Goblin Squad Member
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Something tells me Nihimon and Dazyk feel the same :)You have no idea how much I wish I could work on this stuff full-time...
Lol ditto. I've actually had to take a wee step back from the wiki as my own business work was beginning to suffer :( I even ran myself down so hard working on the wiki late at night that I caught myself a nice bug that one of the kids brought home from school ;)
That'll teach me. ;D
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was wondering, is there already a public google doc where people can put down specific hex-data, most importantly what sort of exact resources drop there?
I was thinking to make something like that but not sure what sort of format to use on googledocs. Also, if something like this exists already, no need to do it a second time.
If I were to make someting I would use the hex-numbering on Harads(GW's) map here: Unofficial map
Hexnumbering to the left (top/down) then was thinking of the following columns: Stony node, Plant node, Trash node, Sparkling node, Settlement, Affiliation, Poi, Outpost, Other.
For the nodes, people could fill in each resource they have found in Stony node for instance.
3 problems:
Nodes can produce different resource tiers if I am correct so not sure if that should be differentiated somehow, or not. Could become messy and its not like you can really affect it much, so a simple listing of all resources found could be the best;
Quantity: for instance, the stony nodes in a Hex near Aragon gave a LOT of Brimstone of all sorts, but only a very occasional True Coal. This is rather important info so I think it should somehow be mentioned. However I am unsure if this fluctuates, which would complicate things.
Also, you will find more of a certain type of node in certain hexes (obviously) so we should maybe mention that too. Not sure if simply mentioning the type of Hex (Mountains, Forest, etc) would cover this. Not all mountainhexes are created alike in distribution of their node types, for instance.
I would like to hear if anyone has a good idea to tackle the above problems. Off course we could always start simple.
I am sure there are all sorts of cool graphical ways to show info like this(mousing over a hex gives a popup), but I am thinking tools like those will be far out in the future yet, and also I would like such a list to be easily searchable: on hex number, resource type and such.
Is it even possible to make a Googledoc that has like 1000 rows for the hexnumbers (and about 10 columns)?
I am sure someting like this would fit better into some database tool, but then you are talking a one-mans job again. I am hoping for the community to fill this out. Could always be ported into some cool tool later on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was wondering, is there already a public google doc where people can put down specific hex-data, most importantly what sort of exact resources drop there?
Every discussion I've heard of that topic agrees: that's strategically vital information, and will be considered confidential by the gatherer(s), to be shared only with those they trust. Several Settlements have already made it clear they'll not allow un-sanctioned gathering in their territory exactly so possible enemies won't know for certain what's where.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was wondering, is there already a public google doc where people can put down specific hex-data, most importantly what sort of exact resources drop there?Every discussion I've heard of that topic agrees: that's strategically vital information, and will be considered confidential by the gatherer(s), to be shared only with those they trust. Several Settlements have already made it clear they'll not allow un-sanctioned gathering in their territory exactly so possible enemies won't know for certain what's where.
Yes, I heard about that, and I think it will not work that way. If this game becomes a success then I can guarantuee you that this info will be public at some point, *unless* GW decides to constantly change resources around.
And I do not think they would do that since that would be the ultimate meddling of Godlike powers, and would artificially change and recreate the political map. Which is something that is supposed to be in the hands of the players, through War and Sieging. I can see some minor tweaking here and there though.
I agree with you that once the game is in full swing, it will be more difficult to move around the map and check resource types. Even then, that data will quickly make it to forums and public databases.
It is just a whole lot easier right now. However, I agree with you that Settlements will not willingly share any natural fluctuations in their resources(which tier is currently available and such), so in that light this database will be more of a base-point to work from. Even so I can see those temporary changes to hit the public boards pretty quickly too.
If Settlements manage to keep that info truly secret then that's pretty cool anyway. Will only cause more intrigue. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've created Resources by Hex in the Pathfinder Online (Public) folder.
Anyone should be able to edit that document, so feel free to organize it however you like.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've created Resources by Hex in the Pathfinder Online (Public) folder.
Anyone should be able to edit that document, so feel free to organize it however you like.
Fantastic, thanks!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, is there a way that I can adjust the first column so that it will accept 00.00 and 00.01 and such? It will change it to 0 and 0.01. Sorry, not much experience with xls. :) it does seem to accept -05.01 though.
The other columns should be fine.
Edit: never mind, when I put Set before it, it will accept the notation. I was planning to do that anyway, indicateing what kind of hex it is:
SET for a settlement hex, M for mountains, WL for Woodlands, HL for Highlands, CL for Croplands, WET for Wetlands, WAT for Waterhex.
Second edit: created the hex entries for 2 rows, 27 more rows to go to cover the EE map. :) I will keep adding the hex entries this evening, hopefully players can start to write down the resources they find in those hexes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Tyncale,
The only reason I don't participate in this terrain mapping project is because the terrain resources are not set/stable. Take a look at the Alpha forums and the changes the Devs have stated that are planed for the next (and future updates).
Many people are also concerned that GW will do a revamp of node locations right before EE, thus making any resource mapping during Alpha obsolete.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, is there a way that I can adjust the first column so that it will accept 00.00 and 00.01 and such?
I know you found a different way to do this, but still...
Personally, I would recommend having a separate column for each hex coordinate.
You can also prefix a column with a single-quote (apostrophe) to force it to take what looks like a number and treat it as text.
Many people are also concerned that GW will do a revamp of node locations right before EE, thus making any resource mapping during Alpha obsolete.
I agree with this to a point, but there's still value in gaining experience using (and developing) the methodology.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I now have a separate row for each hex coordinate, what would be the benefit of putting them into rows? I already entered 171 hex coordinates, marked for type and colored, so I'm not jumping up and down with joy to change that. :D
People will need to use Search extensively anyway, no way you are simply going to scroll your way to a certain hex, with 900+ rows. So people need to know the coordinates of the Hex they are in.
Kinda bummed they are completely changing the resources, though I do expect heavy tweaking during EE. But I think such a google-doc is the best way to gather this data: in the end I expect all the data to end up in some cool database-tool anyway. Still has to be collected though. Untill then, a publicly editable doc may be our best best.
I guess we will see some frustration when people read in the doc that a certain resource has been found there, but they never find any.
I see no other way to collect detailed resource data though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, were you maybe thinking of a format that would mimick the layout of the map more like this:
29 colums, with the first row being hex coordinates, then 4 rows for each of the Node-types, then the next row with Hex coordinates with another 4 rows of node types and so forth?
You will notice that I added a few more colums with other info, in the current format it is very easy to add more colums, for stuff like "Wars active" or "Company Smallholdings" and such.
@Tyncale,
The only reason I don't participate in this terrain mapping project is because the terrain resources are not set/stable. Take a look at the Alpha forums and the changes the Devs have stated that are planed for the next (and future updates).
Many people are also concerned that GW will do a revamp of node locations right before EE, thus making any resource mapping during Alpha obsolete.
Personally, I am *hoping* for this.
Also, part of the function of my company will be gathering and disseminating this kind of information, so I would rather these tables didn't exist. At some point, I have to draw the line between making the game accessible and proprietary information. Game mechanics fits in with game accessibility; spending hours crossing the map and tracking down rare materials is proprietary, in my book.
EDIT: This is worth doing for the Alpha, though, as it helps us and the Devs understand what the live game currently looks like in terms of materials distribution and rarity. But for EE, I won't be contributing to this, sorry.
I will take it that the answer is no
I believe the answer is actually "Yes." All of my stuff and Nihimon's stuff is based on what used to be called the "Raw from the Devs" file. I believe Dazyk's is also straight from the devs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, were you maybe thinking of a format that would mimick the layout of the map more like this:
I think Nihimon said columns, not rows. Having two columns for the coordinates would make sorting and formula operations simpler, like creating a connected page that lets you enter your current hex and tells you how far to the nearest "blue dye" hex, and where that is.
(edit: it seemed easier to do than explain, so I added two columns)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will take it that the answer is noI believe the answer is actually "Yes." All of my stuff and Nihimon's stuff is based on what used to be called the "Raw from the Devs" file. I believe Dazyk's is also straight from the devs.
That is correct. I have simply tried to present the data in a more user-friendly way.
As for the dev files, I have never had access to them, personally. I just worked with the data Nihimon reformatted from the devs.
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"Copy of PFO Wiki - Official Data" - to my knowledge it is straight from the Devs, untouched by Nihimon except to share it in his Google Drive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, were you maybe thinking of a format that would mimick the layout of the map more like this:I think Nihimon said columns, not rows. Having two columns for the coordinates would make sorting and formula operations simpler, like creating a connected page that lets you enter your current hex and tells you how far to the nearest "blue dye" hex, and where that is.
Ah, I understand. I think he is working on it now, theres a lot happening in that doc right now. :)
I hope it is still possible to do a quick search for an entire coordinate though, since the coordinate is now broken up in two parts.
It sure is a helluva lot faster then how I was doing it, however I would still like to add colorcoding and mention the Hextype. Maybe in its own column too?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, were you maybe thinking of a format that would mimick the layout of the map more like this:I think Nihimon said columns, not rows. Having two columns for the coordinates would make sorting and formula operations simpler, like creating a connected page that lets you enter your current hex and tells you how far to the nearest "blue dye" hex, and where that is.
Ah, I understand. I think he is working on it now, theres a lot happening in that doc right now. :)
I hope it is still possible to do a quick search for an entire coordinate though, since the coordinate is now broken up in two parts.
It sure is a helluva lot faster then how I was doing it, however I would still like to add colorcoding and mention the Hextype. Maybe in its own column too?
I did 20 sets. Your column can still stay, especially if it makes searching easier, and people can add and colour that as they fill in info.
(edit: 40 positive sets and 20 negative sets.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yep, realized I said the opposite.
So you do not have access to the original dev files or did you remove them from view?
All of the files are available at Pathfinder Online (Public). If you had direct links to the files themselves, those might not exist anymore as it's often much more convenient to create a new spreadsheet than the replace all its contents.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just found it odd that only one person in the community gets a copy of the dev stuff. There are other people working on a shared database.
Not true. The spreadsheet has already been shared with a number of folks, and Stephen has offered to share it with other individuals, he just doesn't want to make it public.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I did 20 sets. Your column can still stay, especially if it makes searching easier, and people can add and colour that as they fill in info.Nihimon, were you maybe thinking of a format that would mimick the layout of the map more like this:I think Nihimon said columns, not rows. Having two columns for the coordinates would make sorting and formula operations simpler, like creating a connected page that lets you enter your current hex and tells you how far to the nearest "blue dye" hex, and where that is.
Ah, I understand. I think he is working on it now, theres a lot happening in that doc right now. :)
I hope it is still possible to do a quick search for an entire coordinate though, since the coordinate is now broken up in two parts.
It sure is a helluva lot faster then how I was doing it, however I would still like to add colorcoding and mention the Hextype. Maybe in its own column too?
Awesome, thanks. I will follow your format since that way I can actually finish the basic layout this evening. :) Then I can take it more slowly with adding the colors and such. You went way out of the EE map though. :) I guess I can just add minusses to the first column though. Creepy to suddenly see someone else working on the document. :o
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Goblin Squad Member
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Awesome, thanks. I will follow your format since that way I can actually finish the basic layout this evening. :) Then I can take it more slowly with adding the colors and such. You went way out of the EE map though. :) I guess I can just add minusses to the first column though. Creepy to suddenly see someone else working on the document. :o
Per my edit above, I increased it to forty positive sets and 20 negative sets (at the bottom) we could move those to the top if it helps..
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Goblin Squad Member
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The positive coordinates to the right of Thornkeep only go till 06, after that the larger map goes on till 21, but the EE map is only untill 06. So as to not confuse people I would like to delete any entries above 06. The negative (to the left of Thornkeep) go untill -22 so I will add two more for that.
After that I will slowly keep adding entire coordinates in my columns since people need to be able to do a quick search for 04.-03 if they are in that hex and are wondering what kind of resources to expect there.
I think I may refrain from adding the letters before the coordinates, the colorcoding should speaks for itself and is much easier to apply.
But people can start adding resources now, since every hex does have an entry!
Thanks, Caldeathe. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just found it odd that only one person in the community gets a copy of the dev stuff. There are other people working on a shared database.Not true. The spreadsheet has already been shared with a number of folks, and Stephen has offered to share it with other individuals, he just doesn't want to make it public.
Can confirm. I was given access as my calculators require the spreadsheets as input.
They offered availability to anyone that has a specific goal and asks for it.Cool
Wasnt implying anything... Just found it odd that only one person in the community gets a copy of the dev stuff. There are other people working on a shared database.
I have a specific goal, asked for it, and didn't get it. But at the same time, everything I do is based off of what Nihimon shares and what he shares is what they would share with me, so why bother about it?
I was wondering, is there already a public google doc where people can put down specific hex-data, most importantly what sort of exact resources drop there?Every discussion I've heard of that topic agrees: that's strategically vital information, and will be considered confidential by the gatherer(s), to be shared only with those they trust. Several Settlements have already made it clear they'll not allow un-sanctioned gathering in their territory exactly so possible enemies won't know for certain what's where.
We could have our cake and eat it, too. For the purposes of this document in EE, we could establish an area around each settlement that that settlement has absolute right to determining what information is shared and what isn't. This would respect settlements' sovereignty while also allowing the community to build a quick-reference source for finding materials. So here is an example of how it might work:
Settlement's Sovereign Resource Territory:
1. The 6 Tower Hexes immediately adjacent the settlement
2. All other hexes no more than 2 hexes travel distance to AND from the settlement
-- The idea here is that it gives each settlement lots of space but recognizes the difficulty of enforcing who can do what in areas that are a long ways away due to a ridge line.
-- Where a hex is shared by multiple settlements, it would up to those settlements to determine what level of openness they are comfortable with.
What Settlement's Can Do:
1. Put up or take down any and all information about what resources are located in their designated Resource Territory
2. Flag all cells (Node:Hex) they do not want any public information available by changing the fill to black - within their designated Resource Territory
So lets say Freevale really doesn't want anybody knowing the only source of Pine Logs in the NE corner of the map is in their territory. Freevale would have the right to black out all or some of its Resource Territory, and take down any information that is shared in the public document, to protect that information. Freevale would not have the right to control what information is available for the 3 mountain hexes adjacent to their two mountain towers due to the travel distance restriction. The SW two hexes Freevale shares with Aragon would require the two allies to come to agreement over what level of confidentiality to have.
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Goblin Squad Member
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(stuff on settlement's being able to keep resources secret)
So lets say Freevale really doesn't want anybody knowing the only source of Pine Logs in the NE corner of the map is in their territory. Freevale would have the right to black out all or some of its Resource Territory, and take...
Large organized groups with lots of sneaky harvesters or spies will have the information stored outside the game on their own site, while the average/casual player will not have it. This appears to be in opposition to the devs' stated intent that if any outsider can know it, everyone should be able to know it. Everbloom and Xeilias and the Highlanders will maintain their own spreadsheets that have this information available for their citizens, spies will share the info between the sheets, and then everybody in any of those groups will have all the information, while outsiders will not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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sspitfire, I recently PM-ed Stephen with a very important issue that could make the entire document and initiative a moot point. I have not heard from him yet, but my qeustion was, wether it is the plan to change around the resource-tables after OE has started, on a regular basis, as a feature.
I know they will tweak and such, even after OE but what I asked was wether they will regularly take a resource from the droptable in a Hex and put it somewhere else, just to mix things up, and maybe to avoid just such a document to ever be useful.
I do not expect them to do this with Bulk Goods since that would be God-like meddling and change the political map on a whim, something that the players are supposed to handle: but I could see them do it with those 130+ crafting resources that are from Nodes.
I know that Nodes will deplete, and that different tiers can spawn but I am talking about completely removing a resource from the droptable of a Hex, on a regular basis.
I hope to hear from him, or that he chimes in.
As to your proposal: if the resource tables are meant to be persistant, apart from some much needed tweaks here and there, then I think the basic drop-info *will* become available in some database, somewhere, once this game gets thousands of players. Maybe not even through a google doc, it could be just the pet-project of a few people.
It is not really that hard to quickly gauge a few nodes and even when the world becomes more hostile, this will not be a problem.
However, dynamic *live* data, as in "this hex is currently depleted" or "this hex is currently spawning several tier 2 nodes" will most likely not be found on that doc or in that database. Since I indeed expect that to be valuable information, that many settlements would like to keep for themselves or their friends.
So I agree with you that there will be room for mystery and Intel still. We have not even talked about gushers, maybe those gushernodes move around. That sure would be valuable information if you knew which hex was currently spawning a lot of gushers. And I can see that sort of thing be dynamic and maybe even random.
But as long as the basic resource-spawntables of a Hex do not get changed around on a regular basis by GW, then that basic info will become available sooner rather then later.
Edit: and what Caldeathe said, he ninjad me. :)
Yeah I thought about the idea of moving things around. The economy requires a certain level of stability, so the devs couldn't do this kind of meddling en mass. But one thing occurred to me above all else: Even if they do decide to do something like that, a publicly maintained resource like this could easily be fully updated within a few days or a week or two tops. So how often would the devs have to re-randomize things? It would definitely have to be computer randomized- humans are too much creatures of habit. If they can pull it off, great. But I question how effective they will really be at nuking a table like this. Its not like the mob drop rates where it takes literally thousands of kills to begin to get an idea of what is going on with a certain mob type.
Gushers and depletion are probably the two best ways to upset this sort of information resource, especially if both are random. Depletion rates for node types in hexes or whole hexes could be randomly assigned and reallocated without players being able to easily tell what is going on under the hood, similar to mob loot tables.
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(This is just me stating my position, so you know where I am coming from.) Separately, one of my big concerns about liberalization of information is how it might affect character-character interactions, character-world interactions and player roleplay options. I understand yalls' arguments for doing the table; but my main reason for being opposed is that it removes or significantly reduces a class of role play- the explorer- and also reduces the need for players to interact with each other and the game world when it comes to finding materials. For example, there is no need to develop a relationship with other gatherers or explorers around the exchange of information when you can just go look at a table on-line. In short, it reduces the scope of gameplay and meaningful human interaction rather than expanding it, which is the opposite of what the other work we have done does.
... I recently PM-ed Stephen...I highly recommend you send requests like this through Bonny, our wonderful Community Manager. It's her job to deal with these kinds of things, and to insulate the developers.
bonny@goblinworks.com
This is the first I have seen her email address anywhere, so if this is what GW wants, they might consider adding it to the "Contact Us" page of their website.
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Goblin Squad Member
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(This is just me stating my position, so you know where I am coming from.) Separately, one of my big concerns about liberalization of information is how it might affect character-character interactions, character-world interactions and player roleplay options. I understand yalls' arguments for doing the table; but my main reason for being opposed is that it removes or significantly reduces a class of role play- the explorer- and also reduces the need for players to interact with each other and the game world when it comes to finding materials. For example, there is no need to develop a relationship with other gatherers or explorers around the exchange of information when you can just go look at a table on-line. In short, it reduces the scope of gameplay and meaningful human interaction rather than expanding it, which is the opposite of what the other work we have done does.
I hear you. You are quoting the best part of a MMO! Unfortunately, ever since the early days of Everquest, once the first loot- and questdatabase hit the internet, some of that Mystery and interaction started going out of the door, untill the only thing that was left is "grouping": form a group and kill monsters for hours on end, and talk about football, or don't talk at all.
In the early days, everything was a mystery: alas half of that mystery was simply bugs and incomplete content: quests that were never finished or correctly implemented, quest containers that ate your quest items that took you 10 days to gather and such. Now the entire item-database of an upcoming expansion is posted on the internet weeks before the expansion is released.
But I think player-interaction can still come from unexpected directions. It is hard to predict where and what sort of Player-emergent gameplay will form . I think it does need a good mix of fun mechanics and throwing up hurdles. GW has to ask themselves if a hurdle will do more bad then good though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Scarlette/Rob Flynn:
First, thanks for your work on these files, they have been very helpful. :)
1- Could you rename your "Crafting 9-19-14" and "Refining 9-19-14" files to add the word "Recipe" into the tile on your next update please?
2-What are the green lines in your files? I don't see a read me file (contact info, explanation on purpose of file and how to used it, reference links, a forum thread to post questions...), an explanation, or a link to any references to understand the color coding.
3-Do you have a separate thread where questions can be asked about your files?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have also recreated the Nihimon's Normalized Data spreadsheet. Hopefully someone will find this useful. It's missing Effects data (I'm still trying to organize those in a way that I'm happy with) and I still have some work to do with the Keywords in order to make it easier to know whether you're matching the Tier 3 Keyword, or just a regular Keyword.
I'll get my stuff updated in the next week or so- sorry if that inconveniences anyone!