|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I heard the Arcanist got a minor nerfing ??he now needs at least a moderate cha (i would say at least 12, maybe 14 tops) to perform in top capacity instead of... 7Cha 12 and Cha 7 both get to consume magic items / spells 1/day. If you want to do it 2/day, you need to come up with 5 (or more, if you want to play a race with a Cha penalty) point buy from somewhere.
I'm almost certainly going to be retiring my ratfolk brown fur transmuter from my weekly game thanks to this change.
cha 12 and cha 7 both get 1/day correct
but cha 12 with a +2 ench to cha means 2/day, with a +4 3/day and a +6 4/daycha 7, even with a +6 is still at 1/day
So I'm going to spend 36k (or likely more) GPs to effectively use a class feature, or just tank cha and forget about it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So I'm going to spend 36k (or likely more) GPs to effectively use a class feature, or just tank cha and forget about it.I heard the Arcanist got a minor nerfing ??he now needs at least a moderate cha (i would say at least 12, maybe 14 tops) to perform in top capacity instead of... 7Cha 12 and Cha 7 both get to consume magic items / spells 1/day. If you want to do it 2/day, you need to come up with 5 (or more, if you want to play a race with a Cha penalty) point buy from somewhere.
I'm almost certainly going to be retiring my ratfolk brown fur transmuter from my weekly game thanks to this change.
cha 12 and cha 7 both get 1/day correct
but cha 12 with a +2 ench to cha means 2/day, with a +4 3/day and a +6 4/daycha 7, even with a +6 is still at 1/day
yes
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Mark, can you also look into this? It seems like a weird hole in the rules
Hmm... So Swashbuckler / sleuths get a luck / panache pool = 1x charisma.
Mysterious Stranger / Sleuths get luck / grit pool = 2x charisma
Mysterious Stranger / Swashbucklers panache / grit = 2x charisma.
Is that an oversight?
|
I posted this question in another thread:
In the Steadfast Personality entry, change the
Benefits entry to “Use your Charisma modifier on saves
against mind-affecting effects”.Will saves, or Will saves against Mind-affecting effects?In the Steadfast Personality feat, change
the Benefit section to “Benefit: Add your Charisma
modifier instead of your Wisdom bonus on Will saves.
If you have a Wisdom penalty, you must apply both your
Wisdom penalty and your Charisma modifier.”
I just recently played a game and had a bit of discussion about it. I just wanted to bump this question again so that my game's GM would get the correct ruling to this post-errata mixup.
From my notes from discussions with the PDT earlier in the errata process, it should say mind-affecting in both places.
From my notes from discussions with the PDT earlier in the errata process, it should say mind-affecting in both places.
Oh, so it's a straight up nerf? Bummer, I thought we had some Samurai love there... So it's no better than the Irrepressible trait? I hope you don't change it further, I think this goes a long way to enable Cha-based builds for low Will classes like Swashbucklers, Cavaliers, Rogues, etc.
Also: does Slashing Grace work with Brawler's Flurry? Because if so, that means you are going to see a lot of Fighting Fans around...
From my notes from discussions with the PDT earlier in the errata process, it should say mind-affecting in both places.Oh, so it's a straight up nerf? Bummer, I thought we had some Samurai love there...
Also: does Slashing Grace work with Brawler's Flurry? Because if so, that means you are going to see a lot of Fighting Fans around...
It is potentially better if you have another source of insight bonuses. Which aren't particularly common, but could be true.
Are there any plans to ever fix the text of brawler's flurry? Do you count your offhand as light even if you are flurrying with a heavier weapon? Do you take the penalties for two weapon fighting at all, since you don't technically have to have an off hand?
Are there any plans to ever fix the text of brawler's flurry? Do you count your offhand as light even if you are flurrying with a heavy weapon? Do take the penalties for two weapon fighting at all, since you don't technically have an off hand?
And shouldn't you get your extra attacks at 6th and 11th level?
|
|
It is potentially better if you have another source of insight bonuses. Which aren't particularly common, but could be true.From my notes from discussions with the PDT earlier in the errata process, it should say mind-affecting in both places.Oh, so it's a straight up nerf? Bummer, I thought we had some Samurai love there...
Also: does Slashing Grace work with Brawler's Flurry? Because if so, that means you are going to see a lot of Fighting Fans around...
When did insight bonuses stack?
When did insight bonuses stack?It is potentially better if you have another source of insight bonuses. Which aren't particularly common, but could be true.From my notes from discussions with the PDT earlier in the errata process, it should say mind-affecting in both places.Oh, so it's a straight up nerf? Bummer, I thought we had some Samurai love there...
Also: does Slashing Grace work with Brawler's Flurry? Because if so, that means you are going to see a lot of Fighting Fans around...
Never. Thus why it's potentially better now if you have another source of insight bonuses.
Never. Thus why it's potentially better now if you have another source of insight bonuses.When did insight bonuses stack?It is potentially better if you have another source of insight bonuses. Which aren't particularly common, but could be true.From my notes from discussions with the PDT earlier in the errata process, it should say mind-affecting in both places.Oh, so it's a straight up nerf? Bummer, I thought we had some Samurai love there...
Also: does Slashing Grace work with Brawler's Flurry? Because if so, that means you are going to see a lot of Fighting Fans around...
I guess my highly charismatic Ghoul Swashbuckler appreciates it.
A little bit puzzled by this though, I never had Steadfast Personality pinned as too powerful though.
|
|
OK, was getting confused on you stating "another".
Though the downside of the feat is that if you have a negative Wisdom Score. For example, a character with 8 WIS and a CHA of 14.
It would be a Base -1 to Will Saves, then only a +1 vs mind-affecting, which the negative Wisdom score is somewhat reducing the benefits twice.
Or worse, WIS of 8 and CHA of 11. So a -1 to Will, as well as a -1 to Mind-affecting effect because you got the feat?
OK, was getting confused on you stating "another".
Though the downside of the feat is that if you have a negative Wisdom Score. For example, a character with 8 WIS and a CHA of 14.
It would be a Base -1 to Will Saves, then only a +1 vs mind-affecting, which the negative Wisdom bonus save is somewhat reducing the benefits twice.
Or worse, WIS of 8 and CHA of 11. So a -1 to Will, as well as a -1 to Mind-affecting effect because you got the feat?
The feat doesn't apply your negative Wisdom modifier twice. It replaces Wis with Cha, unless Wis is negative, in which case it applies both. If you had Cha 11 and Wis 8, the feat does nothing.
All he was built to do was cast personal range transmutations on allies and to a lesser extent get some mileage out of the huge pile of consumables that the party has accumulated. Between share transmutation, powerful change, and dimensional slide, he can easily spend 3 points per round. He starts his day with seven and has a 9 Charisma (it was 8 until he was unexpectedly aged into middle age). Now he can contribute to one difficult fight per day before being reduced to little more than a really good UMD score.
|
|
The feat doesn't apply your negative Wisdom modifier twice. It replaces Wis with Cha, unless Wis is negative, in which case it applies both. If you had Cha 11 and Wis 8, the feat does nothing.OK, was getting confused on you stating "another".
Though the downside of the feat is that if you have a negative Wisdom Score. For example, a character with 8 WIS and a CHA of 14.
It would be a Base -1 to Will Saves, then only a +1 vs mind-affecting, which the negative Wisdom bonus save is somewhat reducing the benefits twice.
Or worse, WIS of 8 and CHA of 11. So a -1 to Will, as well as a -1 to Mind-affecting effect because you got the feat?
Ok, I guess the next errata would clarify this feat so that the replacement effect will have no effect if it would result in a negative bonus against Mind-Affecting effects. =)
Ok, I guess the next errata would clarify this feat so that the replacement effect will have no effect if it would result in a negative bonus against Mind-Affecting effects. =)The feat doesn't apply your negative Wisdom modifier twice. It replaces Wis with Cha, unless Wis is negative, in which case it applies both. If you had Cha 11 and Wis 8, the feat does nothing.OK, was getting confused on you stating "another".
Though the downside of the feat is that if you have a negative Wisdom Score. For example, a character with 8 WIS and a CHA of 14.
It would be a Base -1 to Will Saves, then only a +1 vs mind-affecting, which the negative Wisdom bonus save is somewhat reducing the benefits twice.
Or worse, WIS of 8 and CHA of 11. So a -1 to Will, as well as a -1 to Mind-affecting effect because you got the feat?
I think you have confused me at this point. While the current errata is missing the mind-affecting bit, it already doesn't do what you are saying.
|
|
Sorry about that. Let us have the intended text up:
In the Steadfast Personality feat, change
the Benefit section to “Benefit: Add your Charisma
modifier instead of your Wisdom bonus on Will saves against Mind-Affecting effects.
If you have a Wisdom penalty, you must apply both your
Wisdom penalty and your Charisma modifier.”
With the text, "If you have a Wisdom penalty, you must apply both your
Wisdom penalty and your Charisma modifier.”, it has no indication that you would get a penalty. It just states use CHA, minus WIS if WIS is less than 0.
A more precise clause would be:
“Benefit: Add your Charisma
modifier instead of your Wisdom bonus on Will saves against mind-Affecting effects.
If you have a Wisdom penalty, you must apply both your
Wisdom penalty and your Charisma modifier. This feat has no effect if this total would result in a negative score”
Sorry, there might be some people that see it as Read as Worded, rather than Read as Intended.
What.
|
|
Benefit: Add your Charisma modifier instead of your Wisdom bonus on Will saves against Mind-Affecting effects. If you have a Wisdom penalty, you must apply both your Wisdom penalty and your Charisma modifier.
Using my example of WIS 8/CHA 11, there are 2 parts to the feat:
1 - Replace WIS with CHA when dealing with Mind-affecting effects
2 - If WIS is negative, reduce the CHA modifier by that amount
So the WIS of 8 and CHA of 11 will be a -1 to Will, as well as a -1 to Mind-affecting effect because you got the feat. Nowhere in that Benefit statement says that you would disregard any negative scores for the total. It simply says for "Mind-Affecting Effects, use CHA and reduce by WIS if WIS is negative."
My added statement, "This feat has no effect if this total would result in a negative score", would prevent any issues that would come up.
But that's what you want, not what the feat does. It's supposed to not be good for you if you dump WIS.
Also in that case, just get Iron Will.
you replace your wis with cha so your will is a 0 agaisnt mind-affecting then add the penalty so you're at a -1 for the saves still. that's what the feat says now
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
From my notes from discussions with the PDT earlier in the errata process, it should say mind-affecting in both places.
Oh goddamn it.
Would it be wise to make a "Advanced Class Guide Potential Errors II" for the things that were not fixed and the ones the errata potentially broke?
It may be too soon. The thread would just get swallowed up by requests for nerf reversals. There are certainly many issues left unresolved by the errata though.
Maybe better to focus on things that weren't addressed in the Errata,
i.e. have a thread NOT talking about stuff in the Errata that people don't like.
People already posted this stuff, it just needs to be collated,
and maybe filtered into "clear failures of RAW" vs "questionable design stuff".
|
Would it be wise to make a "Advanced Class Guide Potential Errors II" for the things that were not fixed and the ones the errata potentially broke?It may be too soon. The thread would just get swallowed up by requests for nerf reversals. There are certainly many issues left unresolved by the errata though.
Also, might be best to wait until we have updated pdfs and/or prd. The errata document isn't the easiest to read and apply on the fly, and there's enough confusion here with things like feat-table v. feat-itself. :-)
That's easily enough solved by pulling the text out of the pdf, sticking it a regular office document, and adding in some paragraph breaks between changes on the same page. I may have already done that, but I doubt that Paizo would be happy about me posting that anywhere online.
i made a thread for the possible oversights if anyone wants to use it, i'm not particularly into reading through the errata document
So, no word on whether an Investigator's ability to "cast spells like an Alchemist" means that they can use wands? I'm guessing that that will require an FAQ thread. :(HERE is a good comment reasoning in favor of Investigators being able to use wands just like an Alchemist.
The missing language from the Investigator writeup isn't a limiting factor, it was simply redundant.
So I'm going to spend 36k (or likely more) GPs to effectively use a class feature, or just tank cha and forget about it.Its going to be a lot more than that since you should almost certainly prioritise your headband over it. +2/2 Headband costs an extra 6000gp, a 4/4 one an extra 24000gp and a 6/6 one an extra 54000gp. Saving for the second stat will also seriously slow down getting the higher Int bonus.
Really all this does is push arcanists into using charisma even less as the stat point cost in getting it to a useful level isn't really worth it at all.
I plan on retraining out of Occultist and just using pool for dimensional sliding or DC boosts.
Ioun stones provide a boost separate from the headband. It's more expensive to begin with, but doesn't increase the cost of future headband upgrades.
I see that one exploit went unnoticed:
Spelldrinker Bloodrager loses DR, with their effective DR becoming zero, and increases from other sources adding to that zero.
Undead bloodline capstone doesn't say "DR increases by 3", which would trigger this wording, rather it says "DR increases to 8". So, as written a level 20 undead bloodline spelleater actually gains the fast healing and better DR.
|
|
Pertinent new information.So, no word on whether an Investigator's ability to "cast spells like an Alchemist" means that they can use wands? I'm guessing that that will require an FAQ thread. :(HERE is a good comment reasoning in favor of Investigators being able to use wands just like an Alchemist.
The missing language from the Investigator writeup isn't a limiting factor, it was simply redundant.
Well, not the answer I expected, or would have preferred, but at least it's an answer. It could do with putting somewhere "official" though.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Ioun stones provide a boost separate from the headband. It's more expensive to begin with, but doesn't increase the cost of future headband upgrades.The 8k enhancement bonus stones don't stack though so you are getting at most +2 for 8ooogp. The stacking ones cost 24k each so your +6 modifier is costing you 72000gp.
True, but a +4 ioun stone (seekers of secrets) is 'only' 32k
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
True, but a +4 ioun stone (seekers of secrets) is 'only' 32kIoun stones provide a boost separate from the headband. It's more expensive to begin with, but doesn't increase the cost of future headband upgrades.The 8k enhancement bonus stones don't stack though so you are getting at most +2 for 8ooogp. The stacking ones cost 24k each so your +6 modifier is costing you 72000gp.
However, they are very selective on which Ability score is upgradable beyond +2.
From a previous thread:
Ioun stones have a unique quirk. Only two sets of stones that give out enhancement bonuses to ability scores are actually stackable.
Crimson Sphere Ioun Stone
Onyx Rhomboid Ioun StoneThe reason they are stackable is the same reason they are so expensive. That is why the Scarlet and Blue Sphere Ioun Stone only costs a third of the price, even though it gives the same attribute as the Crimson Sphere Ioun Stone as above.
That said, the only stackable Ability Score you can get are INT and CON.
STR, DEX, WIS, and CHA all cap at +2 via Ioun Stones.
