Knee-jerk reactions from the Advanced Class Guide


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It's just a reflavored earth breaker (see the parenthetical note in the gear section). Insofar as I know, there are no official stats for the sugliin yet.


Sammy T wrote:
Apparently Shaman do not have Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally on their spell list, which pretty much obviates my current L5 Spell Focus: Conjuration/Augment Summon/Superior Summon PFS Shaman character. Here's hoping there is a Shaman archetype I like...

What!

If this is true it almost ruins the class for me.


Zark wrote:
Sammy T wrote:
Apparently Shaman do not have Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally on their spell list, which pretty much obviates my current L5 Spell Focus: Conjuration/Augment Summon/Superior Summon PFS Shaman character. Here's hoping there is a Shaman archetype I like...

What!

If this is true it almost ruins the class for me.

Saw this in the product thread. Maybe some hope yet?

Quote:
The nature spirit gives hexes like speak to animals, friend of animals (gives you summon nature's ally spells like a druid plus all animals in 30ft range get a sacred bonus based on your charisma. Your true spirit ability turns your spirit animal into an animal companion and at 20th level you get a magic cocoon ability that let's you permanently transform into animals, plants, or humanoids.


From what I've heard from someone who got their copy of the book, there is "Falcon Punch" in a Style Feat. This pleases me greatly. That, and I was told of Boots of Greater Heroism.


Kalvit wrote:
there is "Falcon Punch" in a Style Feat

... Is this a thing named "Falcon Punch"? Or is it a literal kind of "FALCON PAAUUNCCHH!!!! *1/3rd of the galaxy explodes*" kind of thing?


redward wrote:
Zark wrote:
Sammy T wrote:
Apparently Shaman do not have Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally on their spell list, which pretty much obviates my current L5 Spell Focus: Conjuration/Augment Summon/Superior Summon PFS Shaman character. Here's hoping there is a Shaman archetype I like...

What!

If this is true it almost ruins the class for me.

Saw this in the product thread. Maybe some hope yet?

Quote:
The nature spirit gives hexes like speak to animals, friend of animals (gives you summon nature's ally spells like a druid plus all animals in 30ft range get a sacred bonus based on your charisma. Your true spirit ability turns your spirit animal into an animal companion and at 20th level you get a magic cocoon ability that let's you permanently transform into animals, plants, or humanoids.

Thanks. That's nice.

Silver Crusade

Kalvit wrote:
From what I've heard from someone who got their copy of the book, there is "Falcon Punch" in a Style Feat. This pleases me greatly. That, and I was told of Boots of Greater Heroism.

Yeah, Pummeling Style + Pummeling Charge are pretty cool.

And dang, those boots (Boots of the Battle Herald) are nice, especially for an Arcane Bloodrager who won't need Boots of Speed ...

:-)

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wolverene:Dwarf Abyssal Bloodrager (Spelleater, Untouchable Rager, Primalist?) 2+, Fighter (Unbreakable) 1

Favored bonus to Bloodrage rounds
Trait: Glory of Old,?
Feats: Raging Vitality, Fast Healer, Steel Soul, Power Attack, flavor to taste

A no need for CHA, clawed, invulnerable, regenerating Bloodrager with a ton of Bloodrage rounds.

Silver Crusade

Alright, got a thread up on the reach question from earlier. See HERE.

:-)


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It seems there is a feat that let you add your charisma bonus to ALL saves...but only if you are a divine caster.

I haev not read it myself, but does anyone can think in a world where that feat is remotely balanced? (specially after no generic dex to damage feat?)


Nicos wrote:

It seems there is a feat that let you add your charisma bonus to ALL saves...but only if you are a divine caster.

I haev not read it myself, but does anyone can think in a world where that feat is remotely balanced? (specially after no generic dex to damage feat?)

A world in which casters rule?

Liberty's Edge

Nicos wrote:

It seems there is a feat that let you add your charisma bonus to ALL saves...but only if you are a divine caster.

I haev not read it myself, but does anyone can think in a world where that feat is remotely balanced? (specially after no generic dex to damage feat?)

[jk]Keeps people from having to dip two levels in Paladin. /shrug[/jk]

Actually, I don't really like any of the "replace X stat mod with Y stat mod" abilities and feats (though I admit some are needed in the current system). I would prefer for some flexibility as part of the core system (e.g., finesse weapons can use either STR or DEX) as opposed to the constant barrage of replacements in an attempt to help out MAD classes and corner cases. If you make enough exceptions to the base rules, someone will find a way to leverage the exception in a way it was not intended to be used. Better to build a more flexible base system with a set of fundamental design rules.

Liberty's Edge

thejeff wrote:
Nicos wrote:

It seems there is a feat that let you add your charisma bonus to ALL saves...but only if you are a divine caster.

I haev not read it myself, but does anyone can think in a world where that feat is remotely balanced? (specially after no generic dex to damage feat?)

A world in which casters rule?

*pulls pin from word-grenade*

*drops word-grenade in conversation*
[music]Cools guys don't look at explosions...[/music]


Nicos wrote:

It seems there is a feat that let you add your charisma bonus to ALL saves...but only if you are a divine caster.

I haev not read it myself, but does anyone can think in a world where that feat is remotely balanced? (specially after no generic dex to damage feat?)

And with this... I lose any faith that Paizo knows anything about game balance.


Lemmy wrote:
Nicos wrote:

It seems there is a feat that let you add your charisma bonus to ALL saves...but only if you are a divine caster.

I haev not read it myself, but does anyone can think in a world where that feat is remotely balanced? (specially after no generic dex to damage feat?)

And with this... I lose any faith that Paizo knows anything about game balance.

Maybe since Divine Casters have notoriously had they best saves in the game, if they give enough boosters theyll finally consider classes who have awful saves for a boost.


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Nicos wrote:

It seems there is a feat that let you add your charisma bonus to ALL saves...but only if you are a divine caster.

I haev not read it myself, but does anyone can think in a world where that feat is remotely balanced? (specially after no generic dex to damage feat?)

Don't feel bad, Paizo made sure to provide an appropriately powerful combat feat for the same level as full casters got this. Canny Tumble, here I come.

Spoiler:
Canny Tumble (Combat) Your acrobatic prowess distracts your foes. Prerequisites: Dodge, Mobility, Acrobatics 5 ranks. Benefit: When you use Acrobatics to move through an opponent’s threatened area or space without provoking an attack of opportunity from that opponent, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on your next melee attack roll against that opponent, as long as you make that attack before the start of your next turn.

It's got everything we know and love about combat feats. I always appreciate a feat loaded with non-synergistic prerequisites, for example.

Shadow Lodge

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Lemmy wrote:
Nicos wrote:

It seems there is a feat that let you add your charisma bonus to ALL saves...but only if you are a divine caster.

I haev not read it myself, but does anyone can think in a world where that feat is remotely balanced? (specially after no generic dex to damage feat?)

And with this... I lose any faith that Paizo knows anything about game balance.

I dont have the book yet, but Clerics, Druids, Inquisitors, and Warpriests are already pretty MAD, and Clerics and Druids Feat starved. Dont see a lot of Rangers going for it. So might not be that bad, depending on what it actually does. Oracles on the other hand, I really hope are not allowed to have it. They seem the only real problem here.

And honstly, Id be much more worried if they DID make a more open Dex to Damage Feat, because that would be stupidly broken.


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My knee-jerk reaction: I STILL HAVE TO WAIT THREE THRIGGIN' DAYS UNTIL I CAN DOWNLOAD IT!


DM Beckett wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Nicos wrote:

It seems there is a feat that let you add your charisma bonus to ALL saves...but only if you are a divine caster.

I haev not read it myself, but does anyone can think in a world where that feat is remotely balanced? (specially after no generic dex to damage feat?)

And with this... I lose any faith that Paizo knows anything about game balance.
I dont have the book yet, but Clerics, Druids, Inquisitors, and Warpriests are already pretty MAD, and Clerics and Druids Feat starved. Dont see a lot of Rangers going for it. So might not be that bad, depending on what it actually does. Oracles on the other hand, I really hope are not allowed to have it. They seem the only real problem here.

This.

That feat is only really bonkers for Oracles. For the other classes it ranges from good to very good, but nothing game breaking or a must have, I think.


Coriat wrote:
Nicos wrote:

It seems there is a feat that let you add your charisma bonus to ALL saves...but only if you are a divine caster.

I haev not read it myself, but does anyone can think in a world where that feat is remotely balanced? (specially after no generic dex to damage feat?)

Don't feel bad, Paizo made sure to provide an appropriately powerful combat feat for the same level as full casters got this. Canny Tumble, here I come.

** spoiler omitted **

It's got everything we know and love about combat feats. I always appreciate a feat loaded with non-synergistic prerequisites, for example.

Thanks, you just restored my faith in humanity... :/


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Please don't make attacks on Paizo, or anyone else for that matter. That isn't what this thread is for. Keep the discussion about the new book and your first reactions, not about Paizo's alleged failings.

Though it was posted elsewhere, I think the following staff message is pertinent here as well:

Chris Lambertz wrote:

Just a quick note here, because this has spiraled in a few different directions over the weekend: our moderation team and design team shouldn't be conflated with each other. We absolutely do not discourage discussion about specific aspects of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. If you think we've made an error, please contact us. The best way we can improve these policies is through communication through appropriate channels like the Website Feedback forum or via email, not in a discussion about feats.

I will also point out that we try to treat personal attacks the same way for everyone in our community (including staff). Please take a moment to remember that every one of us is still an actual person on the other side of the screen, and we can sometimes make mistakes. Let's keep these discussions focused on a discussion of content (even if it's negative feedback! Constructive criticism can be incredibly useful!), rather than individuals on a personal level.

Let's try to divert this discussion back around, please.

In the spirit of helping people make informed opinions, here is the Divine Protection feat in full:

Bovine Protection:
Divine Protection
Your deity protects you against deadly attacks.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks, ability to cast 2nd-level divine spells; blessings, domains, or mystery class feature.
Benefit: You gain a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier on all saving throws. If your Charisma modifier is already applied as a bonus on all saving throw (such as from the divine grace class feature), you instead gain a +1 bonus on all saving throws.

Did you catch the typo? Did it add some levity to the thread? :P

The Exchange

the cows protect you?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Andrew R wrote:
the cows protect you?

That depends entirely on who or what your believe in I guess. :P


Man, there is no cow level, how can they protect you?


I was considering buying the ACG, but a book that have side to side divine protection with canny tumble is at least dubious. Somebody please start giving good news about the book.


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I imagine that only oracles will make use of Divine Protection, after all what other divine caster would have a charisma of 14+?


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Nicos wrote:
I was considering buying the ACG, but a book that have side to side divine protection with canny tumble is at least dubious. Somebody please start giving good news about the book.

The aforementioned spontaneous Magus archetype is good news for me, at least ...


Anthony van Poppelen wrote:
I imagine that only oracles will make use of Divine Protection, after all what other divine caster would have a charisma of 14+?

That and bards and sorcerers willing to make a 1 level dip and play the right race or take the right domain - there are a couple that give a second level SLA which is enough to qualify as "can cast 2nd level divine spells."


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Anthony van Poppelen wrote:
I imagine that only oracles will make use of Divine Protection, after all what other divine caster would have a charisma of 14+?

It's a pretty powerful feat even for other divine casters, like clerics, who might have a decent Charisma score for their channel energy ability.

Why spend three feats on Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes when you can spend one feat and have your 14 Charisma grant you all of the above (and more should you ever pump it higher).

The Exchange

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Anthony van Poppelen wrote:
I imagine that only oracles will make use of Divine Protection, after all what other divine caster would have a charisma of 14+?

Every cleric i have seen in PF


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Honestly, on a Cleric, this Feat is a no-brainer at level 3.


Instead of stealing a class feature from the Paladin and giving it to every divine caster who wants it, why not instead make a general feat that allows any character to replace their Wis modifier with Cha for will saves?

Cavaliers, Bards, Rogues and other martial classes who have use of Cha would like it. It'd even make charismatic Fighters a viable concept!

They could also give it as a bonus feat to Swashbucklers at 7th level or something, making their saves less awful (Charmed Life is a joke).

Funny thing is... I remember suggesting this to Stephen during the Swashbuckler playtest, and he said they "probably wouldn't make a feat like that"... Instead... Casters get Divine Grace. -.-'


Lemmy wrote:

Instead of stealing a class feature from the Paladin and giving it to every divine caster who wants it, why not instead make a general feat that allows any character to replace their Wis modifier with Cha for will saves?

They could also give it for free to Swashbucklers at 7th level or something, making their saves less awful (Charmed Life is pathetic, BTW).

There is a 3.5 feat for that. The fact that the PF feat is stronger, and that oracles can add cha bonus to initiative, AC, all saves, twice for reflex is just mind blowing.

Liberty's Edge

Nicos wrote:
I was considering buying the ACG, but a book that have side to side divene protection with canny tumble is at least dubious. Somebody please start giving good news about the book.

The book provides 10 new base classes.

Intended only for humour.:
Including such surprisingly interesting options as:
  • Arcanist, AKA spontaneous-wizard
  • BloodRager, AKA spellcaster-barbarian
  • Investigator, AKA skillmonkey-rogue-replacement
  • Slayer, AKA dmg-dealing-rogue-replacement
  • Swashbuckler, AKA daring-do-rogue-replacement
  • Brawler, AKA no-mysticism-monk
  • Shaman, AKA not-nature-only-druid
  • Skald, AKA heavy-metal-bard(anger-management issues optional?)
  • Warpriest, AKA non-LG-paladin (it's a good thing)
  • Hunter, AKA ranger-druid-guy(the druids said she was something completely new, but I am skeptical).

Most of the new classes I am excited about playing (Arcanist, BloodRager, Warpriest, Shaman, Investigator, Slayer), and the rest I would consider for the right character idea (unlike, for example, the summoner). Also, the book provides new abilities and archetypes for existing classes, new feats, new spells, and new items (might be wrong on the items).

Finally and perhaps most importantly, A Tale of Two Covers.


drops divine grace and just picks up Divine Protection


thejeff wrote:
Anthony van Poppelen wrote:
I imagine that only oracles will make use of Divine Protection, after all what other divine caster would have a charisma of 14+?
That and bards and sorcerers willing to make a 1 level dip and play the right race or take the right domain - there are a couple that give a second level SLA which is enough to qualify as "can cast 2nd level divine spells."

You can easily take the wood mystery's Bend the Grain revelation or the Fate Inquisition (which can be taken instead of a domain).


Anthony van Poppelen wrote:
I imagine that only oracles will make use of Divine Protection, after all what other divine caster would have a charisma of 14+?

I've been told the ACG contains many different ways to mix-and-match class features, so there may be a way to finagle this onto a Sorcerer or Bard.


Athaleon wrote:
Anthony van Poppelen wrote:
I imagine that only oracles will make use of Divine Protection, after all what other divine caster would have a charisma of 14+?
I've been told the ACG contains many different ways to mix-and-match class features, so there may be a way to finagle this onto a Sorcerer or Bard.

I don't know. Is there a way to grab a domain, mystery or inquisition without actually dipping a class level?


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Lemmy wrote:
Funny thing is... I remember suggesting this to Stephen during the Swashbuckler playtest, and he said they "probably wouldn't make a feat like that"... Instead... Casters get Divine Grace. -.-'

You either play a caster or live long enough to see yourself become underpowered.


Coriat wrote:

Don't feel bad, Paizo made sure to provide an appropriately powerful combat feat for the same level as full casters got this. Canny Tumble, here I come.

** spoiler omitted **

It's got everything we know and love about combat feats. I always appreciate a feat loaded with non-synergistic prerequisites, for example.

Yeah, requiring Mobility as a prerequisite for a feat that encourages you to not provoke AoOs for moving in the first place seemed a little odd.

Lemmy wrote:

Instead of stealing a class feature from the Paladin and giving it to every divine caster who wants it, why not instead make a general feat that allows any character to replace their Wis modifier with Cha for will saves?

Cavaliers, Bards, Rogues and other martial classes who have use of Cha would like it. It'd even make charismatic Fighters a viable concept!

They could also give it as a bonus feat to Swashbucklers at 7th level or something, making their saves less awful (Charmed Life is a joke).

Funny thing is... I remember suggesting this to Stephen during the Swashbuckler playtest, and he said they "probably wouldn't make a feat like that"... Instead... Casters get Divine Grace. -.-'

There is actually a feat like that (Steadfast Personality, p. 157), but it has a fair few limitations - it gives a specific type of bonus instead of an untyped one, only improves your will save, and only works against mind-affecting spells. It's still a good feat for a class with a high charisma bonus (like a sorcerer or a mysterious stranger gunslinger) in its own right, but... Well, truth be told you're probably better off dipping a level of trickery domain cleric for Divine Protection.

Coincidentally Divine Protection is also a pretty incredible feat for the paladin archetypes who give up Divine Grace, like Empyreal Knight.


Coriat wrote:
Nicos wrote:

It seems there is a feat that let you add your charisma bonus to ALL saves...but only if you are a divine caster.

I haev not read it myself, but does anyone can think in a world where that feat is remotely balanced? (specially after no generic dex to damage feat?)

Don't feel bad, Paizo made sure to provide an appropriately powerful combat feat for the same level as full casters got this. Canny Tumble, here I come.

** spoiler omitted **

It's got everything we know and love about combat feats. I always appreciate a feat loaded with non-synergistic prerequisites, for example.

or you know, everyone picking up pounce by 6 bab...


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Athaleon wrote:
Anthony van Poppelen wrote:
I imagine that only oracles will make use of Divine Protection, after all what other divine caster would have a charisma of 14+?
I've been told the ACG contains many different ways to mix-and-match class features, so there may be a way to finagle this onto a Sorcerer or Bard.

The only way I've seen so far is to dip into cleric, oracle, or warpriest.

Even the aasimar with their divine spell-like abilities run into road blocks of needing more than one spell and not having the appropriate class abilities.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Funny thing is... I remember suggesting this to Stephen during the Swashbuckler playtest, and he said they "probably wouldn't make a feat like that"... Instead... Casters get Divine Grace. -.-'
You either play a caster or live long enough to see yourself become underpowered.

The worst part is... "live long enough to see yourself become underpowered" = "live long enough to open the CRB".

I'd repeat my GoT joke from the CW errata, but it got me banned last time...

Kudaku wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Instead of stealing a class feature from the Paladin and giving it to every divine caster who wants it, why not instead make a general feat that allows any character to replace their Wis modifier with Cha for will saves?
There is actually a feat like that (Steadfast Personality, p. 157), but it has a fair few limitations - it gives a specific type of bonus instead of an untyped one, only improves your will save, and only works against mind-affecting spells. It's still a good feat for a class with a high charisma bonus (like a sorcerer or a mysterious stranger gunslinger) in its own right, but... Well, truth be told you're probably better off dipping a level of trickery domain cleric for Divine Protection.

I see. That feat is inferior because non-casters can take it. And Paladins are an abomination! If a martial class gets Divine Grace, then casters should get it too!

So... Is the "There is no caster/martial disparity neither in power nor in design philosophy" line laughable enough already? Or do we need a feat that gives casters full BAB too before Paizo acknowledges the issue?

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