Dual Falcata + buckler, the Rondolero Duelist


Rules Questions


So... Girlfriend's trying to figure out if this works, and my first instinct is that it does, though you're taking some pretty hefty penalties. The relevant tidbits are as follows.

Buckler:
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler’s AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler’s AC bonus until your next turn. You can’t make a shield bash with a buckler.

The Archetype bits:
Buckler Bash (Ex): At 2nd level, a rondelero can perform a shield bash with a buckler (use the same damage and critical modifier as for a light shield). This ability replaces bravery.

Strong Swing (Ex): At 5th level, a rondelero gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a falcata and buckler that applies to attacks made by either hand. These bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th. With a full-attack action, a rondelero may alternate between using his falcata or his buckler for each attack. This does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does. This ability replaces weapon training 1.

Basically, her idea was to play a Rondolero Duelist utilizing the Falcata and Buckler, but also wield another Falcata in the buckler hand. Utilize the two weapon fighting feat chain with the shield bashing goodness that lets her make a shield bash when she scores a critical hit... On the Falcata's 19-20/x3.

Far as I can tell, she'd wind up with a -4/-5 due to both being one handed, rather than light. Come 5th level, it becomes -3/-4, -0/-1 at 17th level.

Am I missing anything?

Sczarni

I think there is a trait in the Shattered Star Players Guide that reduces the TWF penalty on your primary hand by 1.


I can't figure out why two falcata. You can twf with falcata buckler...baby take more penalties?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Don't work.
Two weapon fighting is a full attack that require both hands. At that point your shield arm is used and you can't use it again to wield both a buckler and a second falcata.


Are you still wielding the buckler if you have another weapon in the buckled hand? Doesn't that preclude you from using the buckler for anything?


So pretty much nobody can figure out anything else wrong with it beyond simply taking extra penalties. Alright then, just wanted to make sure.

Oh, and Mojorat... For S&Gs and bad-assery mostly. I run more cinematic games (yes, feel free to run up the wall, leap from there to the chandelier, and get an aerial charge on the back of the Ogre's head. Roll acrobatics with -X), and while brutal, I tailor my campaigns to my players. So, yeah, she's going with the visual over the mechanics, lol.

Edit: Ninja'd twice.

@Torbyne: You're still wielding the buckler and get it to AC as long as you don't attack with whatever weapon is in that hand.

@Diego: Really? I see nothing in the Two Weapon Fighting section about it being a full attack.

From the SRD:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

Near as I can tell, I can see no reason why in terms of using TWF, one can't use the falcata in the main hand, and either the falcata in the off hand, OR the buckler strapped to that arm that the rondolero allows you to shield bash.

I also see no reason by RAW (unless you can specifically link me to it somewhere), that shield bashing off the critical using that one feat won't work with the specially-allowed-buckler-bash when something's already in the offhand.

And going off of how it would attack, I can easily see such a style working IRL in any case, so it would make sense. Course by that point I'd imagine it with two bucklers, but eh...


Diego is correct. Look under combat, full round action, full attack:

Quote:
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

Because the rondelero allows you to swap between shield bash attacks and falcata attacks as part of a full round action, I would say that yes you can substitute the bash in place of a normal attack made by either primary or off hand falcata (or both I suppose). You would not however get to attack with both off-hand falcata and buckler simultaneously.

I'm a little confused as to how you get free shield bashes from criticals.


Mm... Not quite sure where you're getting "both simultaneously" from. Mainly was asking for this here. Free Shield Bash After a Crit! .

Seems I forgot to put that in the OP. Silly me X_X.

Edit: Also was looking to make sure I got the penalties for dual-falcata (-4/-4 with TWF feat) when one has a buckler equipped (-4/-5) correct, but I'm pretty sure on that one myself that I didn't miss anything there.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
SRD wrote:

Buckler Bash (Ex): At 2nd level, a rondelero can perform a shield bash with a buckler (use the same damage and critical modifier as for a light shield). This ability replaces bravery.

Strong Swing (Ex): At 5th level, a rondelero gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a falcata and buckler that applies to attacks made by either hand. These bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th. With a full-attack action, a rondelero may alternate between using his falcata or his buckler for each attack. This does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does. This ability replaces weapon training 1.

Buckler Bash - that is a specific exception to the rules, as you normally can't make shield bash with a buckler.

Strong Swing (Ex): At 5th level, a rondelero gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a falcata and buckler that applies to attacks made by either hand. These bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th.

He the problem start. You need to wield both the falcata and the buckler. Wield isn't used with perfect consistency in the rules, but generally it mean "actively use". For a shield like object it mean using it to increase your AC or to make a shield bash. If it is on a arm that is used for other things you aren't wilding it.

You can have a buckler strapped to your arm while wielding a falcata in the corresponding hand. but when you attack with the falcata you aren't wielding the buckler. The archetype don't change that (at least the two abilities cited don't do that) and the text of the ability implies that you are using both hands.

With a full-attack action, a rondelero may alternate between using his falcata or his buckler for each attack.

Actually this is redundant as it is something that you can do normally (if you can make attacks with the buckler). If you have iterative attacks and you are using them you can use weapons in different hands, as long as you use a different iterative with each hand and you aren't using two weapon fighting.

This does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does. This ability replaces weapon training 1.

It isn't two weapon fighting. It replace weapon training 1 with a bonus specific set of weapons.

èquote=FAQ] Multiple Weapons, Extra Attacks, and Two-Weapon Fighting: If I have extra attacks from a high BAB, can I make attacks with different weapons and not incur a two-weapon fighting penalty?

Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.
Let's assume you're a 6th-level fighter (BAB +6/+1) holding a longsword in one hand and a light mace in the other. Your possible full attack combinations without using two-weapon fighting are:
(A) longsword at +6, longsword +1
(B) mace +6, mace +1
(C) longsword +6, mace +1
(D) mace +6, longsword +1
All of these combinations result in you making exactly two attacks, one at +6 and one at +1. You're not getting any extra attacks, therefore you're not using the two-weapon fighting rule, and therefore you're not taking any two-weapon fighting penalties.
If you have Quick Draw, you could even start the round wielding only one weapon, make your main attack with it, draw the second weapon as a free action after your first attack, and use that second weapon to make your iterative attack (an "iterative attack" is an informal term meaning "extra attacks you get from having a high BAB"). As long as you're properly using the BAB values for your iterative attacks, and as long as you're not exceeding the number of attacks per round granted by your BAB, you are not considered to be using two-weapon fighting, and therefore do not take any of the penalties for two-weapon fighting.
The two-weapon fighting option in the Core Rulebook specifically refers to getting an extra attack for using a second weapon in your offhand. In the above four examples, there is no extra attack, therefore you're not using two-weapon fighting.
Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."
posted November 2011

PRD wrote:

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

It is possible to argue that the character in question can make a shield bash with his off hand as one of his attacks instead of attacking with the falcata in his off hand and so wield the buckler, but as soon as he use the falcata in his off hand he change the weapon he is wielding, like a person that drop his mace to draw a sword with quick draw and use it for an attack. So he don't get to wield at the same time 2 falcata and a buckler, he get to wield 2 weapons while using to weapon faithing, it is his choice what pair of weapons.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Artemis Moonstar wrote:
Mm... Not quite sure where you're getting "both simultaneously" from.

From here:

Artemis Moonstar wrote:


Basically, her idea was to play a Rondolero Duelist utilizing the Falcata and Buckler, but also wield another Falcata in the buckler hand. Utilize the two weapon fighting feat chain with the shield bashing goodness that lets her make a shield bash when she scores a critical hit... On the Falcata's 19-20/x3.

2 weapon fighting with two falcata while wielding a buckler at the same time.

Artemis Moonstar wrote:


Mainly was asking for this here. Free Shield Bash After a Crit! .

Seems I forgot to put that in the OP. Silly me X_X.

[quote=PRD[Bashing Finish (Combat)

You follow a powerful blow from your weapon with an opportunistic bash from your shield.

Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Master, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with a melee weapon, you can make a shield bash attack against the same target using the same bonus as a free action.

Use the PRD when possible.

If the character is using the falcata in his off hand he is not using the buckler, so he can't sue the buckler to attack.


I was going to get in a long post, but at this point, I suppose I'll just drop it and house rule it. Apparently I already do without knowing it, when it comes to the Boulder Helmet, Kobold Tail Attachments, and Ratfolk's Tail Blade. It's 4 AM and I'm way too tired to really get into it.

Makes no sense to me the concept of "one has to be using a shield like object as an AC boosting item to shield bash with it". At least we know if she brings a Rondolero to someone else's table.

Not going to exhaust myself over 'hand' and 'wield' semantics for things strapped to your freaking body.


Then what about someone that straps the buckler to their shin and kick people with it, Artemis? You can use parts of your body for attacks. I just think it opens more worm cans than it closes by allowing odd corner cases. I personally don't believe (somehow) holding a metamagic rod with your toes would count when trying to use it. Same with the buckler; it's not "being wielded", the second Falcata is.

Personally though, I like the imagery so I might like allowing this at my table albeit at a slight penalty more than the buckler already supplies.


I don't see why this would not work. With improved shield bash you get to attack and keep your ac bonus. I see no difference from shield bashing and attacking with a weapon in the shield hand, and this would allow her to get the ac bonus from the buckler so she would be wielding it.

Sczarni

Okay now I'm confused...

@Artemis: your GF is only trying to get the extra attack allowed by TWF, not two extra attacks right?

The way I see it, at BAB 5 any character could TWF with dual Falcata's. Barring any modifiers other than TWF, those attacks would be made at -4/-4 (if we assume she has taken TWF feat).

I think we'd all agree that's okay, RAW.

Now, the same character could strap a buckler on one of her arms and TWF with the Falcata's as before; albeit with a further -1 on the buckler arm. -4/-5.
She would not receive the buckler AC bonus if she used that arm to attack w/her 2nd falcata.

That's okay by RAW.

But I don't think she could attack with Falcata/Falcata/buckler.

But I don't think you're asking that are you?


Most of these questions should be answered in the buckler rules.
The TWF penalties are -4/-5 (-1 for the buckler arm).
If you attack with the buckler arm you loose the AC bonus for 1 round.
The buckler is equipped and provides the inormal benefits/pe.nalties for a buckler


@Krodjin: The actual questions pertaining to this, that got lost in translation somewhere, were as follows.

Basic assumption: Weapons that are equipped via strapped somewhere to the body, via Blade Boot, Boulder Helmet, Tail Blades, Armor Spikes, etc, can be used in the alternating attacks of TWF when someone is wielding a blade in either hand. As in, "I can use any of these weapons for TWF, up to the normal limit of attacks allowed". Consider this a house rule, if you have too, because apparently when it comes to TWFing, it is. Using archetypes/feats/whatever to use a buckler to bash, the buckler is included.

Example, 20th level, GTWF: 7 attacks total. Feel free to smash with the warhammer, hack with the battle axe, poke with a blade boot, shoulder check with some armor spikes, headbutt someone with your boulder helmet, poke 'em with a blade boot again, then smash their face with the warhammer as a finale. Before I hear cries of 'raw' 'rai' or god-forbid, 'broken', allow me to respond with "don't care", "don't care again", and "in all my years of using it this way, not one damn bit".

Q1: Was I correct in assuming I hadn't missed anything in the math (-4/-5 with the buckler equipped)? As in, was there some corner case I wasn't aware of? This has been answered and confirmed.

Nowhere was it stated with the belief that one kept the buckler ac bonus after attacking, nor technically getting both at the same time in a single attack.

Q2, which wasn't really a question, as I was under the assumption that TWF was not suffering from semantics about "hands" and other such I found out about after posting this thread: Under said assumptions above, when a critical hit is obtained with either falcata, one would be able to use said bashing buckler to hit with the free shield bash gained from Bashing Finish.

So in other words with basic TWF: Falcata -4/Falcata -5, if either crit and succeed, free shield bash.

As far as "what about a buckler strapped to the shin", no, that would not work, as bucklers are specifically called out to be on the arm. I'm all for homebrewing up a shin-blade or elbow-spike exotic weapon if one wants to go that far. Or better yet, just get some darn armor spikes.


Artemis Moonstar wrote:

Before I hear cries of 'raw' 'rai' or god-forbid, 'broken', allow me to respond with "don't care", "don't care again", and "in all my years of using it this way, not one damn bit".

If you're mind is made up and you are just going to follow your own rules and "nanana I don't care!" on such a basic level of TWF, then why bother asking any of it? Just do what you want/the GM lets you get away with.


For reference... I am the GM. Also, too late to edit the snark out of my comment, but by that point I was irritated (with something offline, I should add).

Basically, I care insofar as whether it's something that can be brought to someone else's table. But as for my games, I've been allowing that for years (whatever weapon you can be considered 'wielding' for TWF), and it hasn't offered any significant bonuses to any PC I've seen make use of it. At worst, there was some shenanigans between Ominous and Cruel enchantments (doable with 'basic' TWF), and more recently Phase Locking, Negating, and some other enchantments I can't recall off-hand that made it hard for planar creatures to escape while weakening them when used together.... If anything, it typically gave straight martials a much needed though minimal boost.

Edit: And back to the original point... All I was doing in making this thread, was making sure I hadn't missed any odd corner cases of math that would crop up. Anything else that cropped up later was in direct reference to stuff that I started playing multiple-weapon users. Way back in 2nd with an armed-to-the-9s spike-laden dwarf. I guess you can blame my old GMs for that, lol.

Sczarni

Okay, that's what I thought you were asking - and yes I agree that if you have the level 2 Buckler Bash ability AND an ability that grants you a free shield bash on a critical hit or whatever, you could take that free shield bash even if your buckler hand is encumbered by the buckler...

What I'm not certain about is that 5th level ability... The fact that it references a "full-attack" seems to preclude it from being combined with TWF... Furthermore, there is that second to last sentence; "This does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.".

Huh? At 5th level a Fighter doesn't have enough BAB to get iterative attacks - so how is he/she supposed to alternate attacks with Falcata/Buckler unless he/she is TWF?

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