There is a thread out there that asked about the unspeakable presence of Cthulhu. The question was answered, yet the thread was derailed with how a particular tactic with explosive runes could one-shot Cthulhu as written in Beastiary 4.
This thread is meant to be more on-topic rather than see any more derailed pages full of cannot, can to, type of discussions in a thread that has answered the base question (yes, Cthulhu's unspeakable presence is meant to provoke a will save each round).
My two cents, the tactic is risky yet can work if nothing derails the plan so long as Cthulhu has the stats that was stated in Bestiary 4.
I can't blame Paizo, because stating Cthulhu just sounds fun. They did cover all the bases in the stats that literature has covered, yet the written works on Cthulhu were more hints than a comprehensive guide on his abilities.
If it has stats, you can kill it.
GM fiat means that you can ignore the stats and make Cthulhu how you want (maybe as a 20th level mythic full caster?). Neither here nor there.
Ya, its pretty simple. If it has stats a level 20 caster can kill it by themselves. And while Explosive Runes has dominated that conversation on the other thread I keep bringing up how weak Cthulhu is to even Dazing Spells. So its not like you really need especially clever tactics. Hit him with a Mage's Disjunction and a Dazing Spell and laugh as he stands there dazed.
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While I would not want to allow my Cthulhu to be killable, per se, I would want it to be defeat able. There was one story by Lovecraft in which Cthulhu (IIRC) is chasing a man upon a boat. The man runs for his life but in a last ditch effort, turns his ship (something large) around, and straight up rams the elder terror. It falls into masses of goop and actually begins to reform, but the man escapes before any more terror can find him.
My short, comical explanation aside, Cthulhu is nigh indestructible. However, I see enough damage could be done to turn it back. Make it sleep once more in its city of R'lyeh.
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While I would not want to allow my Cthulhu to be killable, per se, I would want it to be defeat able. There was one story by Lovecraft in which Cthulhu (IIRC) is chasing a man upon a boat. The man runs for his life but in a last ditch effort, turns his ship (something large) around, and straight up rams the elder terror. It falls into masses of goop and actually begins to reform, but the man escapes before any more terror can find him.
My short, comical explanation aside, Cthulhu is nigh indestructible. However, I see enough damage could be done to turn it back. Make it sleep once more in its city of R'lyeh.
In Pathfinder terms, you would need to do enough damage to kill him every couple of rounds for as long as it takes for the stars to move out of alignment. That could be a lot of rounds.
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Here's something else to keep in mind about Cthulhu. We know that R'lyeh, and by extension he, exists in multiple worlds simultaneously thanks to his non-euclidean geometry. Temporarily stopping the small piece that manifests on Golarion does nothing about the rest that have simultaneously manifested across the multiverse. Once he's had a couple of minutes to get Azathoth online, it's only a matter of short time before reality as we know it stop existing. Azathoth is a cosmic power that makes Rovagug look like a toddler throwing a tantrum.
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Yeah the rune trick only burst down Cthulhu once. It does not defeat him.
Also any summon monster would instantly die from Cthulhu's presence, so I hope you have a neat way of setting off your plan. AND somehow setting it up, AND getting to the Big C without him noticing you.
All these tricks are great in a vacuum, but with any actual sort of role playing they break down without the GM even having to try.
I'll just sit here and wait for the stealth buff on Cthulhu.
Well, either that or a stealth nerf of Explosive Runes is inevitable.
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Remember that the wizard is not created to beat cthulu, he just can. Also crb only wizards are still insane haha, you could keep wizards to crb only and they would be tier 1 easily.
Sure it is. Its totally created to beat Cthluhu...in initiative!
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Here's something else to keep in mind about Cthulhu. We know that R'lyeh, and by extension he, exists in multiple worlds simultaneously thanks to his non-euclidean geometry. Temporarily stopping the small piece that manifests on Golarion does nothing about the rest that have simultaneously manifested across the multiverse. Once he's had a couple of minutes to get Azathoth online, it's only a matter of short time before reality as we know it stop existing. Azathoth is a cosmic power that makes Rovagug look like a toddler throwing a tantrum.
Some of that sounds like a bit of a stretch. For starters, where does it ever state that R'lyeh exists in multiple worlds simultaneously? The Bestiary 4 entry states the following: "It is fortunate indeed that Cthulhu is currently imprisoned on a distant planet within the sunken city of R’lyeh." That doesn't exactly hint of some kind of multi-planetary presence, but then there might be source material I'm missing.
Also, Cthulhu's been active in the past. Why didn't he just wake up Azathoth then if it was possible? He's the herald of the Outer Gods, but that doesn't necessarily mean he has some kind of awakening power over the 'Idiot God', does it? If such a thing existed, I'd assume Yog-Sothoth would be the thing to go to for such a power, since Azathoth is contained in space and ol' Sothy IS space, iirc.
Lastly, that bit about Rovagug. Azathoth is a primal force of nature that, thankfully, isn't smart enough to whistle, let alone act on its chaotic nature to reduce the universe to particles of dust. However, the Dark Tapestry is really only concerned, I believe, with the Prime. They're not gonna try for Celestia or Hell, Elysium or the Abyss, or gods forbid Axis, where every single deity in existence has a work office. Plus, Desna, a single deity, has been combating the forces of the entire Dark Tapestry for millions of years, apparently with a good deal of success on many worlds. Contrast this with the war against Rovagug: it took Desna, Sarenrae, Asmodeus, and TONS more full gods, many of whom DIED, to stop Rovagug's cataclysmic rampage eons ago. Even then they couldn't actually kill him, instead settling for a dimensional prison that had to be housed in an entire planet just to shut him away and hope he would never find a way to escape. If I had to choose in the event of a apocalyptically nasty throw-down between an awakened Azathoth and Rovagug, my money is on the Qlippoth who attained the divine right to claim all existence as his dinner.
Spell resistance is pretty sad defense. Those Explosive Runes should be sitting at Caster level 27 pretty easily and when you tack on a +6 bonus from Otherwordly Kimono you are already at +33, add on a +3 luck bonus, +4 from feats and what exactly does a roll of a 1 equal? Oh... 41 huh. Sucks to be Cthulhu.
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I would be surprised if spell bane wasn't up on Cthulhu, and a back up source severance, and some sort of contingency. We also seem to be assuming his stats aren't also 11 higher from belts, headbands, or inherent bonuses.
Sure he's beatable but this idea seems to operate under the assumption that there are no preparations on Cthulhu's part. I mean if he's aware of the wizard he could just wish them to a dead magic plane.
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In Pathfinder terms, you would need to do enough damage to kill him every couple of rounds for as long as it takes for the stars to move out of alignment. That could be a lot of rounds.While I would not want to allow my Cthulhu to be killable, per se, I would want it to be defeat able. There was one story by Lovecraft in which Cthulhu (IIRC) is chasing a man upon a boat. The man runs for his life but in a last ditch effort, turns his ship (something large) around, and straight up rams the elder terror. It falls into masses of goop and actually begins to reform, but the man escapes before any more terror can find him.
My short, comical explanation aside, Cthulhu is nigh indestructible. However, I see enough damage could be done to turn it back. Make it sleep once more in its city of R'lyeh.
No, the boat story means that after being killed he wants to go back to sleep. The man escape, he won.
I would be surprised if spell bane wasn't up on Cthulhu, and a back up source severance, and some sort of contingency. We also seem to be assuming his stats aren't also 11 higher from belts, headbands, or inherent bonuses.
Sure he's beatable but this idea seems to operate under the assumption that there are no preparations on Cthulhu's part. I mean if he's aware of the wizard he could just wish them to a dead magic plane.
Spellbane against Explosive Runes? Uh... sure. Even if that's that case there's plenty of ways to beat him. And really the stats don't matter that much. And the only way he can get a contingency is to blow his 1/day Wish.
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Always remember this. Any tactic players come up with this week CAN and should be used by the GM on the party next week.
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Given that you auto-succeed when dispelling your own spells, this is an awful lot of setup to use a bomb that is always a dud.
[sarcasm]Yep, because its impossible for non-wizards to get Greater Dispel magic isn't it. Yeah, it would be totally ridiculous if there were some sort of, I dunno, demon, that had Greater Dispel Magic as a SLA. Triple that if you could get it via some sort of summon monster spell.[/sarcasm]
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Given that you auto-succeed when dispelling your own spells, this is an awful lot of setup to use a bomb that is always a dud.
I think you failed a Perception check.
Honestly, what keeps me entertained in these threads is the responses that address a topic that has already been covered. I would prefer well reasoned responses, but hey variety is the spice of life.
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Spellbane against Explosive Runes? Uh... sure. Even if that's that case there's plenty of ways to beat him. And really the stats don't matter that much. And the only way he can get a contingency is to blow his 1/day Wish.I would be surprised if spell bane wasn't up on Cthulhu, and a back up source severance, and some sort of contingency. We also seem to be assuming his stats aren't also 11 higher from belts, headbands, or inherent bonuses.
Sure he's beatable but this idea seems to operate under the assumption that there are no preparations on Cthulhu's part. I mean if he's aware of the wizard he could just wish them to a dead magic plane.
Cthulhu has a huge treasure hoard and UMD using it's treasure to benefit itself is standard for intelligent monsters. So scrolls are an option, higher stats raise the DC's of his abilities, Initiative could be at least 10 higher, and he could choose 20 as his initiate roll using mythic wish, he could have simulacra of anti paladins to remove immunity to fear. That once a day wish means he could have an unlimited number of wish granting ifrit. Honestly all I think this thought experiment shows is that if the player is more ruthless and informed than the GM a level 20 wizard can beat Cthulhu. Mind you a fighter can beat a wizard if the wizard player lacks system mastery. If you want to think up some different ways to beat Cthulhu other than the explosive rune trick that would be interesting but I think any tactic will have a counter.
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What this thread really proves is that a player can beat anything if his GM is spineless enough.
Not necessarily. It means the GM prefers to give options to player then to restrict them. Make sure the players know that certain aspects will be powered up/down to accommodate for the power level of the PC's, so they don't feel forced into an arms race, and then make sure you don't shut down all their favorite tactics all the time[for instance, don't make all of the enemies immune fire damage because someone is playing a fire-based blaster with dazing spell, only a few key creatures needed for the plot], and you can have a challenging game that doesn't involve "I win everything" buttons. This thread is assuming the GM is using just RAW Cthulhu, and not modifying him to adjust to party tactics.
What this thread really proves is that there are "I win everything" buttons in high-level play.
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What this thread really proves is that a player can beat anything if his GM is spineless enough.
Yeah, it takes no spine to follow RAW. A GM with a spine is illiterate so he can't follow RAW. When players say, "but look at book", he laughs and says he can't read. Right?
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What this thread really proves is that a player can beat anything if his GM is spineless enough.
It takes a lot of guts to put Cthulhu on the table if you ask me.
And really, a GM who absolutely refuses to let the players beat the precious Lovecraft monster is a cheater.
So yeah, I'd much rather have a "spineless" GM than a control freak who wants to derail the PCs to their demise instead of playing fair.
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What this thread really proves is that a player can beat anything if his GM is spineless enough.
Nah, everyone knows it is Cthulhu who is spineless.
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Spell resistance is pretty sad defense. Those Explosive Runes should be sitting at Caster level 27 pretty easily and when you tack on a +6 bonus from Otherwordly Kimono you are already at +33, add on a +3 luck bonus, +4 from feats and what exactly does a roll of a 1 equal? Oh... 41 huh. Sucks to be Cthulhu.
Would suck if he rolled a natural 20 on his save...