Advanced Class Guide Potential Errors


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So Sacred Fist gt a lot of nefs limiting its mlticlassing.

All right, I'm ok with that.

But Flurry of Blows no longer using level as BAB? Sad, but Sacred Fist is STILL good. I'd still play a Sacred Fist.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Melkiador wrote:
So was there nothing about the favored class bonuses? I know there were some questionable ones.

Not that I recall, no.


Bandw2 wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
graywulfe wrote:
Xethik wrote:

Page 140—In the Pummeling Style entry, change the

Benefit entry to read “Combine your unarmed strikes
together”.

Huh... That's a really bad feat! Does nothing.

Something tells me that in the many edits this went through something got deleted/reworded here. I would suggest that after they officially announce the errata, first make sure they have not fixed this already, and if not post a FAQ thread.

Xethik is quoting a change to the feat's listing on the feat table, not the actual errata to the feat itself.

The actual errata for Pummeling Charge reads as follows:

Change the Pummeling Style feat’s introduction to “Your unarmed strikes weave together in an effortless combo, focusing on the spots you’ve weakened with the last hit.” Change its Benefit section to “Benefit: Whenever you use a full-attack action or f lurry of blows to make multiple attacks against a single opponent with unarmed strikes, total the damage from all hits before applying damage reduction. This ability works only with unarmed strikes, no matter what other abilities you might possess."

So actually, its a flat nerf to any builds that were using Feral Combat Training in conjunction with the feat, but that's about it.

feral combat training would override it though wouldn't it? if this a feat that applies to unarmed strikes feral combat training makes it work with it.

No, I'm afraid not. The "no matter what other abilities you might possess" is to stomp any specific circumstance (Feral Combat Training) one might be able to use anything but unarmed attacks for Pummeling Style.


Insain Dragoon wrote:

So Sacred Fist gt a lot of nefs limiting its mlticlassing.

All right, I'm ok with that.

But Flurry of Blows no longer using level as BAB? Sad, but Sacred Fist is STILL good. I'd still play a Sacred Fist.

No level as BAB and no flurry in armor. Not seeing anything that limits multiclassing.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

So Sacred Fist gt a lot of nefs limiting its mlticlassing.

All right, I'm ok with that.

But Flurry of Blows no longer using level as BAB? Sad, but Sacred Fist is STILL good. I'd still play a Sacred Fist.

No level as BAB and no flurry in armor. Not seeing anything that limits multiclassing.

I assume not giving double wisdom to AC.


Xethik wrote:
graystone wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

So Sacred Fist gt a lot of nefs limiting its mlticlassing.

All right, I'm ok with that.

But Flurry of Blows no longer using level as BAB? Sad, but Sacred Fist is STILL good. I'd still play a Sacred Fist.

No level as BAB and no flurry in armor. Not seeing anything that limits multiclassing.
I assume not giving double wisdom to AC.

That was 'fixed' with a FAQ and not this errata. In fact, the AC bonus now gives a dodge bonus so it stacks with everything.

Designer

graystone wrote:
Xethik wrote:
graystone wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

So Sacred Fist gt a lot of nefs limiting its mlticlassing.

All right, I'm ok with that.

But Flurry of Blows no longer using level as BAB? Sad, but Sacred Fist is STILL good. I'd still play a Sacred Fist.

No level as BAB and no flurry in armor. Not seeing anything that limits multiclassing.
I assume not giving double wisdom to AC.
That was 'fixed' with a FAQ and not this errata. In fact, the AC bonus now gives a dodge bonus so it stacks with everything.

Yeah, among other weird things, before it was a deflection bonus and thus didn't stack with ring of protection. Now it does!

Silver Crusade Contributor

Or shield of faith... that always annoyed me.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
graystone wrote:
Xethik wrote:
graystone wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

So Sacred Fist gt a lot of nefs limiting its mlticlassing.

All right, I'm ok with that.

But Flurry of Blows no longer using level as BAB? Sad, but Sacred Fist is STILL good. I'd still play a Sacred Fist.

No level as BAB and no flurry in armor. Not seeing anything that limits multiclassing.
I assume not giving double wisdom to AC.
That was 'fixed' with a FAQ and not this errata. In fact, the AC bonus now gives a dodge bonus so it stacks with everything.
Yeah, among other weird things, before it was a deflection bonus and thus didn't stack with ring of protection. Now it does!

WHY DID YOU DO THIS TO SLASHING GRACE? WHY MARK WHY?![/joke]

Designer

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Kalindlara wrote:
Or shield of faith... that always annoyed me.

Yeah. It should be a warpriest staple spell, that or prot-evil. It annoyed me too. So now it's better!


graystone wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

So Sacred Fist gt a lot of nefs limiting its mlticlassing.

All right, I'm ok with that.

But Flurry of Blows no longer using level as BAB? Sad, but Sacred Fist is STILL good. I'd still play a Sacred Fist.

No level as BAB and no flurry in armor. Not seeing anything that limits multiclassing.

So what is the perk of going Sacred fist now? No pretend full bab, no flurry in armor. might as well go normal Warpriest and TWF if you want to be a "sacred fist" now.


so does sneak attack damage stack with the pummel attacks? I'm unclear if this is part of the limit thing when it says no other abilities but unarmed strikes.


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Matthew Morris wrote:

ok so Slashing Grace reads: Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size. You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.

So why the hate for TWF fighters or swashbuckler types? Or just for someone who holds a wand in the off hand?

My Daring Champion / Exemplar -> Battle Herald character for an upcoming Giantslayer game just got nerfed right in the face with this change. Even if she wasn't flurrying her weapon, she's pretty nearly always going to have her banner in her other hand. I was expecting to have some things nerfed by the errata (like Arcane Deed), but this one took me completely by surprise. Guess I'll have to stick with my waraxe-swinging dwarven daring champion for my dex to damage character of choice. That makes way more sense for dex-to-damage than someone with a pair of knives, or someone's who's so quick they can stab you multiple times with a single blade.

Grand Lodge

Chess Pwn wrote:
so does sneak attack damage stack with the pummel attacks? I'm unclear if this is part of the limit thing when it says no other abilities but unarmed strikes.

That limit is almost exclusively to stop Feral Combat Training. As long as you're using unarmed strikes, sneak attack to your heart's content.


Chess Pwn wrote:
graystone wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

So Sacred Fist gt a lot of nefs limiting its mlticlassing.

All right, I'm ok with that.

But Flurry of Blows no longer using level as BAB? Sad, but Sacred Fist is STILL good. I'd still play a Sacred Fist.

No level as BAB and no flurry in armor. Not seeing anything that limits multiclassing.
So what is the perk of going Sacred fist now? No pretend full bab, no flurry in armor. might as well go normal Warpriest and TWF if you want to be a "sacred fist" now.

AC Bonus

Makes Unarmed Combat pretty good
Gets the equivalent of 2wf feats for free
Gets Evasion for Fort Save
Ki Pool is better than Sacred Armor and allows you to take feats requiring Ki

It's still a great archetype. It now just works as it was intended.

Edit: When I said limits multiclassing I meant the changes that restrict your armor and how it makes Monk and Warpriest AC bonus count as the same thing instead of adding together.


I'm really surprised the brawler's flurry wasn't fixed. That thing doesn't even work as written.


I'm very happy with the Shaman changes and consider it a buff. The loss of "Nothing is safe" Evil Eye is sad but oh well. My big complaint here is the FCB while I feel pretty obviously adds the Cleric spells to the Shaman's spell list, but RAW the spells known FAQ would rule this out. I'm going to start a Rule Questions thread for this.


Chess Pwn wrote:
graystone wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

So Sacred Fist gt a lot of nefs limiting its mlticlassing.

All right, I'm ok with that.

But Flurry of Blows no longer using level as BAB? Sad, but Sacred Fist is STILL good. I'd still play a Sacred Fist.

No level as BAB and no flurry in armor. Not seeing anything that limits multiclassing.
So what is the perk of going Sacred fist now? No pretend full bab, no flurry in armor. might as well go normal Warpriest and TWF if you want to be a "sacred fist" now.

Well you do get to lose your armor for wis to AC... Honestly, a normal Warpriest with a sacred weapon unarmed attack is looking better at this point than a sacred fist for an unarmed character unless unarmored is important.


Does the new text on slashing grace disallows the use of the feat when the user is grappled?


Overall I think this errata helped a lot with the ACG :)

The major errors are fixed and some balance tuning was conducted on particularly powerful items.

Contributor

Kalindlara wrote:

I'm super-disappointed about TWF with sawtooth sabres being Str-only again. :(

(My Red Mantis Assassin, specifically, is disappointed.)

You could take three levels of unchained rogue.


Errata Page 6 wrote:
Page 156—In the Seething Hatred feat’s Benefit section, in the last sentence, add “favored target” before “bonus on damage”.
Seething Hatred wrote:

Prerequisite(s): Studied target class feature.

Benefit: Select a creature type from the Ranger Favored Enemies table. When you designate a creature of this type as your studied target and hit it with a melee or ranged weapon attack, your favored target bonus on damage rolls against it is doubled.

Is that meant to be "studied target"? Is this an errata potential error?


Insain Dragoon wrote:

Overall I think this errata helped a lot with the ACG :)

The major errors are fixed and some balance tuning was conducted on particularly powerful items.

For me, it's a mixed bag. Lot's of stuff fixed but in quite a few places I think they went overboard and hammered things into the ground that didn't need it.


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I'd rather something be underpowered and useless than it be overpowered, but that's just me.

The only area I'm disappointed for real is that the devs didn't use this errata to help the Swashbuckler get on par with other martials or give the Warpriest 2 more skill points.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Alexander Augunas wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:

I'm super-disappointed about TWF with sawtooth sabres being Str-only again. :(

(My Red Mantis Assassin, specifically, is disappointed.)

You could take three levels of unchained rogue.

Can they choose the sawtooth sabre? I thought the rogue had to choose a category of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse - I don't think sabres count even if you do have Swashbuckler's Finesse. Same reason you can't make them agile.

(Three levels of rogue didn't really fit into the concept as it existed, in any case.)

Scarab Sages

My guess on the Slashing Grace off hand change is that they wanted the Unchained Rogue to be more special. Now it's the only way other than the Agile Weapon property to get DEX to Damage on both weapons while TWF. At least I think it is. Well, I guess you could TWF with rapiers and Fencing Grace.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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Why was opportune parry and riposte removed from Amateur Swashbuckler and a number of archetypes that give panache? That's kind of the big flavor reason to ever get panache deeds.

Divine Protection lets a swashbuckler use the ability after a roll, but before the results are revealed. Why didn't it let you do that with charmed life, too? That was a massive weakness with that ability that made it really lackluster.

Grand Lodge

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Hmm... So Swashbuckler / sleuths get a luck / panache pool = 1x charisma.

Mysterious Stranger / Sleuths get luck / grit pool = 2x charisma

Mysterious Stranger / Swashbucklers panache / grit = 2x charisma.

Is that an oversight?

Scarab Sages

I would make a similar guess for Opportune Parry and Riposte. Now it's an ability that only (or mainly) the Swashbuckler can get, so it makes it more unique to the class.


I was under the impression that Parry and Riposte were pretty meh deeds, so making them unique to draw players to Swash is kinda..... ehhh.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

You apparently haven't had high AC swashbucklers in your games, intentionally provoking AoOs to parry and riposte on for free attacks.

Scarab Sages

It's one of the iconic mechanics of the Swashbuckler class. Prior to the ACG, I believe it only existed as part of the Duelist prestige class. With the pre-errata ACG, anyone could get it with a feat, and Daring Champion was often considered a better Swashbuckler than the Swashbuckler. Limiting that mechanic to the Swashbuckler class (and I think Flamboyant Arcana for Magus), it means if you want to build a character that fights like a Swashbuckler, your best option is the Swashbuckler class.


The pummeling style feats now specifically state full attack action and flurry of blows. Brawler's flurry isn't the same as flurry of blows. Does that mean brawler's flurry can't be used with Pummeling Style despite brawler levels still being in the prerequisites in order to qualify earlier than the regular BAB prereq?

EDIT: Oh I get it now. Brawler's flurry is listed as a "full-attack action" so it ought work with Pummeling Style with no issues. I hope.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
You apparently haven't had high AC swashbucklers in your games, intentionally provoking AoOs to parry and riposte on for free attacks.

Then when you stop moving you don't have an immediate action to spend on charmed life when someone casts any spell on you. Yeah, I know how it works. Parry and Riposte are fine if we're talking about a lowish level humanoid only campaign.

A more effective errata for the Swashbuckler would be to give them permanent charmed life or even to make it a free action.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Yeah, most people who want opportune parry and riposte for flavor, not power. It's not that great of a deed -- really the swashbuckler has a really lousy 1st level since it's an offensive class that only gets one "okay" offensive ability to start with. I would have preferred they make the swashbuckler more worth playing than nerfing all the multiclass archetypes.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Then when you stop moving you don't have an immediate action to spend on charmed life when someone casts any spell on you. Yeah, I know how it works.

No, you don't. Immediate actions are available after your turn ends. The immediate action you use on your turn does not deny you your next immediate. Your immediate denies your next swift. Regardless, Charmed Life is pretty s@+!ty.

Immediate Action wrote:
You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn).


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Then when you stop moving you don't have an immediate action to spend on charmed life when someone casts any spell on you. Yeah, I know how it works.

No, you don't. Immediate actions are available after your turn ends. The immediate action you use on your turn does not deny you your next immediate. Your immediate denies your next swift. Regardless, Charmed Life is pretty s@@~ty.

Immediate Action wrote:
You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn).

Using an immediate action on your turn actually changes the action type to swift. And if you parried the last round you thus cannot do it.

But yeah, charmed life isn't that awesome


So can someone explain if the Feral Hunter archetype’s Feral Focus is worse than the normal hunters? Namely that the normal hunter can apply it's dead companions thing always and then activate another as a swift. It looks like the feral one has one permanent, but doesn't say anything about the swift action one.


Well, the Verminous Hunter lost some appeal. Worm no longer gives Fast Healing at all. I'd have taken that over fortification.

Silver Crusade

Did the Cape of Feinting (p. 228, no mention in the errata) and the Superior Feint Deed (p. 58, no mention in the errata) ever get corrected to prevent no cost Daze Lock forever? Nothing in the errata seems to prevent it.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Looks like they added a save DC for the Superior Feint use of the cape.

Page 228—In Brass Spider, in the description, at the beginning of the second paragraph, replace “A” with “Once per day, a” and replace the last sentence with “Additionally, the brass spider can be used without limit as masterwork thieves' tools, without the advantage of any additional range.” In Cape of Feinting, at the end of the description, add “if the foe fails a DC 13 Will save.”

Silver Crusade

Excellent sleuthing. Thanks so much!

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So, no word on whether an Investigator's ability to "cast spells like an Alchemist" means that they can use wands? I'm guessing that that will require an FAQ thread. :(


I've just realized that my brown fur transmuter has become even more useless than he was a week ago. I was already regretting having taken the consume magic items exploit after realizing at the table that I wouldn't actually be able to use it on the majority of the junk magic items that the party had accumulated. Now that I can't even use the more expensive stuff as an emergency supply of arcane points, I think I'll be asking the GM to let me retire him this weekend. I'll go back to playing punching characters instead.


Quote:

Page 104—In the Arcane Deed magus arcana, after the

second sentence, add the following sentence: “Even if he
gains a panache pool through another means, the magus
is not considered to have at least 1 point in his panache
pool for the purpose of deeds selected with arcane deed,
and his effective swashbuckler level for determining
such a deed’s effect is 0.”

All this and you could have just said "except precise strike".


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
graystone wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

So Sacred Fist gt a lot of nefs limiting its mlticlassing.

All right, I'm ok with that.

But Flurry of Blows no longer using level as BAB? Sad, but Sacred Fist is STILL good. I'd still play a Sacred Fist.

No level as BAB and no flurry in armor. Not seeing anything that limits multiclassing.
So what is the perk of going Sacred fist now? No pretend full bab, no flurry in armor. might as well go normal Warpriest and TWF if you want to be a "sacred fist" now.

AC Bonus

Makes Unarmed Combat pretty good
Gets the equivalent of 2wf feats for free
Gets Evasion for Fort Save
Ki Pool is better than Sacred Armor and allows you to take feats requiring Ki

It's still a great archetype. It now just works as it was intended.

Edit: When I said limits multiclassing I meant the changes that restrict your armor and how it makes Monk and Warpriest AC bonus count as the same thing instead of adding together.

Oh, so it was intended for sacred fist to get 3.5 flurry of misses. Good to know.


I'm thinking that, if designers haven't come in and confirmed that this is how it's supposed to be, that it's not clear to me that precise strike is dead for magi.

Quote:
Even if he gains a panache pool through another means, the magus is not considered to have at least 1 point in his panache pool for the purpose of deeds selected with arcane deed, and his effective swashbuckler level for determining such a deed’s effect is 0.

This is convoluted wording, but it seems to me that this indicates that taking a feat such as amateur swashbuckler or levels in swashbuckler don't let you use the panache points or the swashbuckler levels from that class level or feat for the deeds you get from arcane deed. Your magus levels and arcane pool still count for that purpose.

Maybe I'm wrong and they wanted to make flamboyant arcana and arcane deed another one of the 90% of utterly useless crap in the magus arcana options. I don't think that's the case though. They let daring champion keep it, so they don't seem to want to make it purely a swashbuckler-only thing.


The warpriest already has accuracy boosting options so is as accurate as core monk most of the time.


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Those accuracy boosts cost resources and they don't stack.

While core monk can also have those boosts (or at least similar ones with the same types) from getting buffed, the warpriest can't.

It went from a class that can spend a limited resource to come out ahead of the monk (the travesty!), it went to a class that needs to spend limited resources to keep up with the monk in accuracy.

It's stupid.


LoneKnave wrote:

Those accuracy boosts cost resources and they don't stack.

While core monk can also have those boosts (or at least similar ones with the same types) from getting buffed, the warpriest can't.

It went from a class that can spend a limited resource to come out ahead of the monk (the travesty!), it went to a class that needs to spend limited resources to keep up with the monk in accuracy.

It's stupid.

he loses scaling weapon damage, he gets scaling unarmed damage

he loses armor, he gets wis to ac + scaling dodge bonuses
he loses feats, he gains flurry (twf+itwf basically)
he loses one limited resource (sacred weapon+armor) he gets another (ki)

balance wise it is up there with the warpriest now (instead of far ahead). warpriest is fine balance wise. ergo, sacred fist is fine.

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