This is essentially using a pregen character instead of one of the four characters from your class deck
- All the cards used to build the pregen come from the base set instead of a class deck
- At the end of the scenario, the cards go back into the box (in other words, you don't keep a pregen between scenarios

Is any of this wrong?

(2) Under "Higher Level Characters" it starts off by saying

Quote:
"If you're coming late to the Adventure Card Guild and want to play with an established group or event, you have three options."

I think this means that if you come in when a group has already progressed a ways through the adventure decks? The wording "come late..." could be initially misconstrued to mean 'if you come late on a game night, here's how you could jump in.' That was the first thing that came to mind for me before reading further.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

1. No when you are using a character out of a base set all you add are the character card, roll card and the token card. All other cards come from the class deck. So at the end of the night you still walk away with all the cards you arrived with.

2. Yes it means when a character start after the rest of the group have completed a significant number of senarios.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

My question was.
the senario cards for the adventure card tells you to remove cards from the game at a certain point in the game. Eg after senario pack 3.
Does the same hold true for your cards in the charactor deck or are you stuck with having basic cards in your deck?

Grand Lodge

OK, I think that makes sense, but I would suggest that a wording change might help clarify that the cards except for the character, role, and token card still need to come from your Class Deck (and therefore, by extension, this exception does not allow you to play without a Class Deck).

I'm guessing two reasons why someone would do this are (a) to play a pregen as described under the 'Higher Level Characters" section, or possibly (b) because they just prefer to play the iconic rather than any of the four characters included in the Class Deck?

Grand Lodge

And one more from me. On page 8, there is an example of upgrading your deck:

Quote:
Pat uses the set B weapon he got to add the set 1 weapon Main-Gauche from his Ranger Class Deck box to his character deck

But on the previous page, it says:

Quote:

When you choose a card from the play area, instead of adding it

directly to your character deck, choose a card from your Class Deck box of the same type with an adventure deck number no higher than that of the chosen card.

Wouldn't Pat need to choose a set B weapon from the Class Deck? In other words, isn't "1" considered higher than "B"?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Page 6 Promo Cards:

Page 6 wrote:

Promo Cards

Promo cards may not be used when building Adventure
Card Guild character decks. You may add up to 12 promo
cards to the box, but you may not add more than 1 copy
of any one card.

2 things

1- It says you may not use promo cards when 'building' Adventure Card Guild Characters

2- It says you may add up to 12 cards to the box, but no more than 1 copy

-------------------------------

1 does not cover when upgrading, only building. Does this mean that we can use promo cards when upgrading our decks, or is this intended to close that loop hole. If it is intended to close the loop hole then it should say 'or upgrading' after 'building'. Right now it is using a somewhat generic term that is earlier defined as creating a deck if it is also meant to be 'upgrading' which is the term used later

2- It does not say 'game' box, when I first read this I took it to mean my character class box, because it is talking about 'building' my character deck, my mind didn't go to 'game' box until hawkmoon pointed out in another place that is what it meant. But I am not sure about that either, but he could be right.

---------------------------------

I would like to be able to use promo cards that I've acquired, like fire sneeze, in my Wizard deck. I would be more than ok if there were limitations to being able to add promo cards. Such as needing them to be marked and signed off on your chronicle sheet, but I don't see why they would be available in the 'GAME' box, but not available to upgrade your deck if they are available to you. It isn't a matter of being 'fair' otherwise you wouldn't allow promo cards at all. There are going to be games ran where the organizer has zero promo cards in their Game Box, and there will be games ran where they have 12. It is inconsistent on either end of the rule.

Not trying to get promo's banned, just saying that if you legitimately upgrade your deck, give me a way of using the cards i've acquired to do so.

Thanks

Grand Lodge

agraham2410 wrote:

My question was.

the senario cards for the adventure card tells you to remove cards from the game at a certain point in the game. Eg after senario pack 3.
Does the same hold true for your cards in the charactor deck or are you stuck with having basic cards in your deck?
Quote:

Purge Basics and Elites by Adventure Deck:Each season’s Adventure Path tells you when and how to begin removing cards with the Basic and Elite traits from the game. To make things more interesting and to help you remove the right cards faster, when you add a new Adventure Deck to your Base Set after adventure 3, remove all cards with the Basic and Elite traits with adventure deck numbers at least two lower than the adventure deck you just added. (Treat the set indicators B, C, and P as zero for this purpose.)

Purge Basics and Elites on the Fly: Alternately, if you can’t spend as much time preparing the box before play, you can purge the Basic and Elite cards when you encounter them. Just set everything up as usual, and when you run into a card that would have been removed, immediately remove it from the game and replace it with another card of the same type from the box.

As I understand it, this means that when you add Adventure Deck 3, you go through and take out all the Basic and Elite cards from sets "B," "C," "P," and "1" from the box, but I guess the answer to your question depends upon what they mean by "from the game" - is this just the box, or also all Basics and Elites that qualify from the players' decks who are participating.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Solo Play/Home Play

They say that you can get chronicle boons for the Pathfinder Society RPG play from these rounds. How does this work with home play scenarios? Can you only get these boons at organized events? What if there are no events available in your area? Do you miss out on these boons?

Page 9 wrote:


Pathfinder Society Roleplaying
Guild Rewards
Some Adventure Card Guild scenarios grant rewards that
can be assigned to Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild
characters. These rewards will be listed on the Chronicle
sheet, and you should record the Pathfinder Society Number
of the RPG character that will be receiving the reward.


Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Doug Maynard wrote:
OK, I think that makes sense, but I would suggest that a wording change might help clarify that the cards except for the character, role, and token card still need to come from your Class Deck (and therefore, by extension, this exception does not allow you to play without a Class Deck).

It does say that all the cards has to come from the class deck, with the exception of character/role/token. And it also says you are required a Class Deck to play.

Remember also that one of the four characters in the Class Deck also is the iconic. So you can choose to play with RotR, S&S or Class Deck Valeros if you want to play an iconic fighter.

Grand Lodge

Finally (for now!), there are two paragraphs in Appendix II which seem very similar and I'm not sure how to interpret them if they indeed refer to different things:

Quote:
...if you gained a deck upgrade as part of a scenario reward, check off a box and fill in the boon type and adventure deck number of the reward.
Quote:
If your character gains an upgrade as a result of the deck upgrade process, check off a box under Deck Upgrades and note the type and adventure deck number of the upgrade in the adjacent blank.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Jorsalheim wrote:
Doug Maynard wrote:
OK, I think that makes sense, but I would suggest that a wording change might help clarify that the cards except for the character, role, and token card still need to come from your Class Deck (and therefore, by extension, this exception does not allow you to play without a Class Deck).

It does say that all the cards has to come from the class deck, with the exception of character/role/token. And it also says you are required a Class Deck to play.

Remember also that one of the four characters in the Class Deck also is the iconic. So you can choose to play with RotR, S&S or Class Deck Valeros if you want to play an iconic fighter.

Page5 wrote:

BUILDING YOUR CHARACTER

To play an Adventure Card Guild scenario, you’ll need
Class Deck, currently available at paizo.com/pacg or at
your local game store.
Choose one of the four characters contained in the deck
and build that character’s deck using cards of the number
and type indicated on the character’s Cards List, which is
located on the back of the character card. All of the cards
must come from your Class Deck, with one exception:
You may substitute any character of the appropriate class
(along with a matching role and token card) from a base
set or Character Add-On Deck. For example, if you’re
using the Fighter Class Deck, you may use the fighter
Valeros from the Rise of the Runelords base set or from
the Skull & Shackles base set. Don’t forget to register
your character at paizo.com/pathfindersociety, unless
you’re “taking one for the team” (see the next page).

That quote is from building your character which says when building all of the cards must come from your class deck, with the exception of characters.

When it discusses upgrading your deck on page 7 it does not state that limitation, it only talks about substituting cards.

On Page 6 it says that you can add up to 12 promo cards to the 'box', it does not say 'game box', just box. So if that loop hole remains, it could be interpreted to say 'deck class box' at which point up to 12 promo cards should be available.

I think promo boons should be available if you earn them during play, or through upgrading using their guidelines. Hoping that they clarify


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Doug Maynard wrote:

Finally (for now!), there are two paragraphs in Appendix II which seem very similar and I'm not sure how to interpret them if they indeed refer to different things:

Quote:
...if you gained a deck upgrade as part of a scenario reward, check off a box and fill in the boon type and adventure deck number of the reward.
Quote:
If your character gains an upgrade as a result of the deck upgrade process, check off a box under Deck Upgrades and note the type and adventure deck number of the upgrade in the adjacent blank.

They do regard 2 different things

1- Scenario Reward: This, to me, is the boon/reward you gain for completeing the scenario. In the stand alone game this could be a boon of a specific type, or a random boon

2- Upgrade refers to the cards you get during regular play.

Either way the rule sticks, if you gained a boon, mark the type and level on the chronicle sheet.

Grand Lodge

Jorsalheim wrote:
Doug Maynard wrote:
OK, I think that makes sense, but I would suggest that a wording change might help clarify that the cards except for the character, role, and token card still need to come from your Class Deck (and therefore, by extension, this exception does not allow you to play without a Class Deck).
It does say that all the cards has to come from the class deck, with the exception of character/role/token. And it also says you are required a Class Deck to play.

Yes, I think a careful reading (more careful than my initial reading!) would perhaps clear it up, but I do think a sentence reminding readers that the content of the deck still must come from the class deck would help with clarity.


Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Yoshua wrote:

Page 6 Promo Cards:

Page 6 wrote:

Promo Cards

Promo cards may not be used when building Adventure
Card Guild character decks. You may add up to 12 promo
cards to the box, but you may not add more than 1 copy
of any one card.

2 things

1- It says you may not use promo cards when 'building' Adventure Card Guild Characters

2- It says you may add up to 12 cards to the box, but no more than 1 copy

-------------------------------

1 does not cover when upgrading, only building. Does this mean that we can use promo cards when upgrading our decks, or is this intended to close that loop hole. If it is intended to close the loop hole then it should say 'or upgrading' after 'building'. Right now it is using a somewhat generic term that is earlier defined as creating a deck if it is also meant to be 'upgrading' which is the term used later

2- It does not say 'game' box, when I first read this I took it to mean my character class box, because it is talking about 'building' my character deck, my mind didn't go to 'game' box until hawkmoon pointed out in another place that is what it meant. But I am not sure about that either, but he could be right.

---------------------------------

I would like to be able to use promo cards that I've acquired, like fire sneeze, in my Wizard deck. I would be more than ok if there were limitations to being able to add promo cards. Such as needing them to be marked and signed off on your chronicle sheet, but I don't see why they would be available in the 'GAME' box, but not available to upgrade your deck if they are available to you. It isn't a matter of being 'fair' otherwise you wouldn't allow promo cards at all. There are going to be games ran where the organizer has zero promo cards in their Game Box, and there will be games ran where they have 12. It is inconsistent on either end of the rule.

Not trying to get promo's banned, just saying that if you legitimately upgrade your deck, give me a way of using the cards i've acquired to do so....

1. You only upgrade from your Class Deck and there wont be any promos in that deck.

2. I would not doubt Hawkmoon. I've never seen the Class Deck refered by anything other than the Class Deck. Never seen the term "box" been used for anything other than the big box of cards used to set up scenarios.

You can't keep any cards aquired while playing anyways, so I don't see the the "unfairness" of playing from a box without them.

Venture-Lieutenant, Online—ACG aka Hawkmoon269

It looks to me the "the box" always means the Base Set box and when it refers to the class deck box it says "Class Deck box". Though I suppose it could be made more clear.

The promo cards go in the Base Set box. That is more clear on page 10 in the section about Preparing the Game Box.

Page 10 wrote:
Limit Promo Cards: Add no more than one copy of any promotional card you have to the base set, and add no more than 12 promo cards in total.

So they aren't in your class deck.

The rule that would keep you from keeping the promo cards is the page 7 rule.

Page 7 wrote:
In Adventure Card Guild play, you don’t get to keep the cards that you’ve acquired or otherwise gained during the scenario. Instead, you use them to determine which cards you get to take from your own Class Deck box.

And since the promo card isn't in your class deck, you can't get it when rebuilding your character.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the cards you acquire during play are going to come from the Base Set box. So the promo card you acquire isn't going to be yours (unless you happen to be the guy owning the box).

Venture-Lieutenant, Online—ACG aka Hawkmoon269

Doug Maynard wrote:
agraham2410 wrote:

My question was.

the senario cards for the adventure card tells you to remove cards from the game at a certain point in the game. Eg after senario pack 3.
Does the same hold true for your cards in the charactor deck or are you stuck with having basic cards in your deck?
Quote:

Purge Basics and Elites by Adventure Deck:Each season’s Adventure Path tells you when and how to begin removing cards with the Basic and Elite traits from the game. To make things more interesting and to help you remove the right cards faster, when you add a new Adventure Deck to your Base Set after adventure 3, remove all cards with the Basic and Elite traits with adventure deck numbers at least two lower than the adventure deck you just added. (Treat the set indicators B, C, and P as zero for this purpose.)

Purge Basics and Elites on the Fly: Alternately, if you can’t spend as much time preparing the box before play, you can purge the Basic and Elite cards when you encounter them. Just set everything up as usual, and when you run into a card that would have been removed, immediately remove it from the game and replace it with another card of the same type from the box.

As I understand it, this means that when you add Adventure Deck 3, you go through and take out all the Basic and Elite cards from sets "B," "C," "P," and "1" from the box, but I guess the answer to your question depends upon what they mean by "from the game" - is this just the box, or also all Basics and Elites that qualify from the players' decks who are participating.

I think Basic and Elites in your class deck will get purged only as you replace them when upgrading your deck. So if you don't have something to replace the Basic/Elite, you have to keep the Basic/Elite.

If you are worried about the idea that a scenario reward could result in you getting a random Basic card, remember that late in the Adventure Path of RotR the rewards were stated to be "a non-Basic, non-Elite..." so they can take care of that problem on the scenario reward text and don't need to take care of it with a rule about your class deck.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

taking another players interpretation vs what is in the guide isn't law. Hawkmoon is good, but if a book intended to teach new and old players organized play is leaving a loop hole open,then it needs to be brought to paizo's attention to get it closed.

also, if players, mainly me in this instance, wants to use promo cards legally in organized play? this is the only way players, again mainly me, have the opportunity to bring it up ;)

I have seen the class decks be referred to as boxes both spoken with other players and in text. It was before the term 'class deck' was thrown around all over the place but 'deck box' was used.

Either way, it isn't about doubting Hawkmoons divine genius in all things Pathfinder Adventure Card Game. It is about pointing out pointing out a possible confusing point that not 'everyone' who reads it is going to have a natural 20 when rolling the wisdom check.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Yoshua wrote:

taking another players interpretation vs what is in the guide isn't law. Hawkmoon is good, but if a book intended to teach new and old players organized play is leaving a loop hole open,then it needs to be brought to paizo's attention to get it closed.

also, if players, mainly me in this instance, wants to use promo cards legally in organized play? this is the only way players, again mainly me, have the opportunity to bring it up ;)

I have seen the class decks be referred to as boxes both spoken with other players and in text. It was before the term 'class deck' was thrown around all over the place but 'deck box' was used.

Either way, it isn't about doubting Hawkmoons divine genius in all things Pathfinder Adventure Card Game. It is about pointing out pointing out a possible confusing point that not 'everyone' who reads it is going to have a natural 20 when rolling the wisdom check.

Agree it needs clarifying, but the thing to me that indicates they do mean the promos go into the Base box, not Class Deck Box...is that they have been very to the point on stating the you are able to identify cards that belong to your Deck by the Class Deck logo printed on them vs the RotR/SaS logo on the game cards.

Using promos in your Class deck would muddy this line significantly (how do you tell at the end of a scenario whether a promo is one that the player picked up during the scenario or one they had all along?).

Venture-Lieutenant, Online—ACG aka Hawkmoon269

It hasn't been asked yet, but since I think it relates to the discussion about a character not from the class deck...

Hypothetical Question wrote:

Why does the section on building my initial character deck mention not having enough Basic cards?

Page 5 wrote:
If you do not have enough such cards to finish building your deck, you may then add cards with the B set indicator that do not have the Basic trait.
Will there not be enough basic boons in the class deck?

My guess is the reason this is in there is so that if you take a character from an Adventure Path and use the appropriate class deck, you might find you a short a basic boon.

For instance, say the Fighter Class Deck fighters all have 4 blessings or less on their initial deck list. So only 4 Blessings of the Gods are included in the class deck box to maximize space for other cards. But then one day you decide to play Valeros from Curse of the Crimson Throne. And that Valeros starts with 5 blessings. Now you've got a problem, since you only have 4 BotGs. So this little rule gives you a way to solve that problem. I'm fairly certain this rule won't come up while you are using a character from the class deck itself. (Though I could also be wrong.)


During the upgrade portion of the guide. I realize what happens when you have not enough cards found in the adventure path for each person to get one. My question though is what happens when you have too many? If there is 8 cards found in the adventure path and only 5 players, do 3 people get to pick two upgrades, or does each person get to pick one upgrade and the rest are discarded?

Venture-Lieutenant, Online—ACG aka Hawkmoon269

Yoshua wrote:
Either way, it isn't about doubting Hawkmoons divine genius in all things Pathfinder Adventure Card Game. It is about pointing out pointing out a possible confusing point that not 'everyone' who reads it is going to have a natural 20 when rolling the wisdom check.

Just to clarify, it is perfectly fine to doubt me. I've been wrong and will continue to be wrong, I'm sure.

We are all posting fast and furious, but I mentioned above that, to me, it looks like "the box" seems to always mean "the Base Set Box" and that when the document wants to talk about your class deck it always uses "Class Deck box". But that isn't totally obvious and I too wouldn't mind it being a bit more explicit.

Venture-Lieutenant, Online—ACG aka Hawkmoon269

Pletheria wrote:
During the upgrade portion of the guide. I realize what happens when you have not enough cards found in the adventure path for each person to get one. My question though is what happens when you have too many? If there is 8 cards found in the adventure path and only 5 players, do 3 people get to pick two upgrades, or does each person get to pick one upgrade and the rest are discarded?

It looks to me like each player only gets 1 upgrade (at least from this method, rewards might give you additional upgrades). So the rest are just put back in the box. But that is just a guess.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

My question is why only pregen deck lists for the 7 iconics and not the other 21 possible characters? Especially if you need an advanced one for deck 4+.

Maybe we will get another appendix?


Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Yoshua wrote:

taking another players interpretation vs what is in the guide isn't law. Hawkmoon is good, but if a book intended to teach new and old players organized play is leaving a loop hole open,then it needs to be brought to paizo's attention to get it closed.

also, if players, mainly me in this instance, wants to use promo cards legally in organized play? this is the only way players, again mainly me, have the opportunity to bring it up ;)

I have seen the class decks be referred to as boxes both spoken with other players and in text. It was before the term 'class deck' was thrown around all over the place but 'deck box' was used.

Either way, it isn't about doubting Hawkmoons divine genius in all things Pathfinder Adventure Card Game. It is about pointing out pointing out a possible confusing point that not 'everyone' who reads it is going to have a natural 20 when rolling the wisdom check.

I'm sorry. But I see noe they use the wording Class Deck box in the guide. :)

But they are using the general term "the box" for the big box. As they do in the rules and in the section on Aquiring Scenario Bonuses in this guide.

guide page 7 wrote:
If you are rewarded with a card from the box, you will instead take a random card of the same type from your Class Deck box.

And I'm not saying Hawkmoon is the law, but he kind of nails it right pretty often :)


Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
jones314 wrote:

My question is why only pregen deck lists for the 7 iconics and not the other 21 possible characters? Especially if you need an advanced one for deck 4+.

Maybe we will get another appendix?

It's like the ordinary Pathfinder Society. They only have pregens for the Iconics there too. Pregens are used to jump quickly into a game without using much time to create a character. Most players will probably want to set up their own character by their self anyways.

Grand Lodge 5/5

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Based on conversations with other folks, here are some suggestions I have for the Guide:

1. The "card pool" section regarding rewards could really benefit from a diagram or illustration to demonstrate what it refers to. As it is, I can easily see it causing confusion for some players about how to handle the end of a scenario. It's just a weirdly worded chunk of text that would greatly benefit from a visual aid.

2. I know it's implied throughout the Guide, and it even states that a Class Deck is required. However, I think explicitly stating which Class Decks are available to use would dispel any possible confusion. For example, listing the seven Class Decks that can be used for PFSACG OP would prevent some folks from mistakenly assuming a Class Deck just means any deck constructed from a class, such as a Gunslinger or Swashbuckler. Remember, you never want players to make assumptions about the rules of the game. Even if it's painfully obvious, it's always better to be explicitly clear to avoid future headaches for you and the organizers.

3. While we're talking about being explicit, some clearer wording about exactly when certain types of cards, such as Basic and Elite, get cycled out will be helpful in the long run. Again, being clear means a smaller window of incorrect assumptions. State exactly which scenario begins the culling of each type of card in the Guide.

4. I'm sure it's coming, but include PFSACG VO's in the guide and not just a link to the regional coordinator page.

5. Include a header and link to the Store Locator for players to easily find PFSACG OP events near them.

6. I know Vic has mentioned it's coming as well, but we really, really need a separate Organized Play messageboard for PACG, sooner rather than later. It helps catch the attention of forum browsers and lurkers and builds interest among the Paizo community by keeping that discussion is a clearly defined location.

Venture-Agent, New Mexico—Alamogordo aka pluvia33

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So I mentioned this in the product discussion, but I think things might need to be a little more clear as far as what cards are available to add to an organized play box. It seems like the intent is that you should only be using Skull & Shackles cards for the box (meaning the Base Set, Character Add-On Deck, and Promo cards made for Skull & Shackles), that you shouldn't add any cards from the Rise of the Runelords release.

However, this isn't explicitly stated. The section on promo cards says you can have up to 12 promo cards, with one copy of each. 12 is the number of promo cards that they are planning to release for Skull & Shackles, so it seems like they are just stating that you can only use one of each of those promos. But taking it literally, the guild allows you to add old Rise of the Runelords promos to an organized play box.

Then you have the issue that some people will likely use the boons from extra copies of Class Decks to integrate more cards into their box which again is something that is not touched on in the guide. Then there are the new Special cards that will be included in the new minis sets, but I'm sure a new guild will come out by then since we'll have a new base set out.

This is the main kind of thing I was looking for since I'll likely be the main source of the OP game box in my area, but it looks like some things can be elaborated on.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

They've said several times on the forums and in the guide itself that season 0 is going to be a trial run to see how this goes. I think some of these comments are way too nitpicky for a product that isn't out yet. If you want to play a full fledged, tight rules system game, then come back in a year. Meanwhile, the rest of us will be here helping Paizo figure out how exactly this is all going to work, and enjoying the evolution.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Vague comments are vague. Trial run is to work out the kinks, there are no bad questions to ask. It makes people think and come up with solutions. Nit picking is exactly what a trial run is for. Hammering out how exactly it is going to work

Hopefully no one will be discouraged from asking questions on the basis of 'it doesn't need to be a finely tuned machine'

Venture-Agent, New Mexico—Alamogordo aka pluvia33

Indeed. How will this eventually become "a full fledge, tight rules system game" and evolve without us asking nitpicky questions? A comment like that is very counterproductive to what the developers seem to be trying to accomplish.

And this doesn't really look that complicated. One year seems much further out than the system should need to work smoothly.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I just feel bad for Mike and Tannis and everybody when the majority of the comments are strictly negative. They put in so much hard work on everything, this guide included. I am so excited for this game that I am eating up every bit of information I can find, and when I come across threads like these, it makes me a bit sad. I guess people just express their excitement in different ways.

I really like how Hawkmoon's enthusiasm for the game bleeds through his posts, while at the same time he is still able to offer constructive criticism to the team. I don't see that with everybody's posts.


My question:

Are we limited in the number of characters we register? In other words, if I have opportunities to play multiple games at a store, or different stores, or a mix of home and store games, can I register a different character for each?

My comments:

Just because someone answers your question does not mean that Paizo will not answer or clarify in the appropriate documents. But answering the question gives you some guidance of how to proceed now, and both you and Paizo some perspective on how others interpret the rules.

For example, I completely concur with the assertions that the promo cards are used only in the box (the base set box). The class deck is not a box, it is your class deck. You do not have any promo cards in your class deck, and you cannot build your deck with any cards that are not in your class deck. My class deck is just like yours (for that class) and I should be able to build your OP character from my class deck and you should be able to build mine. This is what will "ensure that all players at all tables share a similar experience, no matter where the game is running or who’s setting it up" as per the OP guide.

I think the fact that you cannot build your class deck using promos is very clear. If others are not sure its clear, then the guide may need to be revised. However, if you are sure its clear but would like it to be revised to include promos, that's a different question. You can certainly bring it up for consideration, but I think its best to be clear if you you are seeking clarity, asking for a change or perhaps both.

The question that came up with promos that I think certainly needs additional clarity is the question of which promos can be used in a given season. I had assumed that any promos could be used and had not even considered that only promos from the current season could be used. But now that someone raised the question (pluvia33, I believe) I think there may be intent that it is only promos for the current season. Either way, this should be clarified by stating that you can use ANY promo cards that have ever been released, or stating that they are limited to those for the corresponding season, or the best solution, specifically listing the promo cards by name that can be used with a given season.

I think limiting the promo cards to the season makes the most sense in terms of balance considerations for the season. You can't put your favorite cards from RotR into the S&S box for Organized Play (or there would certainly be Holy Candles being dropped in, among other things) so you should not be allowed to use promos from prior seasons. Don't get me wrong, I want to play Fire Sneeze and Poog as much as the next guy, but I think it is outside the scope of OP to do so.

The Exchange

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eddiephlash wrote:

I just feel bad for Mike and Tannis and everybody when the majority of the comments are strictly negative. They put in so much hard work on everything, this guide included. I am so excited for this game that I am eating up every bit of information I can find, and when I come across threads like these, it makes me a bit sad. I guess people just express their excitement in different ways.

I really like how Hawkmoon's enthusiasm for the game bleeds through his posts, while at the same time he is still able to offer constructive criticism to the team. I don't see that with everybody's posts.

Don't worry too much about Tanis and Mike and Vic. They are Organized Play and board regulars and, I think, understand what the community means.

The truth is that this document will need 1000 hits from the forge's hammer (aka our community review and comments) before it gets that Year One look and feel.

And when someone like ThreeEyedSloth posts what he did above, I thank and appreciate his thoughts: he's been a store and gameday coordinator for a long time...and if he offers some constructive feedback that he feels will reduce confusion amongst his players, I hope the team will look at those suggestions.

Pretty much, eddiephlash, everyone who is posting now (this early in the process) has the best intents: we all want a great OP campaign and I don't worry about the Team taking the comments the wrong way.

Nah...don't worry.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Thanks! Didn't mean to offend any posters here!

Grand Lodge

Agreed, I think that we are asking questions because the answers aren't immediately apparent to us from reading the guide; I would think that the Paizo staff would find this sort of information helpful when working on the guide.


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I do find it a bit strange that you can only upgrade (or have the chance at upgrading, since if I understand correctly, the draws are random) one card per scenario (outside of scenario rewards). In RotR, I would often upgrade 3 or 4 cards in a scenario (and sometimes none). I'll take the designers rules as written since I trust that there is a reason (and I want to conform to the rules); I just want to make sure that I'm interpreting it correctly.

Venture-Agent, New Mexico—Alamogordo aka pluvia33

vagabondriot wrote:
I do find it a bit strange that you can only upgrade (or have the chance at upgrading, since if I understand correctly, the draws are random) one card per scenario (outside of scenario rewards).

That's how I read it as well. It sounded a little weird at first, but it made sense when I thought about it. With a Class Deck you will have a very smell, specific pool of cards to choose from. You may only get to upgrade one card per scenario, but you get to choose a more specific card. When you play a normal scenario, you may get the opportunity to gain 3 or 4 new cards, but how many of them are actually worth keeping? It's 3 or 4 random cards verses a single card with much more freedom of choice. I think that balances out.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

I'm going to ask people to hold off asking questions here while I catch up. Please don't post until I tell you I'm ready!

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

We will release an update to the guide sometime after Gen Con but before in-store play begins on September 3.

Doug Maynard wrote:

In "Building Your Character" it says:

Quote:
All of the cards must come from your Class Deck, with one exception: You may substitute any character of the appropriate class (along with a matching role and token card) from a base set or Character Add-On Deck. For example, if you’re using the Fighter Class Deck, you may use the fighter Valeros from the Rise of the Runelords base set or from the Skull & Shackles base set.

We will add the following word: "You may substitute any character card of the appropriate class..."

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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agraham2410 wrote:

My question was.

the senario cards for the adventure card tells you to remove cards from the game at a certain point in the game. Eg after senario pack 3.
Does the same hold true for your cards in the charactor deck or are you stuck with having basic cards in your deck?

The Adventure Path card for organized play works differently from the regular Adventure Path card.

That said, when we have you remove cards, you'll only remove the cards from your game box, not your class deck box. (However, just because they're in your Class Deck box doesn't mean they have to be in your character deck.)

Also, we will do a pass to make sure that the word "box" is always specified as either "game box" or "Class Deck box."

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Doug Maynard wrote:

And one more from me. On page 8, there is an example of upgrading your deck:

Quote:
Pat uses the set B weapon he got to add the set 1 weapon Main-Gauche from his Ranger Class Deck box to his character deck

But on the previous page, it says:

Quote:

When you choose a card from the play area, instead of adding it

directly to your character deck, choose a card from your Class Deck box of the same type with an adventure deck number no higher than that of the chosen card.
Wouldn't Pat need to choose a set B weapon from the Class Deck? In other words, isn't "1" considered higher than "B"?

Looks like that example is in error. We will fix. It should be:

Pat uses the set B weapon he got to add the set B weapon Bastard Sword from his Ranger Class Deck box to his character deck...

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Yoshua wrote:

2 things

1- It says you may not use promo cards when 'building' Adventure Card Guild Characters

2- It says you may add up to 12 cards to the box, but no more than 1 copy

-------------------------------

1 does not cover when upgrading, only building. Does this mean that we can use promo cards when upgrading our decks, or is this intended to close that loop hole. If it is intended to close the loop hole then it should say 'or upgrading' after 'building'. Right now it is using a somewhat generic term that is earlier defined as creating a deck if it is also meant to be 'upgrading' which is the term used later

2- It does not say 'game' box, when I first read this I took it to mean my character class box, because it is talking about 'building' my character deck, my mind didn't go to 'game' box until hawkmoon pointed out in another place that is what it meant. But I am not sure about that either, but he could be right.

1: No promo cards are allowed in your character deck. While we don't explicitly say that, the rules do not provide any methods to get them into your deck. Just like any other boon from the game box, they can be used in the upgrade process to get cards from your Class Deck box into your character deck, but they cannot themselves end up in your deck.

2: We'll clarify that we're talking about the game box.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Yoshua wrote:

Solo Play/Home Play

They say that you can get chronicle boons for the Pathfinder Society RPG play from these rounds. How does this work with home play scenarios? Can you only get these boons at organized events? What if there are no events available in your area? Do you miss out on these boons?

We haven't nailed down all the details for that yet. Work in progress!

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Doug Maynard wrote:

Finally (for now!), there are two paragraphs in Appendix II which seem very similar and I'm not sure how to interpret them if they indeed refer to different things:

Quote:
...if you gained a deck upgrade as part of a scenario reward, check off a box and fill in the boon type and adventure deck number of the reward.
Quote:
If your character gains an upgrade as a result of the deck upgrade process, check off a box under Deck Upgrades and note the type and adventure deck number of the upgrade in the adjacent blank.

The first bit is telling you want to do when a scenario reward includes a deck upgrade. The second bit is telling you what to do with the deck upgrade you get just by finishing. Same action, but different causes. Could probably benefit from a wording adjustment.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Hawkmoon269 wrote:

It hasn't been asked yet, but since I think it relates to the discussion about a character not from the class deck...

Hypothetical Question wrote:

Why does the section on building my initial character deck mention not having enough Basic cards?

Page 5 wrote:
If you do not have enough such cards to finish building your deck, you may then add cards with the B set indicator that do not have the Basic trait.
Will there not be enough basic boons in the class deck?

My guess is the reason this is in there is so that if you take a character from an Adventure Path and use the appropriate class deck, you might find you a short a basic boon.

For instance, say the Fighter Class Deck fighters all have 4 blessings or less on their initial deck list. So only 4 Blessings of the Gods are included in the class deck box to maximize space for other cards. But then one day you decide to play Valeros from Curse of the Crimson Throne. And that Valeros starts with 5 blessings. Now you've got a problem, since you only have 4 BotGs. So this little rule gives you a way to solve that problem. I'm fairly certain this rule won't come up while you are using a character from the class deck itself. (Though I could also be wrong.)

Amazingly, for once, you're wrong! This is by design. The Class Decks do not necessarily have enough Basic B cards to build your deck, even for characters in the Class Deck box. They *do* have enough B cards if you use non-Basics, though. You may recognize that this represents a slight power increase, but in OP, we don't have any B scenarios—we jump right into Adventure 1. (You'll appreciate this later.)

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Pletheria wrote:
During the upgrade portion of the guide. I realize what happens when you have not enough cards found in the adventure path for each person to get one. My question though is what happens when you have too many? If there is 8 cards found in the adventure path and only 5 players, do 3 people get to pick two upgrades, or does each person get to pick one upgrade and the rest are discarded?

We say "Regardless of the method chosen, each player will receive exactly one deck upgrade (that is, one card) per scenario, excluding scenario rewards."

Yes, we realize that you're used to shopping at the General Store, or Ranzakking your way to booty heaven, but in Org Play, it's one card per scenario (unless you get one as a specific scenario reward).

Partly, it's because your Class Deck contains a relatively small pool of boons to unlock: there are 97 of them for the entire AP, and you must pace yourself. And partly, it's because unlike standard play, the cards you're gaining are specifically suited for your needs. Not only are they coming from a pool of cards that we intended specifically for you, but you actually get to choose the exact card you're getting (within the constraints of the upgrade process, of course). You're going to find that's a pretty big deal.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

jones314 wrote:

My question is why only pregen deck lists for the 7 iconics and not the other 21 possible characters? Especially if you need an advanced one for deck 4+.

Maybe we will get another appendix?

If you want a pregen, your choices are limited. If you don't want to be limited, don't choose a pregen!

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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ThreeEyedSloth wrote:

Based on conversations with other folks, here are some suggestions I have for the Guide:

1. The "card pool" section regarding rewards could really benefit from a diagram or illustration to demonstrate what it refers to. As it is, I can easily see it causing confusion for some players about how to handle the end of a scenario. It's just a weirdly worded chunk of text that would greatly benefit from a visual aid.

2. I know it's implied throughout the Guide, and it even states that a Class Deck is required. However, I think explicitly stating which Class Decks are available to use would dispel any possible confusion. For example, listing the seven Class Decks that can be used for PFSACG OP would prevent some folks from mistakenly assuming a Class Deck just means any deck constructed from a class, such as a Gunslinger or Swashbuckler. Remember, you never want players to make assumptions about the rules of the game. Even if it's painfully obvious, it's always better to be explicitly clear to avoid future headaches for you and the organizers.

3. While we're talking about being explicit, some clearer wording about exactly when certain types of cards, such as Basic and Elite, get cycled out will be helpful in the long run. Again, being clear means a smaller window of incorrect assumptions. State exactly which scenario begins the culling of each type of card in the Guide.

4. I'm sure it's coming, but include PFSACG VO's in the guide and not just a link to the regional coordinator page.

5. Include a header and link to the Store Locator for players to easily find PFSACG OP events near them.

6. I know Vic has mentioned it's coming as well, but we really, really need a separate Organized Play messageboard for PACG, sooner rather than later. It helps catch the attention of forum browsers and lurkers and builds interest among the Paizo community by keeping that discussion is a clearly defined location.

1. Can you give me a more specific idea of what you have in mind?

2. We're trying to avoid things that need to be updated often. But if we find that people are misunderstanding it, that would be worth making an exception for.

3. This is covered on the Adventure Path card. (And it belongs there, because it may not be the same for every Adventure Path.)

4. We're trying to avoid things that need to be updated often. And that list gets updated OFTEN.

5. Good call. Can't believe we left that out!

6. Yes, coming soon.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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pluvia33 wrote:
So I mentioned this in the product discussion, but I think things might need to be a little more clear as far as what cards are available to add to an organized play box. It seems like the intent is that you should only be using Skull & Shackles cards for the box (meaning the Base Set, Character Add-On Deck, and Promo cards made for Skull & Shackles), that you shouldn't add any cards from the Rise of the Runelords release.

The OP adventures themselves tell you what goes in the game box for each adventure. The Guide also specifically allows you to add promo cards to that, and no, we don't care what sets the promos are from.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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eddiephlash wrote:
They've said several times on the forums and in the guide itself that season 0 is going to be a trial run to see how this goes. I think some of these comments are way too nitpicky for a product that isn't out yet. If you want to play a full fledged, tight rules system game, then come back in a year. Meanwhile, the rest of us will be here helping Paizo figure out how exactly this is all going to work, and enjoying the evolution.

No worries—it's all taken in the spirit of improvement, and it's all helpful.

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