Advanced Class Guide and potentially impending (limited) rebuilds?


Pathfinder Society

Shadow Lodge

So I've been browsing through the released Advanced Class Guide and a thought dawned on me.

Is there a chance that as this is added to Additional Resources that this time we don't get the same degree of rebuild rules that have previously been given with past beta classes being released in their final form?

I have a shaman, swashbuckler and arcanist - and as I've gone through them to see how the final form of the PDF impacts them, I've realized that it's in no way invalidated or reduced any of their abilities. The shaman actually got access to more spells and his spirits are identical to their beta form. The swashbuckler is also identical to his beta form. The arcanist also was improved in the final release as some of his exploits were increased in power (specifically the ones that allow elemental damage).

In the past, we also did not have the retraining rules from Ultimate Campaign as an available tool to change our characters if we found a single feat/ability was changed in a way that didn't meet our expectations.

So my question is this -- is there a chance (and a decent one) that we see rebuild rules for the final release of ACG in a different manner that previously given that (a) so many things are identical to their beta form, and when they are not its generally because they've been improved and (b) retraining rules are now generally available.

I imagine a lot of people would first vent frustration at more limited rebuild rules - but if the final class is identical to the beta, maybe it's not a big deal?

Shadow Lodge

Well, I know that my swashbuckler will no longer qualify for Slashing Grace now that the prerequisites changed.

Shadow Lodge

Dylos wrote:
Well, I know that my swashbuckler will no longer qualify for Slashing Grace now that the prerequisites changed.

Hmmm...

ACG Playtest 2 wrote:

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, proficient with chosen weapon.

ACG Final wrote:

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

EDIT: Caught Weapon Focus after I posted!


Is there any change to the Investigator's crafting ability? Or any changes to the investigator at all?

3/5

wakedown wrote:
Dylos wrote:
Well, I know that my swashbuckler will no longer qualify for Slashing Grace now that the prerequisites changed.

Hmmm...

ACG Playtest 2 wrote:

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, proficient with chosen weapon.

ACG Final wrote:

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

Looks the same to me. Nothing to stress over here?

In fact, this is one of those things that was boosted, since now it allows Dexterity to be used for damage, which it didn't allow in the last playtest.

It looks like the new one requires the Weapon Focus feat rather than just proficiency.

4/5

The biggest change I know of is that the warpriest no longer uses Charisma for any class features. I would certainly be disappointed if we were not able to adjust abilities accordingly when finalizing our characters. But John said that they would be taking such changes into account when determining rebuild guidelines.


Mr. Brock quote.

Shadow Lodge

Finlanderboy wrote:
Mr. Brock quote.

Thanks, that's just what I was looking for.

This part seems the most relevant:

Additional Resources wrote:
You will be forced to update your character - adjusting only the features that have changed, not rebuilding entirely—once the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide is released.

Which means no slapping an archetype onto existing characters or anything like that, just adjusting only the features that changed.

The only thing I've found so far that has impacted me was the change to remove medium armor proficiency from shamans where I had purchased a dragonhide breastplate. I imagine as part of the official release, I'll either get to pick up Medium Armor Proficiency or sell it back at half price?

Presumably warpriests get to reallocate their ability scores (since they no longer require Charisma) but not necessarily pick up any archetypes?

4/5

Right, for archetypes you'll almost certainly have to use the Ultimate Campaign rules.

Shadow Lodge

Anyone know anything about retraining synergies with the new classes and the old classes, for rebuilding class levels?

Especially with the shaman and the druid?

Grand Lodge

p. 27 of Guide to Pathfinder Society Organised Play, Version 5.0: wrote:

Playtests and Errata

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game is a living game, and whether in the form of a playtest that varies from its final incarnation, conversion from the 3.5 rules set to the Pathfinder RPG, or an errata or FAQ to the Core Rules, sometimes game elements change in the course of a PC’s career. The following guidelines allow players to update or convert existing characters to use the most current rules. Further explanation of conversions or updates may appear in the Additional Resources list to clarify rules available through non-Core Assumption material.

When rebuilding your character in any way, you must describe all changes on your next Chronicle sheet in the Equipment Sold/Conditions Gained section, and your GM must initial that section.

If a feat or trait changes or is removed from the Additional Resources list: You have two options. First, you may either switch the old feat for an updated feat of the same name in another legal source (if available), ignoring any prerequisites of the new feat you do not meet. Alternatively, you may replace the feat entirely with another feat for which you meet all the prerequisites.

If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment.

If a class or prestige class changes in such a way that you no longer have proficiency with a given weapon or armor type: You may sell back the affected equipment and only the affected equipment at full market value.

Grand Lodge

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Dylos wrote:
Well, I know that my swashbuckler will no longer qualify for Slashing Grace now that the prerequisites changed.
p. 27 of Guide to Pathfinder Society Organised Play, Version 5.0 wrote:


First, you may either switch the old feat for an updated feat of the same name in another legal source (if available), ignoring any prerequisites of the new feat you do not meet. Alternatively, you may replace the feat entirely with another feat for which you meet all the prerequisites.

You can keep your feat.

Grand Lodge

redward wrote:
The biggest change I know of is that the warpriest no longer uses Charisma for any class features. I would certainly be disappointed if we were not able to adjust abilities accordingly when finalizing our characters. But John said that they would be taking such changes into account when determining rebuild guidelines.
p. 27 of Guide to Pathfinder Society Organised Play, Version 5.0 wrote:

If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment.

According to this rule, Warpriests get a rebuild.

Shadow Lodge

You're forgetting that the guide will be changed before the ACG is legalized and those rebuild rules may change.

Additionally, we might not even get to use those rebuild rules.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

"Huh, yesterday every shaman was polite and well spoken Today they're just grunting and pointing at things. What the hell happened?

"This your brain on steroids.

Grand Lodge

Dylos wrote:

You're forgetting that the guide will be changed before the ACG is legalized and those rebuild rules may change.

Additionally, we might not even get to use those rebuild rules.

This part of the guide has remained the same. You can find the same text as I quoted above on p. 27-28 of Guide to Pathfinder Society Organised Play, Version 6.0.

However, there is also this information from additional resources:

Additional Resources wrote:

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Class Guide

All playtest versions of the ten new base classes from this book are no longer legal for play as of 8/14/14. Anyone playing the playtest version of one of the ten new base classes must have updated his or her character as of 8/14/14. Updating your character means adjusting only the things that have changed, but not rebuilding the character.

4/5

Phosphorus wrote:
Dylos wrote:

You're forgetting that the guide will be changed before the ACG is legalized and those rebuild rules may change.

Additionally, we might not even get to use those rebuild rules.

This part of the guide has remained the same. You can find the same text as I quoted above on p. 27-28 of Guide to Pathfinder Society Organised Play, Version 6.0.

However, there is also this information from additional resources:

Additional Resources wrote:

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Class Guide

All playtest versions of the ten new base classes from this book are no longer legal for play as of 8/14/14. Anyone playing the playtest version of one of the ten new base classes must have updated his or her character as of 8/14/14. Updating your character means adjusting only the things that have changed, but not rebuilding the character.

Since the Guide's language specifically accounts for Playtests I think it takes precedence. Meaning you can rebuild a playtest character for whom "a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered."

Liberty's Edge

I wonder if they could give people a small amount of retraining to tweak some skills, a feat, or gain an archetype.
Something like, the Pathfinder Society partially pay for your retraining options from a new book.

Heck, that could be an annual thing, to encourage people to buy and use the newest product.
"To support their Pathfinders being as effective as possible, the Society will pay the first 250 gold pieces used for retraining."
Or that could be a Prestige reward. I'm really surprised a little character retraining isn't included.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jester David wrote:

I wonder if they could give people a small amount of retraining to tweak some skills, a feat, or gain an archetype.

Something like, the Pathfinder Society partially pay for your retraining options from a new book.

Heck, that could be an annual thing, to encourage people to buy and use the newest product.
"To support their Pathfinders being as effective as possible, the Society will pay the first 250 gold pieces used for retraining."
Or that could be a Prestige reward. I'm really surprised a little character retraining isn't included.

John Compton's been putting that in as scenario rewards when you come across places that would help you retrain. I can think of one recent scenario off the top of my head, and I think that there's a second one out there that isn't coming to me.

5/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

Jester David wrote:

I wonder if they could give people a small amount of retraining to tweak some skills, a feat, or gain an archetype.

Something like, the Pathfinder Society partially pay for your retraining options from a new book.

Heck, that could be an annual thing, to encourage people to buy and use the newest product.
"To support their Pathfinders being as effective as possible, the Society will pay the first 250 gold pieces used for retraining."
Or that could be a Prestige reward. I'm really surprised a little character retraining isn't included.

Also unlike the Core Pathfinder rules. In PFS if an archetype doesn't change anything until a higher level than your current one, you can add the archetype. For example if you're level 3, and the archetype doesn't change a class feature until level 4, you can take it. If you're level 3, and the archetype changes something at level 1-3, your stuck with the base class.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Brian Lefebvre wrote:
Jester David wrote:

I wonder if they could give people a small amount of retraining to tweak some skills, a feat, or gain an archetype.

Something like, the Pathfinder Society partially pay for your retraining options from a new book.

Heck, that could be an annual thing, to encourage people to buy and use the newest product.
"To support their Pathfinders being as effective as possible, the Society will pay the first 250 gold pieces used for retraining."
Or that could be a Prestige reward. I'm really surprised a little character retraining isn't included.

Also unlike the Core Pathfinder rules. In PFS if an archetype doesn't change anything until a higher level than your current one, you can add the archetype. For example if you're level 3, and the archetype doesn't change a class feature until level 4, you can take it. If you're level 3, and the archetype changes something at level 1-3, your stuck with the base class.

I thought that was a generic PF rule. Or at least a PFS clarification of one of several readings of a PF rule.

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