Reach Weapon + Reach-Increasing Abilities?


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Silver Crusade

42 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 7 people marked this as a favorite.

Ahoy, fellow Pathfinders!

First, the plain question. Then, the explanation.

Q: Does a Reach weapon double *all* increases to the user's reach, or only some? Which ones?

An interesting disagreement, soon to be more prevalent with the release of the Advanced Class Guide, came up in another thread (HERE) over how reach weapons interact with reach-increasing measures other than enlarge person. Specifically, the Lunge feat, the Aberrant Bloodrager's Abnormal Reach ability, and the long arm spell (the latter two from the ACG).

The disagreement centers on the following text from the Equipment chapter of the Core Rulebook:

Reach Weapon wrote:
A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

[EDIT — Changed presentation to lead with Abnormal Reach and long arm instead of Lunge, since they're better examples of what's in question here.]

Consider these two new abilities from the Advanced Class Guide, the Aberrant Bloodrager's Abnormal Reach ability and the long arm spell.

Abnormal Reach wrote:
Your limbs elongate; your reach increases by 5 feet.
Long Arm wrote:
Your arms temporarily grow in length, increasing your reach with those limbs by 5 feet.

These can both be plausibly described as increases to "natural reach," but does a reach weapon double them? Compare.

(A) Doubling *All* Increases:

Double Everything wrote:

5 ft. base reach

+5 ft. enlarge person
+5 ft. Abnormal Reach
+5 ft. long arm
---------------
20 ft. "natural" reach
x2 reach weapon
---------------
40 ft. reach
+5 ft. Lunge
---------------
45 ft. reach

(B) Doubling *Some* Increases:

Double Some Things wrote:

5 ft. base reach

+5 ft. enlarge person
---------------
10 ft. reach
x2 reach weapon
---------------
20 ft. reach
+5 ft. Abnormal Reach
+5 ft. long arm
+5 ft. Lunge
---------------
35 ft. reach

(Notice that I’ve assumed Lunge [CRB] is added after everything, on the grounds that it doesn’t look like an increase to “natural reach.” One argument might have it doubled along with the others.)

I'm inclined to the second reading, with the reach weapon only doubling the reach from enlarge person, on the grounds that out of these effects only enlarge person does anything to increase the size of your weapon. Lunge, Abnormal Reach, and long arm do nothing to make your longspear any longer.

But not everyone buys that interpretation, so I thought the question would be worth bringing up in its own thread for folks to discuss, especially since the question will likely become more prevalent (including in PFS) with the release of the Advanced Class Guide. (I'm also flagging this for FAQ to get it on the designers' list in case they think it worth an official ruling.)

Your thoughts?

:-)


Reach and Natural Reach are two different concepts. Medium (and small) creatures have a Natural Reach of 5' while Large creatures typically have a Natural Reach of 10'. This means that a Large creature can, with a standard non-reach weapon, attack at both 5' and 10'. What the Reach special property does is take the normal Natural Reach and make it "too close to attack" while that same distance is added on top as your new reach distance. So a Large creature with a reach weapon, instead of attacking at 5' and 10', omits 5' and 10' and attacks at 15' and 20' instead. One notable exception is the Whip which triples your reach with no minimum so a Large creature with a Whip, instead of just attacking at 5-10', attacks at 5-30'.

On the other hand, Reach increases like Lunge don't scale with size. It's just a flat 5' increase no matter what size you are and it isn't scaled by a Reach weapon. Remember that Pathfinder is a game of mechanically pertinent terms. Just as the Attack action is a specific type of standard action and not just any old attack, and just as wielding a 2-h in one hand is distinct from wielding it one-handed, so too are Reach and Natural Reach distinct terms. I did a quick search of the PRD and found only one non-size-based ability that increases Natural Reach; the Oathbound Paladin's Oath Against Savagery gives Holy Reach which increases your Natural Reach by 5' and this, being Natural Reach, would be factored into a Reach weapon. Such a Paladin would attack at 15-20' with, say, a Longspear while omitting 5-10' from his reach.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'm not sure if the lunge feat is a good example to be using. I would imagine it would increase your reach regardless of your size or other modifiers (applying after all other things, in other words) whereas spells like enlarge person or long arm would apply BEFORE being doubled by a reach weapon.

Silver Crusade

Ravingdork wrote:
I'm not sure if the lunge feat is a good example to be using. I would imagine it would increase your reach regardless of your size or other modifiers (applying after all other things, in other words) whereas spells like enlarge person or long arm would apply BEFORE being doubled by a reach weapon.

Yeah, I think you're right that Abnormal Reach and Longarm are better cases than Lunge, since they do look like cases that increase your "natural reach." (Kazaan, I wonder how you'd handle them?)

Edited the original post to change the presentation. Thanks for the catch!

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I would say that the reach weapon must be a weapon sized for large creatures to add 10' to your reach, and a weapon sized for huge creatures to add 15' feet to your reach. If the weapon is sized for medium or small creatures, it adds 5' to your reach. Although its not specified (since 2 times 0 is zero), it would make sense if a reach weapon sized for tiny creatures (a pixie pike, for example) would provide a 5' reach.

That is not based on a legalistic interpretation of the rules, but is just what makes sense.

If a spell like longarm also made the the weapon longer, it would be fine to have the reach weapon add in an additional 5' (so a medium sized pike would add 10' to reach), but if it doesn't also transmute the weapon the reach weapon would not gain even more reach from the spell.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

That makes since, moon glum, but I can't seem to find any RAW support for that interpretation anywhere. Or were you merely proposing a house rule?


I agree with moon glum's interpretation, though I agree I do not find evidence for it in the rules.

I would simply say that reach weapons of certain sizes effectively add X distance to your reach, and are not affected by anything else.

Increasing size, such as Enlarge Person, would double your natural reach but not a weapon's reach (unless you were holding it while enlarged and it was also enlarged at the same time). So, if you pick up a medium long spear after being enlarged it would add 5 ft to your reach and take away 5ft from your minimum reach. However, since you are large and would normally threaten at 5 and 10, you would now threaten at 10 and 15, but not 5. If you had a large longspear (or it had been enlarged) you would threaten at 15 & 20, but not 5 & 10 (with the spear, you could have another way to threaten at those ranges though).

Grand Lodge

This is a great question.. Now I don't even know what's supposed to happen if I'm using a glaive (reach) and am enlarged (M to L). I asked something about it before and came up with that I don't lose threatened squares and that my reach went to 15'. Is this right..?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

If you were holding the glaive when you were enlarged, the answer is clear. You have a total reach of 20 feet, but can't attack anything with your glaive if it is within 10 feet.


Neither longarm, abnormal reach, nor lunge specifically increase your 'natural reach'. They just say 'reach.'

By that distinction alone, I think the RAW is that they are not doubled.

I freely admit that it is not a particularly strong rules argument.

I also freely admit that I am arguing backwards from the assumption that they are not meant to be doubled.

Sovereign Court

I think option B is more in line with how it should work, assuming the reach weapon was enlarged with the target.

Silver Crusade

Ok, I think I’ve solved this one. As usual with the trickier questions, it helped to take some time off and get back to the relevant text with fresh eyes.

I accidentally clipped off the part from the Reach Weapon description that exactly answers our questions! :-P

It is as folks generally seemed to expect:

Reach Weapon wrote:
Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

That second bold part, which I skipped over in my previous consideration of the problem and didn’t even include in my original post, gives us the necessary piece, that reach weapons extend your reach based on their size.

Enlarge person explicitly calls out that it increases your equipment along with you. But Abnormal Reach and long arm do nothing to increase the size of the weapon. So the calculation works out as specified in option (B) in the original post, reproduced below.

Enlarge Person wrote:
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more damage (see Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage). Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size.

(This might raise a second question, about enlarge person, whether it’s a one-time size-boost, or whether anything you pick up while the spell is in effect is enlarged to match. If not, it might make a good tactical possibility to disarm or stun an enlarged creature to knock the effect off the weapon.)

(B) Based on Size of Reach Weapon

Doubling Some Things wrote:

5 ft. base reach

+5 ft. enlarge person
---------------
10 ft. reach
+10 ft. large-size reach weapon
---------------
20 ft. reach
+5 ft. Abnormal Reach
+5 ft. long arm
+5 ft. Lunge
---------------
35 ft. reach

Look good? Have I missed something else?

:-)


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Long arm and abnormal reach specifically elongate your actual limbs. I fail to see how that isn't effecting your "natural" reach.

Your natural 10-foot reach (for being large) is extended 5 feet, then 5 feet again. So now you have 20-foot reach. Since you are wielding an appropriately sized reach weapon, that doubles.

As such, I still think you would end up with 40-foot reach.


Reach weapons doubling the wielder's reach is not a hard rule. It says typically. The way I read it is that the reason they typically double the wielder's reach is because adding 5ft to reach doubles a 5ft reach. I don't think it's intended to be taken as "reach weapons double reach". Also, a large creature's reach is normally 10ft. so if you add 10ft. to that, it gets doubled.

Changing the wielders natural reach does not change the size of the weapon. A large reach weapon would still add 10ft to the character's reach and provide a 5ft window in which that character cannot reach.

Silver Crusade

Oh, I certainly take it that Abnormal Reach and long arm increase your natural reach. A Medium-size character wielding a longsword with long arm on will threaten two squares out, a Large-size character wielding a longsword with long arm on will threaten three squares out.

What I'm suggesting is that the increase to reach provided by a reach weapon is a static amount determined by the size of the weapon itself, like this:

[M] +5 ft., can't attack the 5 ft. adjacent to you
[L] +10 ft., can't attack the 10 ft. adjacent to you
[H] +15 ft., can't attack the 15 ft. adjacent to you
...

Basically, the thought is that long arm doesn't make your weapon any longer, and that the increase to reach provided by a reach weapon comes from the physical length of the weapon itself.

A medium-sized longspear ("about 8 ft. in length") doubles the reach of a typical medium-sized character because it adds +5 ft. to her reach and her reach is 5 ft., not because the spear applies a multiplier. (Compare the medium spear, "5 feet in length", and a medium shortspear, "about 3 feet in length." The implication, it seems to me, is that a longspear lets you reach further because it's longer!)

But, if you or anyone else are not persuaded, well, that's what we have the FAQ system for! It may well be worth clarification. (And, of course, I could be wrong!)

:-)


What about tentacles which are naturally bendy, or prehensile hair, again bendy - would they still be able to attack creatures at all distances?

Grand Lodge

Captain Beaky and his band wrote:
What about tentacles which are naturally bendy, or prehensile hair, again bendy - would they still be able to attack creatures at all distances?

Yes, natural reach doesn't cause you to lose threatened hexes. If you're a monk and get enlarged, you are still able to punch things right next to you even though you can now reach 10'. Without knowing the exact text of "abnormal reach" or "long arm" it seems like it would act in this same way.

edit: actually now I see what you're questioning. I pretty much disagree with everything that Joe says in the post right above yours on the premise that I'm assuming it works like enlarge does (without changing the weapon or your size, obviously).

Silver Crusade

claudekennilol wrote:
Captain Beaky and his band wrote:
What about tentacles which are naturally bendy, or prehensile hair, again bendy - would they still be able to attack creatures at all distances?

Yes, natural reach doesn't cause you to lose threatened hexes. If you're a monk and get enlarged, you are still able to punch things right next to you even though you can now reach 10'. Without knowing the exact text of "abnormal reach" or "long arm" it seems like it would act in this same way.

edit: actually now I see what you're questioning. I pretty much disagree with everything that Joe says in the post right above yours on the premise that I'm assuming it works like enlarge does (without changing the weapon or your size, obviously).

Well, if there's still disagreement then this is certainly worth some FAQ flags. Thought I'd got it solved, but looks like an official answer is still worth pursuing.

:-)

I included the relevant text of Abnormal Reach and long arm in the original post. I'll reproduce the full text here for reference. They're quite short.

Abnormal Reach wrote:
Abnormal Reach (Su): At 4th level, your limbs elongate; your reach increases by 5 feet.

(It may be worth noting that Abnormal Reach is a bloodrage power and so only active while bloodraging.)

Long Arm wrote:
Your arms temporarily grow in length, increasing your reach with those limbs by 5 feet.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Joe M. wrote:
Oh, I certainly take it that Abnormal Reach and long arm increase your natural reach. A Medium-size character wielding a longsword with long arm on will threaten two squares out, a Large-size character wielding a longsword with long arm on will threaten three squares out.

On this we are agreed then.

Joe M. wrote:

What I'm suggesting is that the increase to reach provided by a reach weapon is a static amount determined by the size of the weapon itself, like this:

[M] +5 ft., can't attack the 5 ft. adjacent to you
[L] +10 ft., can't attack the 10 ft. adjacent to you
[H] +15 ft., can't attack the 15 ft. adjacent to you
...

And this is where we disagree, I think. If that really was the intent of the designers, I think they would have used static modifiers instead of the current wording (which says "doubles").

Joe M. wrote:
Basically, the thought is that long arm doesn't make your weapon any longer, and that the increase to reach provided by a reach weapon comes from the physical length of the weapon itself.

Your argument is certainly a logical one, I just don't think it happens to be what was intended.

Joe M. wrote:

But, if you or anyone else are not persuaded, well, that's what we have the FAQ system for! It may well be worth clarification. (And, of course, I could be wrong!)

:-)

Or you could be right!

(Or as I prefer to think of it: You'd still be wrong, but would have succeeded in swaying the developers into agreeing with you.) :P

I don't really want to FAQ it. I'm terrified they will adopt your logical stance and take away my 40-foot reach. If it stays ambiguous, then I can continue to use it in my games (even if not in others). The moment an official ruling comes down, however, then my group will require me to fall into line.

I see it happen all the time. Someone brings up a corner case which effects very few gaming groups, but someone interprets the rules interaction differently and makes a big deal out of it. They use their logical arguments and "board charisma" to get people to FAQ the non-issue. The developers eventually step in and officiate a new FAQ entry which brings about a sweeping change that effects not just the corner case in question, but a great number of other things, often with unintended consequences. In short, pushy people got the rules changed even though the RAW continues to say something entirely different from the new change.

(And I'm not calling you pushy, merely speaking generally about my own personal observations.)

Silver Crusade

RavingDork wrote:
I don't really want to FAQ it. I'm terrified they will adopt your logical stance and take away my 40-foot reach. If it stays ambiguous, then I can continue to use it in my games (even if not in others). The moment an official ruling comes down, however, then my group will require me to fall into line.

Hah. Shhhh. Don't tell the group! :-P

I'm interested in the issue mostly for PFS purposes. Most of my play and GMing is PFS, and I've got an Aberrant Bloodrager cued up for my next character, so I'd like to have the question resolved to avoid table variation as a player and GM.

But I'm sympathetic to your situation here.

We'll see how it shakes out.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I tell the group pretty much everything, even when it might be disadvantageous for me to do so. However, if the official stance is unclear, then we do it our way.


How does a whip affect any of this? Would a large or huge sized whip still only reach out 15'?

Silver Crusade

Torbyne wrote:
How does a whip affect any of this? Would a large or huge sized whip still only reach out 15'?

My first guess, looking at the Balor, is that a whip adds +10 ft. to your natural reach.

But that's just a first guess based on the first monster to come to mind that uses a whip.

Scarab Sages

As a corollary, if your Reach is 35ft, what distances are eligible for attack?

Is it 30ft and 35ft (following on from the distance gap normally available to Large creatures), or is it 15 to 35ft, based on the closest distance that a Large creature with a Reach weapon can normally attack?

Grand Lodge

Lucio wrote:

As a corollary, if your Reach is 35ft, what distances are eligible for attack?

Is it 30ft and 35ft (following on from the distance gap normally available to Large creatures), or is it 15 to 35ft, based on the closest distance that a Large creature with a Reach weapon can normally attack?

It depends on what "your reach" is. If it's your natural reach then yes, you can attack anything within that distance. If it's a combination of natural reach plus a reach weapon then the minimum is the minimum of the reach reach weapon.


The balor entry looks to be an error as that's the same reach that it would have with any reach weapon such as a Longspear. The explicit purpose of the Whip is that it has longer reach than standard reach weapons. It should have been listed as 30' and is in need of an errata.

Silver Crusade

Lucio wrote:

As a corollary, if your Reach is 35ft, what distances are eligible for attack?

Is it 30ft and 35ft (following on from the distance gap normally available to Large creatures), or is it 15 to 35ft, based on the closest distance that a Large creature with a Reach weapon can normally attack?

Good question! Thanks for bringing it up. This points to what might be a hidden danger in the interpretation that I reject. I've refrained from mentioning it so far, but since it's come up anyway I'll wade into it.

If reach weapons work on a multiplier, then do they also double the "donut hole" that you can't attack, as well? If you insist on a multiplier interpretation, it might seem a bit *convenient* to multiply reach that you can attack but keep the distance you can't attack constant. So what you might end up with is something like this:

Double Everything wrote:

5 ft. base reach

+5 ft. enlarge person
+5 ft. Abnormal Reach
+5 ft. long arm
---------------
20 ft. "natural" reach
x2 reach weapon
---------------
40 ft. reach
+5 ft. Lunge
---------------
45 ft. reach, 20 ft. "donut hole" (can't attack within 5-20 ft., but can attack 25-45 ft.)

Which is another reason I prefer to take reach weapons to key on the size of the weapon itself, so that you end up with:

Double Some Things wrote:

5 ft. base reach

+5 ft. enlarge person
---------------
10 ft. reach
x2 reach weapon
---------------
20 ft. reach
+5 ft. Abnormal Reach
+5 ft. long arm
+5 ft. Lunge
---------------
35 ft. reach, 10 ft. "donut hole" (can't attack within 5 or 10 ft., but can attack 15-35 ft.)

Thoughts? It seems to me that the best way to make sense of all this is to take the bonus to reach and the inability to attack adjacent squares to be a property of the weapon dependent on its size, rather than some multiplier.

RD, I wonder how you handle this, with your as-RAW-as-possible approach? Do you see some way of getting the multiplier on the reach but not on the donut hole that I've missed?

:-)

Silver Crusade

Kazaan wrote:
The balor entry looks to be an error as that's the same reach that it would have with any reach weapon such as a Longspear. The explicit purpose of the Whip is that it has longer reach than standard reach weapons. It should have been listed as 30' and is in need of an errata.

That may be the case. Can you think of any other monsters that use whips, so we can see how their statblocks treat the weapon?


Immersion wise, a flat ten foot extension is wonky. It would mean only the size of the handle changes between a small and a gargantuan weapon. Rules side though if a large whip could hit anything in thirty feet... that's be a bit much.

Silver Crusade

Torbyne wrote:
Immersion wise, a flat ten foot extension is wonky. It would mean only the size of the handle changes between a small and a gargantuan weapon. Rules side though if a large whip could hit anything in thirty feet... that's be a bit much.

Both of these things are true.

:-)


I am 100% in Joe M's camp as it would be completely immersion breaking for me. How does a 10' spear increase your reach by 20'?

I don't just play a 5' cube (or 10' cube with Enlarge Person) with a bunch of numbers attached. I play a character in an actual (imaginary) world. If it doesn't make sense even within the fantastic natural laws of the fantasy world then it should not be in the game.

So, 20' arms because "Magic". Fine.
20' reach with a 10' weapon because "Rules". Not fine.


Per request, I am moving my spreadsheet here.

Ravingdork asked for the numbers for 45' reach w/15' doughnut. I get 232 squares.

For those interested, here are the number of squares:

Calculating Threatened Area:
Feet Squares
0' 1
5' 9
10' 21
15' 37
20' 61
25' 89
30' 121
35' 161
40' 205
45' 253
50' 309
55' 369
60' 433
65' 505
70' 581
75' 661
80' 749
85' 841
90' 937
95' 1041
100' 1149

To get the number above, take the number for 45' (253) and subtract the number less than the doughnut 15' (=10' or 21). Result of 253-21=232.

To fan the flames some more, I suggest looking at the feat Combat Patrol:

APG Combat Patrol wrote:

You range across the battlefield, dealing with threats wherever they arise.

Prerequisites: Combat reflexes, Mobility, base attack bonus +5.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you may set up a combat patrol, increasing your threatened area by 5 feet for every 5 points of your base attack bonus. Until the beginning of your next turn, you may make attacks of opportunity against any opponent in this threatened area that provokes attacks of opportunity. You may move as part of these attacks, provided your total movement before your next turn does not exceed your speed. Any movement you make provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

This can increase your threatened area quite a bit, making those lock-down by AoO builds nice.

/cevah


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think the new spell and bloodline feature are going to have to FAQed because they have no previous precedent. To my knowledge there is nothing besides enlarge person that give you a static reach increase. Lunge of course happens after the fact because you have to activate on each round. It is an interesting conundrum.

There is a good diagram for reach based on size here: HERE


Cevah wrote:
Ravingdork asked for the numbers for 45' reach w/15' doughnut. I get 232 squares./cevah

I get 240 squares doing it in Excel. I think that you forgot that your base size is not that of a large creature. So 0' = 4 squares, 5' = 16 squares, 10' = 32 squares, 15' = 52 squares, etc.

If you rerun your math, Cevah, let me know if mine is correct.


MechE_ wrote:
Cevah wrote:
Ravingdork asked for the numbers for 45' reach w/15' doughnut. I get 232 squares./cevah

I get 240 squares doing it in Excel. I think that you forgot that your base size is not that of a large creature. So 0' = 4 squares, 5' = 16 squares, 10' = 32 squares, 15' = 52 squares, etc.

If you rerun your math, Cevah, let me know if mine is correct.

You were right. My calculation was based on a medium creature.

Large creatures:
Feet Squares
0' 4
5' 16
10' 32
15' 52
20' 80
25' 112
30' 148
35' 192
40' 240
45' 292
50' 352
55' 416
60' 484
65' 560
70' 640
75' 724
80' 816
85' 912
90' 1012
95' 1120
100' 1232

I get 260, not 240.

45' -> 292
15' -> (10') 32
292-32=260

Graph:
45' with 15' doughnut
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX/\XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX\/XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I am using the assumption that 15' is the minimum allowable reach, since by default a large creature can hit 15'.

If you assume that the doughnut 15' radius is inside the reachable area, you do get 240.

/cevah


Threatened areas for...

Huge Creatures:
Feet Squares
0' 9
5' 25
10' 45
15' 69
20' 56
25' 92
30' 132
35' 180
40' 232
45' 288
50' 352
55' 420
60' 492
65' 572
70' 656
75' 744
80' 840
85' 940
90' 1044
95' 1156
100' 1272

Gargantuan Creatures:
Feet Squares
0' 16
5' 36
10' 60
15' 88
20' 124
25' 164
30' 208
35' 260
40' 316
45' 376
50' 444
55' 516
60' 592
65' 676
70' 764
75' 856
80' 956
85' 1060
90' 1168
95' 1284
100' 1404

Colossal Creatures:
Feet Squares
0' 36
5' 64
10' 96
15' 132
20' 176
25' 224
30' 276
35' 336
40' 400
45' 468
50' 544
55' 624
60' 708
65' 800
70' 896
75' 996
80' 1104
85' 1216
90' 1332
95' 1456
100' 1584

/cevah


Even if there is a way to increase natural reach they will likely errata reach weapon to only double the original natural reach. Having a medium sized creature reach out to 20 feet us something I dont think they will allow.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I like this discussion thus far (I love reach builds), but I have a question.

Since I don't have the Advanced Class Guide yet (waiting for it to hit the stores here in Europe), is the Longarm spell transmutation (polymorph) or a different subschool of transmutation?

Grand Lodge

What happens when you put the Boarding Pike of Repelling into the mix?


Damanta wrote:

I like this discussion thus far (I love reach builds), but I have a question.

Since I don't have the Advanced Class Guide yet (waiting for it to hit the stores here in Europe), is the Longarm spell transmutation (polymorph) or a different subschool of transmutation?

Quote:
School transmutation; Level alchemist 1, bloodrager 1, magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, summoner 1, witch 1

No mention of polymorph.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
redward wrote:
Damanta wrote:

I like this discussion thus far (I love reach builds), but I have a question.

Since I don't have the Advanced Class Guide yet (waiting for it to hit the stores here in Europe), is the Longarm spell transmutation (polymorph) or a different subschool of transmutation?

Quote:
School transmutation; Level alchemist 1, bloodrager 1, magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, summoner 1, witch 1
No mention of polymorph.

Awesome, that opens up longarm to be used with giant form II and undead anatomy III and IV. Depending on DM fiat also with the Elemental Body IV and Plant Shape III.

This looks like an awesome something for Dragon Disciples who can actually get those spells for huge shapes.

Liberty's Edge

My perspective is built around what is increased in all steps, I visualize the changes.
That is why I believe every increase of reach gets doubled when you're enlarged. As the spell practically speaks out that you grow by 2x on each side. (twice as tall, twice as wide, twice as deep) = 8 times as heavy.

Reach:

Base 5ft
Long Arm 5ft
Abnormal reach 5ft
Reach Weapon 5ft
Enlarge x2
-----------------
40 ft
Lunge 5ft
=45ft

You can take the weapon out of the equation, and you get the same result.

Base 5ft
Long Arm 5ft
Abnormal reach 5ft
Enlarge x2
-------------
30ft
Reach 10ft
Lunge 5ft
=45ft

If we take it by steps;
We all know 5ft base reach becomes 10 when you grow large.
We all know a reach weapon can be wielded at 10th reach (medium) and 20ft reach (large). That means the WEAPON's length adds 5ft (medium) and 10ft (Large).

Enlarge person doubles the size of any body part in any direction. So if you make your body parts twice as big, then you get twice as big body parts.
This means the unnatural reach and the long arms you had before the growth will now be even bigger!
Now we know Unnatural reach 5ft (medium) -> 10ft (Large).
The spell long limbs could/should/might work in the same manner. But as it is a transmutation spell it might just "add" it's effect as a static. But what speaks for long arms to increase (when going large) is that the body part it increases will not look the same if you are large and it only grew 5ft instead of 10ft.

Visualization of the long arm spell
Base reach (5ft)="B"
Long Arm (5ft)="LA"
Enlarge (x2)="E"

B. B+E
= == (2x effect)
B+LA. B+LA+E
== ==== (2x effect) - flexible
B+LA. B+LA+E
== === (only 1,5xeffect) - static

If you missed:
(large sized weapons adds 5ft (if you are normal sized), but 10ft if you're large, to your total reach.

Lunge however is not a physical aspect, it is movement, that's why I don't see it's effect growing, just because you are bigger. - movement speed doesn't grow with "enlarge person".


*raise thread*

Saw this the the night: Amulet of the Blooded, Aberrant:

Aberrant wrote:
This chunk of pitch-black onyx is suspended on a chain of silver. Strange whorls and tentacle-like shapes are etched upon its surface. The wearer gains a 25% chance to negate any critical hit or sneak attack (as the light fortification armor special ability). When making a melee touch attack, the wearer's reach increases by 5 feet. Moderate illusion; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item; Spells blur, enlarge person.

No mention of how, just a plain +5' reach for 15,000 gp. Light fortification is +1 bonus on armor, so minimum +6,000 gp over +1 armor. [Not counting the amulet you don't need +1 minimum to enchant armor effects on.] If you are already spending cash to get more reach, you just spend a little more.

/cevah

Silver Crusade

Benefit: +5' on melee touch attacks, light fortification

Cost: 15,000 gp, neck slot.

Not a trade I'd make with any of my current characters, but could definitely be worth it on some builds.


Nothing for my Crossblooded Bloodrager (Arcane / Aberrant; Use: disrupt any spellcasting within my reach with keen falchion), but for sure for my catfolk slayer! *walks away to look what she can sell for the amulet*

Paizo Employee Official Rules Response

Answered in FAQ!

FAQ wrote:

Reach increases and size increases: The description of Large or larger creatures with reach weapons says that they can strike up to double their natural reach but can’t strike at their natural reach or less. Do I calculate this doubling before or after effects that alter my reach like Lunge or longarm?

Double the base reach for a creature of your size first, then add in all the other abilities afterwards. So for instance, an ogre with the longarm spell wielding a longspear and using the Lunge feat would be able to attack creatures that were 15, 20, 25, or 30 feet away but not creatures that were 0, 5, or 10 feet away.


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Care to add a bone to our tiny friends and say a tiny reach is 5ft?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

James Jacobs has said tiny is 2.5 round down to 0 ft and doubled to 5 ft.


James Risner wrote:
James Jacobs has said tiny is 2.5 round down to 0 ft and doubled to 5 ft.

Yes JJ told us how he'd run in.

Unfortunately JJ doesn't qualify as a rules source for PFS to accept his statements. If they already knew the answer though maybe a quick follow-up to a FAQ on reach could be edited to add that tiny with reach gets 5ft.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

While JJ isn't a rules source, there isn't a rule for tiny. So whether the GM rules 0 or 5 ft is up to the GM. Would I rather have a rule? Yes, but PFS GM could use JJ's hint to inform their rules interpretation.

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