The Fires of Creation (GM Reference)


Iron Gods

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Silver Crusade

That works, but they'd provoke running away as they un-stealth. I ran it that when two entered your square they could flank. Only one got a sneak attack in at the start of combat. That's quite awhile ago though so my memory's a bit hazy.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It's true, but they should go full defense and then move; AC 22 and DR 5 should help them stay alive for a second round.

Silver Crusade

I don't allow full defense before a move since it's pretty silly. The AC you get is from rooting yourself in a full defensive stance as I interpret it. I allow move then full defense but the opposite is akin to...

Imagine a fully entrenched paladin moon-gliding in a turtle stance. I'm sure there's colorful ways have it work (dodging everything and what not) but I always ruled it as a rooted bonus.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

"I raise my shield to cover my vitals, then advance toward the giant, warily watching to see which say she swings her club so I can jump the opposite."

You can houserule that way if you want, but I wouldn't do so, and the rules certainly don't support it otherwise.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As full defense is otherwise a really terrible option, I see no reason to disallow it on a move. It gets a bit better if you add in Mobility as well.

Silver Crusade

Misroi wrote:
As full defense is otherwise a really terrible option, I see no reason to disallow it on a move. It gets a bit better if you add in Mobility as well.

It's actually great in tight situations where you can funnel for your casters/rangers; free AC!. But yes Shi, it is a house rule I've been consciously using for my campaigns. My players who like to flank have invested in mobility so it's all well and good.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Ayanzo wrote:
makes me wonder how they even use their sneak attack then. I was assuming that if two entered that square they could power-ranger flank within that 5ft.

Stealth is one way. Going at the start of a fight is another.

They're low CR creatures, though. The fact that it's harder than normal for them to get the sneak attack going is by design. The intent is that they hit with a sneak attack on someone in the first round or surprise round and then use stealth to set up another one if they don't just stick around and fight in melee.


So it looks like Meyanda is gonna stick around as an ally of the PCs, after events in Scrapwall convinced her Hellion is a blight on this world that needs to be put down. However, I'm currently not sure what to stat her as now. I'm avoiding any religious classes like cleric or warpriest; after having her zealotry shattered by the PCs, she does not like the idea of being the conduit of any god, regardless of alignment.

(I am also not sure if this is the place to post this but eh, rather not make a whole new thread, and this is the book where she's the star.)


Neongelion wrote:

So it looks like Meyanda is gonna stick around as an ally of the PCs, after events in Scrapwall convinced her Hellion is a blight on this world that needs to be put down. However, I'm currently not sure what to stat her as now. I'm avoiding any religious classes like cleric or warpriest; after having her zealotry shattered by the PCs, she does not like the idea of being the conduit of any god, regardless of alignment.

(I am also not sure if this is the place to post this but eh, rather not make a whole new thread, and this is the book where she's the star.)

I'm doing something similar. Maybe a ranger? She has that gnarly thing on her arm, but I'm playing her as a Steel-Breaker Brawler.

RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor

Ex-cleric...plus whatever new class she multiclasses into...maybe a slayer might be appropriate?


Chris Wallace 621 wrote:

Hello, I written a post on Nov 20 & looks like no response.

Our next session is Saturday & the group is coming up to Garmen invitation to gambling hall. The group consist of 6 characters & I was wondering if anyone had idea for games for a group that size?

The book mentions the games are rigged. Is there a mechanic on this?

My concern is keeping the players enjoyment & don't want the gambling to slow down the session to point where some players waiting & watching others gamble.

Any ideas or examples would be most helpful.

I understand I've missed the deadline for when you wanted an answer by, but my thoughts anyway.

Regarding rigged games, a very simple way is every so often (ever fifth game maybe) the players simply can't win. No matter how well they roll or play, they lose. If they protest, provide sense motive/perception/etc checks to determine that it might not be the most honest of gaming halls.

Regarding characters not wanting to gamble, if it's the character but not the player, allow them to play gambling NPCs. If it's the players, let the gambling players have 15 minutes or w/e is appropriate to gamble and then gently prod them forward so everyone can have fun. Provided the gambling players aren't rude, they'll continue in do everyone can have fun again.


Carter Lockhart wrote:
Chris Wallace 621 wrote:

Hello, I written a post on Nov 20 & looks like no response.

Our next session is Saturday & the group is coming up to Garmen invitation to gambling hall. The group consist of 6 characters & I was wondering if anyone had idea for games for a group that size?

The book mentions the games are rigged. Is there a mechanic on this?

My concern is keeping the players enjoyment & don't want the gambling to slow down the session to point where some players waiting & watching others gamble.

Any ideas or examples would be most helpful.

I understand I've missed the deadline for when you wanted an answer by, but my thoughts anyway.

Regarding rigged games, a very simple way is every so often (ever fifth game maybe) the players simply can't win. No matter how well they roll or play, they lose. If they protest, provide sense motive/perception/etc checks to determine that it might not be the most honest of gaming halls.

Regarding characters not wanting to gamble, if it's the character but not the player, allow them to play gambling NPCs. If it's the players, let the gambling players have 15 minutes or w/e is appropriate to gamble and then gently prod them forward so everyone can have fun. Provided the gambling players aren't rude, they'll continue in do everyone can have fun again.

Thanks for the information, it will help me for future gambling events. Overall the gambling session didn't last as long as I thought it would b/c the characters lost 100 gp pretty fast, just like in real casino.

The Exchange

Hey all, I am going to be running this adventure path starting in January but my group is going to be playing PFS style with a 20 point buy and six player party. Any suggestions on what i could do to bring the difficulty up to snuff?


The advanced template on most enemies and/or +50% more enemies in each encounter.

I'm running a PbP under similar circumstances and that's what I do on almost every encounter. I also roll several encounters into one to make the game move a little faster.

Shadow Lodge

I like maximizing HP. That at least lets them last a bit longer and lets them use some of their fun abilities.


I just finished the science deck today and my party saved Kohnnir Baine. I was kind of surprised that they different players found the following things disturbing:

- The Cerebral fungus child like questioning.
- The medical robots and their calm tones vs their violent actions.
- The auto-medical beds. Even though no one got caught in them.

I was pretty surprised by this and it has me worried about the later adventures, especially the Brain Collector adventure. Seems my players are sensitive to any kind of horror elements which honestly surprised me since I don't consider any of those examples particularly horrific.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Solomani wrote:

I just finished the science deck today and my party saved Kohnnir Baine. I was kind of surprised that they different players found the following things disturbing:

- The Cerebral fungus child like questioning.
- The medical robots and their calm tones vs their violent actions.
- The auto-medical beds. Even though no one got caught in them.

I was pretty surprised by this and it has me worried about the later adventures, especially the Brain Collector adventure. Seems my players are sensitive to any kind of horror elements which honestly surprised me since I don't consider any of those examples particularly horrific.

Did they find it disturbing in a fun way though?

Because that's at the heart of things.


Just give us the Fuzzy Kittens and we wont go easy on them


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Did they find it disturbing in a fun way though?

Because that's at the heart of things.

I have a mixed group so - two adults, two older teenagers (18 and 16) and two kids (11 and 9). The former found it fun the younger two found it creepy. But thats my call to play it that way.

Think I'll play Iron Gods with the older members of the group and just a straight converted Barrier Peaks with the younger two. That way they are still working towards the same goal and can even turn up and help each other at various "boss fights" but the younger two are just dealing with a straight up dungeon crawl.


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I have a player who loves pressing buttons to see what happens... anyone have suggestions on expanding the button pressing table?

Also, my party has NOT figured out how to put the zombie and skeletons to rest and they refuse to press the golden reset button thinking its something terrible.... they are coming up to their fourth time killing poor old Het and his buddies.

They have contrived lots of ways to stop them from reforming like scattering the bones, netting the bones and putting them in the electrical decontamination zone etc etc. Its amusing of me as the DM to watch :)


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Another question - how did you DMs reveal Khonnir's back story to your players - if at all?

It would seem like something useful for the players to know but it's also something I think he would not readily reveal since it may put him and Val in danger.

Silver Crusade

@Solomani

I had a player with the local ties trait.

I also introduced more by using Val as she cares deeply for him. I tend to make my NPCs memorable in those regards.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

If the PC's end up meeting Sanvil really late (like about the same time they rescue khonnir) and not only sell him most everything they've found, but give him detailed discriptions of everything under black hill enough to cause him to notify the technic league?

What happens if the technic league finds out about the ruins?

Heck, the PC's even offered to try bringing back a working robot to him.

How do I play his 'betrayel', if the pc's are pretty much openly giving him what he wants?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

They're fueling his rise to power:) level him up and put him in book 5 as a league cap'n:)


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Agree with Captain. My PCs almost came to a deal with Sanvill since he offered to buy them out of all their tech before attacking and they had saved Khonnir and were willing to leave the Torch unlit as the Steel Caves, in particular the science deck, scared the heck out of them.

Also one of my characters has the anti-robot background and another is a LN they both thought it would be fine to deal with the league - evil or not - because they were the legitimate rulers of the land.

But he also wanted the android ranger being played by another character and another player had the "against the league" background and personal story so that became a deal breaker. They ended up killing him. But they almost came to a deal. Kind of surprised me as a DM. Which I love.


A LN character would have a lot of issues with the league for two reasons.
1) The technic league is CE
2) The league are not the legitimate rulers of the land, the black sovereign is the ruler, the league is using devious methods to control/influence him.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Also, would the nanites affecting Khonnir baine be removed if he died?

Say that, by chance, Khonnir baine ended up drowning on the way out. He just gets brought back, but does this fix the nanite problem he has?


HNNNNNNG wrote:

Also, would the nanites affecting Khonnir baine be removed if he died?

Say that, by chance, Khonnir baine ended up drowning on the way out. He just gets brought back, but does this fix the nanite problem he has?

I would say yes.


Just finished Fires of Creation. Players killed Meyanda so had to do a bit of leg work to figure out where to go next. General feedback was that it was fun for both the players and myself. Specific feedback:

Robot Slayer character wants more magic items since he refuses to use tech items. Fair enough.

Another player wanted more general/typical magic items even if they were dressed up as technological items - like a power maul or similar.

Another played enjoyed the creep factor and wants more of that (wish granted soon in "Valley of the Brain Collectors. I also, by a fluke, linked this characters background to the mind flayers from the Dominion of the Black and that area so will work well).

Finally, all the players felt their were too many doodads and thingamabobs to keep track of - too many tech items with too many options per item (colour levels for example) to track compounded by the fact they need to also track charges its too much they feel.

I agree with this and will cut back the tech items in the next adventure when I rewrite it for my own campaign.

Overall a thumbs up.


Solomani wrote:

Just finished Fires of Creation. Players killed Meyanda so had to do a bit of leg work to figure out where to go next. General feedback was that it was fun for both the players and myself. Specific feedback:

Robot Slayer character wants more magic items since he refuses to use tech items. Fair enough.

Another player wanted more general/typical magic items even if they were dressed up as technological items - like a power maul or similar.

Another played enjoyed the creep factor and wants more of that (wish granted soon in "Valley of the Brain Collectors. I also, by a fluke, linked this characters background to the mind flayers from the Dominion of the Black and that area so will work well).

Finally, all the players felt their were too many doodads and thingamabobs to keep track of - too many tech items with too many options per item (colour levels for example) to track compounded by the fact they need to also track charges its too much they feel.

I agree with this and will cut back the tech items in the next adventure when I rewrite it for my own campaign.

Overall a thumbs up.

Honestly I would only keep track of charges for major items such as weapons or items you feel they'd use often. Stuff like keeping track of charges for low-level veemod goggles or something I think can be handwaved. At least, that's how I'm doing it.

The Exchange

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I go to my local public library and print the technology guide pages and then cut out the little item cards and give those to my players and they track charges/timeworn/what-have-yous on the back of them. At this point, halfway through Lords of Rust, they have like 50 of these little cards but I think they like having them and aren't too burdened by them. I only do this for the Tech items, especially since they usually have weird rules or long write-ups. Regular magic items or even specific, like a belt of giant's strength don't get special cards.


Hi guys,

I provide digital cards and I also bought the Paizo tech cards as well (which just shipped) but I have an issue with having to rewrite complex tech to be 5e compliant (which is a specific problem for me not general one for the AP).

I am strict with the charges because I want that to be a resource players to track making their use of tech items important. Though I think with everything being charge dependent I may make some of the tech items more powerful while reducing the number.

Again, many of these "issues" are specific to my group and campaign and not the AP. Doesn't help I am rewriting it for 5e as we go along.

Speaking of which, time to start working on Lords of Rust.

Thanks for the advice both of you.

Silver Crusade

I can't really commend on 5e. As the level increases, it's only going to get harder, and more difficult to maintain the balance.


Apologies if this was already asked, but I don't recall seeing it in this thread.

Is Khonnir Baine's spell selection correct? As an Arcane Bomber, he does not get Cantrips, and does not get access to an Arcane School.

At 5th level, that gives him 3/2/1, plus a bonus spell each level for his 18 int. I'm calculating 4/3/2, yet his spells prepared shows 5/4/3.

Am I missing something, or is this an error?

Thanks.

Silver Crusade

Khonnir Baine never became a combat option so I didn't look too deeply.

Looking at it, he doesn't have any can-trips, and he doesn't have an arcane school either.. I don't see any problems in his stat block.

He has opposition schools yes as part of the "School of the bomb" so that's the 'school' if you're referring to that.

EDIT: the spell allotments might be off, someone can correct me here though.


yup I know he gets opposition schools, but I was referring to the fact that school of the bomb replaces an actual school. so, if he didn't have cantrips and was still able to take an actual school (say evocation for instance) he would have 5 level 1, 4 level 2, 3 level 3. This is what he is listed as.

Since he can't actually choose a school, it should be 4/3/2. Like you said, he is pretty unlikely to actually be involved in a combat, but as I go thru the areas I kind of like to do some rough combat simulations in my head to see how his group may have handled things. ;)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Question, knowing my players the first thing they are going to want to do with the Power Relay Technological Artifact is sell it. Since there is no price listed and it's an artifact ... how should this be handled exactly?

I would imagine something like this would be quite expensive and go for a small fortune being an artifact and all, but at the same time I don't want my 4th level PCs running around with 50k worth of gold.

I would guess this was created as an artifact to make it un-craftable by PCs ... but yet they are going to go through great lengths to sell it I'm sure. What would be a reasonable sell price/method to handle this exactly?


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Treat it like the infinity gem in Guardians of the Galaxy. Nobody has the money to pay for it, or everyone is scared to own it (technic league will come knocking eventually,) or it has to go to the authorities to get vaulted, so nobody else can ever use it.


@Stonesnake
Are your players new to RPGs?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
leo1925 wrote:

@Stonesnake

Are your players new to RPGs?

No, each of my players has been playing for over 35 years, have played hundreds of sessions, and finished five other APs.

So I know these guys, they have managed to sell a piece of the Rod of Seven Parts and the Hand of Vecna in the past (when they did the Age of Worms AP). But in that AP they meet Tenser rather early in the adventure and he was able to use those artifacts, so there was a method within the AP to "remove" those artifacts and reward the players.

I just don't see any way to easily "remove" the Power Relay from the game without issues. I was just curious on how other handle this sort of issue within their game and looking for suggestions.


After everyone in the town is refusing to buy it, due to its immense price rag and fear of the technic league, have someone suggest they take it to the league themselves. Perhaps someone who is friendly to the league and not too friendly to the players. If they don't outright kill the guy, perhaps that guy who betrays them can suggest it (don't have the book in front of me and can't remeber his name). The technic league would love the opportunity to remove it from the PCs hands. And also everything else they own. And perhaps throw them in prison and torture - I mean, "interrogate" - them to learn all they know.

Then you could have an escape session before book 2, give them the opportunity to hate the technic league even more, and perhaps teach these old grognards that not every item should be sold.

Editor

I've got a similar issue with my players... they don't know what the heck to do with the power relay.
It specifically can't be used without a functioning generator, and the PCs had relit the torch before even heading to the warehouse (they arrived just as the ropefists were packing up and trying to get the hell out of Dodge).

The point is, for obvious plot reasons there CAN'T be a generator in Scrapwall, and the PCs have just disabled the only generator in the AP until book 3. They like the item, and they want to use it... but is this technological artifact just 50 pounds of scrap until we make it to "The Choking Tower"?

The Exchange

I took the easy way out that the book lists and when my players first interacted with it to disable it, they disabled it before fighting Meyanda, there is a 50% that it breaks which increases by 5% every time it is used or fiddled with, as such they identified it, they disabled it successfully but I also rolled my percentile and it came up as having broken.

Which was kind of a bummer but oh well, I know they weren't going to lug around 50 lbs of metal box with them for the off-chance they run into a generator sometime in the near future.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

They can always leave it in Torch and come back for it:)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Yeah, this Power Relay is going to be a problem ... I see it already. It's too powerful to sell, but yet at 50 pounds it's too simple to carry around and find some use for it later. My players are going to go to the end of the earth trying to sell this thing I know it.

Perhaps changing the weight to 500 pounds (or even more!) and making it unwieldy to carry around will take care of a lot of these issues. They can't easily sell it, they can't easily carry it, they can't easily use it. That might just make it too much of a pain for the PCs to bother with until later when they are more powerful. That might solve many of these issues...

Editor

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Stonesnake wrote:


Perhaps changing the weight to 500 pounds (or even more!) and making it unwieldy to carry around will take care of a lot of these issues. They can't easily sell it, they can't easily carry it, they can't easily use it. That might just make it too much of a pain for the PCs to bother with until later when they are more powerful.

Agreed. I think that the PCs are just not in a place to make use of this thing when they first find it. They'll have to leave it behind, carry it with them, or try to sell it.

It's already pretty hefty at 50 pounds, and judging by the art it doesn't exactly slip into a backpack. Someone would have to haul it in a trunk, or strapped to his back. I like the idea that bookrat had... carrying this thing around in public would definitely attract the wrong kind of attention, and trying to sell it would get them in pretty deep with the Technic League.

I imagine it'd be like if an average person today found a suitcase full of cocaine and tried to get cash for it—they'd be way out of their depth pretty fast, and anyone with any real connections would probably take the first opportunity to rob and murderize them. Better to keep the suitcase safe at home, until you... get more connections? With drug lords? This metaphor got away from me.


Stonesnake wrote:
leo1925 wrote:

@Stonesnake

Are your players new to RPGs?

No, each of my players has been playing for over 35 years, have played hundreds of sessions, and finished five other APs.

So I know these guys, they have managed to sell a piece of the Rod of Seven Parts and the Hand of Vecna in the past (when they did the Age of Worms AP). But in that AP they meet Tenser rather early in the adventure and he was able to use those artifacts, so there was a method within the AP to "remove" those artifacts and reward the players.

I just don't see any way to easily "remove" the Power Relay from the game without issues. I was just curious on how other handle this sort of issue within their game and looking for suggestions.

Then why wouldn't they understand the simple "it's an artifact you can't sell it"? what's so difficult about it?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
leo1925 wrote:
Stonesnake wrote:
leo1925 wrote:

@Stonesnake

Are your players new to RPGs?

No, each of my players has been playing for over 35 years, have played hundreds of sessions, and finished five other APs.

So I know these guys, they have managed to sell a piece of the Rod of Seven Parts and the Hand of Vecna in the past (when they did the Age of Worms AP). But in that AP they meet Tenser rather early in the adventure and he was able to use those artifacts, so there was a method within the AP to "remove" those artifacts and reward the players.

I just don't see any way to easily "remove" the Power Relay from the game without issues. I was just curious on how other handle this sort of issue within their game and looking for suggestions.

Then why wouldn't they understand the simple "it's an artifact you can't sell it"? what's so difficult about it?

Simple, because "why can't they sell it? Who cares if it's an artifact? That should only make it MORE valuable, not less. We are going to sell it and if that means going halfway across the planet, so be it."

Guys how have been playing for 35 years you aren't used to hearing the word "no". If anything that's a challenge to turn that "no" into a "yes". It's just easier to put up roadblocks (i.e. too heavy, too large, etc.) than to just say "you can't sell an artifact" as that will be seen as a challenge.

Yeah, yeah, "DMing word is law, you make the game, etc." that's not really how they roll. Basically there is one specific player who is a rules-layer/chaotic greedy player from hell. He's a fantastic player (and my best friend), but he will go to the ends of the earth to make a profit (he went into the Silverdisk Hall and is spending WAY too much time trying to figure out how to cheat at the gambling games and rob the place).

Anyhow, it should take care of itself, I forgot about the rule where it has a 50% chance to break, once it's broken it will become worthless anyhow.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Stonesnake wrote:

Simple, because "why can't they sell it? Who cares if it's an artifact? That should only make it MORE valuable, not less. We are going to sell it and if that means going halfway across the planet, so be it."

Guys how have been playing for 35 years you aren't used to hearing the word "no".

Sounds like a pain in the *ss. For being so annoying, I would teach them a lesson: Let them sell it in a bigger city, have the Technic find it out and let them be the buyer for an astronomical amount of gold, just to be caught and questioned by the League. Strip them of all their gold and equipment and send them on a boat towards the south and let them escape in Hajoth Hakdos or something like that.

I mean, if they want to blatantly ignore GM's advice, than make them feel the consequences.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

thats kind of harsh to do to your best friends, considering the 35 years they've been hanging out.

he's got a system for handling it, good for him:-)

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