Explosive Runes is overpowered


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

At which point I'd use an adamantium scroll and the lettering would be etched into the adamantium.

WE HAVE TO GO DEEPER

*Shrug* - at most a half a dozen would go off - the rest would still be destroyed. 6d6 would (mean)average several points of damage even to adamantine. Heck - a (un)lucky roll would deal 16 - 3 more than enough to destroy a light shield made of adamantine - I doubt that such a 'scroll' would have nearly as much.

If they can somehow get a bunch of +5 adamantine sheets - 'scrolls' - so that several dozen would likely go off before destroying any of them were destroyed - go ahead. There are far worse things you can do with that much gold.

wait... if they don't go off instantly or at the same time, i can just cast it at a book of them, the pages would absorb an instant of damage then the next rune would be able to be effected by dispel magic. I just need to make it so each page can absorb about 1/3 of the damage or so possible from the number of explosive runes on that page.

That's silly - and not RAW at all. /sarcasm

(In case it didn't show - this whole line of reasoning was intended to be sarcastic and not taken seriously. Of course you should use OOC reasoning to get them to not do something so ridiculous.)

of course none of this is RAW that's what makes it so fun to discuss. if it was all written down, we'd have nothing to talk about.

and frankly there's just something so cathartic about trying to figure out the way to make someone explode in the most efficient way possible.


I'm content with players using this tactic as long as they're content with the bad guys using it against the players.

Seriously, the player characters aren't the smartest beings in the universe. If they could think of this tactic, so could any number of thousands of other casters throughout history.

Now, if the players would prefer not having this tactic used against them, I'd also be perfectly content to make a gentleman's agreement that neither side would do so.

Sovereign Court

Bandw2 wrote:


and frankly there's just something so cathartic about trying to figure out the way to make someone explode in the most efficient way possible.

Of course - if you're playing with RAW to get people not to use the combo - you can do this interpretation -

"Another creature can remove them with a successful dispel magic or erase spell, but attempting to dispel or erase the explosive runes and failing to do so triggers the explosion." -

It doesn't technically say WHERE the explosion is triggered. Frankly - I don't think that it would be entirely unreasonable to rule that - in your world - said explosion triggers on top of the caster of Greater Dispel Magic. A sort of magical backlash.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:


and frankly there's just something so cathartic about trying to figure out the way to make someone explode in the most efficient way possible.

Of course - if you're playing with RAW to get people not to use the combo - you can do this interpretation -

"Another creature can remove them with a successful dispel magic or erase spell, but attempting to dispel or erase the explosive runes and failing to do so triggers the explosion." -

It doesn't technically say WHERE the explosion is triggered. Frankly - I don't think that it would be entirely unreasonable to rule that - in your world - said explosion triggers on top of the caster of Greater Dispel Magic. A sort of magical backlash.

bolded for emphasis, it triggers THE EXPLOSION that would otherwise occur. :3


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Charon's Little Helper wrote:

If someone tried this in one of my games - I'd just argue that the first rune went off and destroyed all of the rest of them before the Dispel Magic affected them.

It's well within RAW - Greater Dispel Magic doesn't say whether or not all dispels are done instantaneously or if there is a small delay as the magic works its way out from the focus point of the spell (usually moot). I'd simply choose to interpret it as a tiny delay.

*reads post*

*looks at rules*

Dispel Magic wrote:

Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)

Target or Area one spellcaster, creature, or object
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Greater Dispel Magic wrote:

Target or Area one spellcaster, creature, or object; or a 20-ft.-radius burst

DESCRIPTION

This spell functions like dispel magic, except that it can end more than one spell on a target and it can be used to target multiple creatures.

*shakes head at people not knowing how rules work*


Pretty much all of my higher level encounters START with the BBEG using greater dispel... so if he wins initiative, he sets off the suitcase nuke before it is deployed, instantly vaporizing the person carrying it.

If they win initiative, they use it and kill him.

As always, initiative wins.

I don't really see any problem here, tbh, though this tactic is clearly soaked in melted cheese, and is boring...

I mean, by the time you can do it, so can your enemy. Why the heck would THEY not use it all the time? I mean, seriously!

I've never seen this attempted, not once. I've only seen it on here.


alexd1976 wrote:

Pretty much all of my higher level encounters START with the BBEG using greater dispel... so if he wins initiative, he sets off the suitcase nuke before it is deployed, instantly vaporizing the person carrying it.

If they win initiative, they use it and kill him.

As always, initiative wins.

I don't really see any problem here, tbh, though this tactic is clearly soaked in melted cheese, and is boring...

I mean, by the time you can do it, so can your enemy. Why the heck would THEY not use it all the time? I mean, seriously!

I've never seen this attempted, not once. I've only seen it on here.

Eh... no. The BBEG has to fail at dispelling the Explosive Runes If he succeeds, nothing happens. BBEGs have this nasty habit of having higher caster levels than the PCs so they often pass caster level checks more so than PCs do.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

lol


Tels wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Pretty much all of my higher level encounters START with the BBEG using greater dispel... so if he wins initiative, he sets off the suitcase nuke before it is deployed, instantly vaporizing the person carrying it.

If they win initiative, they use it and kill him.

As always, initiative wins.

I don't really see any problem here, tbh, though this tactic is clearly soaked in melted cheese, and is boring...

I mean, by the time you can do it, so can your enemy. Why the heck would THEY not use it all the time? I mean, seriously!

I've never seen this attempted, not once. I've only seen it on here.

Eh... no. The BBEG has to fail at dispelling the Explosive Runes If he succeeds, nothing happens. BBEGs have this nasty habit of having higher caster levels than the PCs so they often pass caster level checks more so than PCs do.

I don't make my NPCs overpowered, I make them appropriate to the point in the campaign the players are at. If they have specialized at making their spells hard to dispel (and they always do), the NPCs often fail.

My favorite/really ONLY threat to the parties in my games: hordes.

Hordes of whatever monster catches my fancy.

Hundreds of trolls, thousands of orcs.

If they can one-shot anything, just throw more at them.

Gives the fighters something to do, especially when the casters run out of spells.

:D

Sovereign Court

Tels wrote:


*shakes head at people not knowing how rules work*

*shakes head at you*

It's the dispel effect which is instantaneous - not the spell itself.

Look at Fireball - also 'instantaneous' - "A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point."

If it was all actually 'instantaneous', then no one would see/know that there was a pea-sized bead at all - the ball of fire would simply come into existence all at once.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Tels wrote:


*shakes head at people not knowing how rules work*

*shakes head at you*

It's the dispel effect which is instantaneous - not the spell itself.

Look at Fireball - also 'instantaneous' - "A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point."

If it was all actually 'instantaneous', then no one would see/know that there was a pea-sized bead at all - the ball of fire would simply come into existence all at once.

no it instantly creates the pea, the rest happens as described.


Forgarn wrote:

I have read through this post and as I sit here and just shake my head, I ma forced to point out several problems with many of the attempts to make this magical trap an offensive weapon.

1. For those of you planning your marauding goblin horde with explosive runes on the front side of tower shield, please note the following from the spell itself:
"Target: one touched object weighing no more than 10 lbs."

A tower shield weighs 45 lbs so a small sized one for a goblin would weigh 22.5 lbs. Too big to put explosive runes on.

2. For those talking about them on a piece of paper, if that is the only thing on the paper it would take a Perception check of 28 to notice them as they are a magical trap (which is what the spell was designed as).

3. For all others, the spell states that there are only three ways to make the runes explode: reading the information they protect, failed erase, or failed dispel magic. So... even if you were crazy enough to sit down and put explosive runes on every page of a book, the first page that is read would cause 6d6 points of damage to the reader and to the book thus destroying all the pages but not triggering them.

4. For the spell to trigger, and this is the irony of it all, you have to read the information. This is ironic because I get the sense that many of the people posting here had not actually read the spell. The information that it protects must be read. The definition of reading, as listed by Merriam-Webster is " to look at and understand the meaning of letters, words, symbols, etc." Please note it says "UNDERSTAND," not just look at.If the information that is being protected is written in Draconic and the person inspecting the book does not know Draconic, they cannot read the book, therefore they cannot trigger the runes. The same with maps; if I created a map and used my own short hand that only I understood, and then cast explosive runes on it, no one else could set it off because they don't understand the meaning of the symbols that the runes...

1) I agree with you. This is why I cast explosive runes onto a piece of paper and tack it on to Goblin Tower Shields.

2) This is actually the DC to notice a trap without setting it off. Not all written traps have to be discovered to be activated, many of them have special rules for how they work. Explosive Runes detonates when read; you don't actually have to make the Perception DC to notice them, because the text for Explosive Runes determines how it functions.

3) The rules don't limit you to having only 1 Explsoive Runes per page. Personally, I houserule it to limiting the number of Explosive Runes on the page equal to the lowest ability score modifier of the Runes. For example, if you have an 18 casting stat when you cast an Explosive Runes on a piece of paper, you can have up to 4 total Runes on that paper. Later on, if you haven't triggered that piece of paper and have increased your stat to +6, you can still only have +4 because that's the lowest ability score of any of the Runes. But you could have a separate piece of paper with up to 6 total runes on it.

4) This may be the dictionary definition, but it's not the definition of the word read as used by the game developers since... well, since forever. There's been numerous occasions of people triggering written traps like Sepia Snake Sigil or Explosive Runes despite being in a language they can't understand or comprehend. Sepia Snake Sigil, for example, is often used to boobytrap spellbooks, and spellbooks, by their nature, cannot be read until deciphered. Yet there have been numerous occasions of low level characters, especially non-magical ones, being trapped in snake sigils over the years.

In the context of game design, reading something and looking at it are synonymous when it comes to traps involving runes and the like.


alexd1976 wrote:
Tels wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Pretty much all of my higher level encounters START with the BBEG using greater dispel... so if he wins initiative, he sets off the suitcase nuke before it is deployed, instantly vaporizing the person carrying it.

If they win initiative, they use it and kill him.

As always, initiative wins.

I don't really see any problem here, tbh, though this tactic is clearly soaked in melted cheese, and is boring...

I mean, by the time you can do it, so can your enemy. Why the heck would THEY not use it all the time? I mean, seriously!

I've never seen this attempted, not once. I've only seen it on here.

Eh... no. The BBEG has to fail at dispelling the Explosive Runes If he succeeds, nothing happens. BBEGs have this nasty habit of having higher caster levels than the PCs so they often pass caster level checks more so than PCs do.

I don't make my NPCs overpowered, I make them appropriate to the point in the campaign the players are at. If they have specialized at making their spells hard to dispel (and they always do), the NPCs often fail.

My favorite/really ONLY threat to the parties in my games: hordes.

Hordes of whatever monster catches my fancy.

Hundreds of trolls, thousands of orcs.

If they can one-shot anything, just throw more at them.

Gives the fighters something to do, especially when the casters run out of spells.

:D

BBEG = Big Bad Evil Guy/Gal and usually means "Boss". Most "Boss" characters are usually of higher level. Even if it's just 2 or 3 levels higher, that's still a higher chance to dispel the PCs spells than the PCs have of dispelling the BBEG's spells. I'm not saying the BBEG's Wizard advisor or lackey might not be of their level, or lower and could fail that dispel check, but the BBEG itself usually succeeds on those.

Especially since most of the 'Suitcase-o-fun' is usually created over multiple levels as the caster has time/slots to prepare the sheets. This means, normally, many of them will be of lower level than even the PC who owns them.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Tels wrote:


*shakes head at people not knowing how rules work*

*shakes head at you*

It's the dispel effect which is instantaneous - not the spell itself.

Look at Fireball - also 'instantaneous' - "A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point."

If it was all actually 'instantaneous', then no one would see/know that there was a pea-sized bead at all - the ball of fire would simply come into existence all at once.

The rules for the game state otherwise.

Magic wrote:

Instantaneous

The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

The energy of the spell is instantaneous, this means it affects everyone and every thing, instantly at the same time.

*shakes head at those ignorant of the rules*


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Tels wrote:
In the context of game design, reading something and looking at it are synonymous when it comes to traps involving runes and the like.

Maybe true.

But I still have a hard time believing that you "read" the runes that happen to be on a dozen different goblin shields. Much more likely, you see a dozen goblins and as your eyes fall on ONE shield and inadvertently read the runes, those runes go boom and you say "Wow, better not look at AND READ the runes on the other 11 shields!"

Furthermore, what exactly is the range on reading these runes. If a dozen goblins are charging across a field, can I read the runes while they're still a 100' away? If so, I immediately think "Wow, better hurry and read ALL the shields to detonate that crap way over there, before they reach me!"

Putting multiple runes on one paper doesn't work for me. I know when I read a book, my eyes read just about one word at a time. If somehow that word explodes, I probably don't read the next word - I'm too busy flinching away, blinking, screaming, having bright spots in my eyes, etc. And if that explosion destroys the page the remaining runes are on, the extra runes are no danger to me. In short, I don't think I can simultaneously read all those runes - I have to read them one at a time and I definitely won't read the second one...

That has nothing to do with dispelling a page of runes, just with reading them.


JoeJ wrote:
Lamontius wrote:

sorry

if my PC setting off a tree feather token inside some big bad that swallowed him is wrong, then I do not want to be right

I will turn my frown upside down

also j/k not sorry at all

And if your PC walks into a room wallpapered with hundreds of Explosive Runes? Is that also okay?

Clouded vision oracle :p

Cant see the walls xD

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Kindly note that illiteracy will not protect you.

I can 'read Chinese' perfectly well. I just can't understand what it's saying. Lack of comprehension will not protect you if you scan the symbols.

==Aelryinth

Liberty's Edge

Explosive Runes while powerful is hardly broken. Considering what other arcane spells that exist like Create Demiplane, Prismatic Spray. Color Spray a leve1 1 Spell is more powerful than that imo. It's even the context. Sure one may fill a book of runes or a room. It takes time. What's next Dancing Lights is broken because I no longer need to spend money on light sources.


Like I said before you're honestly one dispel from a group of bad guys away from table flipping over a TPK.

Non issue.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Cavall wrote:

Like I said before you're honestly one dispel from a group of bad guys away from table flipping over a TPK.

Non issue.

not really as has been mentioned it needs lien of effect, so if your explosive rune pack is stored away it's a non-issue.

if it's not then why haven't you prepared your delivery sooner away from the enemy?


Aelryinth wrote:

Kindly note that illiteracy will not protect you.

I can 'read Chinese' perfectly well. I just can't understand what it's saying. Lack of comprehension will not protect you if you scan the symbols.

==Aelryinth

Wait, is this true regarding Explosive Runes? I know they allow no saving throw if they detonate within reading range, but is simply scanning the runes without comprehending what they say a valid triggering condition for Explosive Runes?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

You're not actually thinking the Explosive Runes actually say something, are you?

Even an Int 3 person knows the squiggles means something, they just don't know what and might not care to learn. Still, they are READING it.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

You're not actually thinking the Explosive Runes actually say something, are you?

Even an Int 3 person knows the squiggles means something, they just don't know what and might not care to learn. Still, they are READING it.

==Aelryinth

Is that raw? When I look at Arabic text (I never studied Arabic), I wouldn't consider myself to be 'reading' it. In fact, in casual conversation, I could say, "Voideternal can't read Arabic."

Here's what Linguistic says:

Linguistics wrote:
Learn a Language: Whenever you put a rank into this skill, you learn to speak and read a new language.

Doesn't this mean you can't read a language you don't know?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

considering a # of these traps work and are on dead languages, and it's a trope, i'm going to say yeah, you don't need to know the language.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

IT is entirely possible for you to look at a line of Arabic, know it is saying something, and entirely recreate it, without having any idea of what it means.

So, I guess it comes down to whether you think 'read' means 'look at and study' or 'look at and instantly comprehend the meaning of'.

That could also mean that you can't read math if you can't 'solve' it, which some numbers-challenged person might argue.

So, either you rule it as triggering when someone gets close enough to realize it says something, even if it is Gibberish, OR you open yourself up to a ton of corner cases of exclusionary loopholes. "Oh, he must've wrote them in Elvish. I can't 'read' Elvish." etc.

After all, you can 'read something' just to SEE if you understand it, which is what I'm referring to. I can read computer code, too, I just don't understand what it says even if I recognize the symbols.

==Aelryinth


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

just put explosive runes on a map problem solved.


Uh-uh.

The definition of "to read" is "to look at and comprehend the meaning of (written or printed matter) by mentally interpreting the characters or symbols of which it is composed."

If you can't comprehend the meaning, you aren't reading it, you're just looking at it.

Not that I think this makes any difference in this particular situation or not. See my previous post.

Edit:

Additionally, if merely looking at/seeing writing were sufficient to be able to "read" it and then copy it, then every country in the world would have virtual 100% literacy; only the blind wouldn't be considered literate. (Literate simply meaning having the ability to read and write.)


Aelryinth wrote:

After all, you can 'read something' just to SEE if you understand it, which is what I'm referring to. I can read computer code, too, I just don't understand what it says even if I recognize the symbols.

==Aelryinth

Does that mean I can trigger an Explosive Runes if I'm standing 300ft away and I realize there's some written language on something?

If not, how close do I need to be to be considered 'reading'?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

how the hell do explosive runes know if you can read them or not... HOW DOES IT KNOW YOU'RE TRYING TO READ THEM? damn it magic, you strike again.

no but seriously the rune allow you to put them on a map. how do you handle that?


The thing is though... if it does require the person to understand it, why does the spell not ever mention what language it is in? Magic is not in just one language... it can be abyssal, dragonic, giant. Fey, ect...


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

oh yeah it's not labeled as a language dependent effect. food for thought.

also you trace over actually written stuff with explosive runes.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Saldiven wrote:

Uh-uh.

The definition of "to read" is "to look at and comprehend the meaning of (written or printed matter) by mentally interpreting the characters or symbols of which it is composed."

If you can't comprehend the meaning, you aren't reading it, you're just looking at it.

Not that I think this makes any difference in this particular situation or not. See my previous post.

Edit:

Additionally, if merely looking at/seeing writing were sufficient to be able to "read" it and then copy it, then every country in the world would have virtual 100% literacy; only the blind wouldn't be considered literate. (Literate simply meaning having the ability to read and write.)

You're now getting into the corner cases I mentioned.

The magic of the Runes specifically says you have to be close (5' or 10'), meaning whatever squiggles they are made of aren't resolvable unless you are that close, even with a telescope (gotta love magic).

You can read something to understand that you don't know what it is saying, as opposed to looking at it and not having any idea it's a language. They both use the same terminology...reading does not necessarily 100% imply comprehension. That's why we have reading levels. In Explosive Runes' case, your reading level is likely 0% because it is mere gibberish anyways.

And, as noted above, it's not language dependent, which would be NECCESSARY if 'comprehension' were involved, so the language the runes were in would be important.

It isn't.

==Aelryinth


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I am actually pretty annoyed that this came back up
This issue really should have been put to bed already
The one thing that you all are forgetting is

Spoiler:
EXPLOSIVE RUNES

just trying to keep it real because this arguing is getting us nowhere


Aelryinth wrote:
The magic of the Runes specifically says you have to be close (5' or 10'), meaning whatever squiggles they are made of aren't resolvable unless you are that close, even with a telescope (gotta love magic).

Explosive runes say you have to be close to take damage, but doesn't say you have to be close to trigger the explosion.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Lamontius wrote:

I am actually pretty annoyed that this came back up

This issue really should have been put to bed already
The one thing that you all are forgetting is

** spoiler omitted **

just trying to keep it real because this arguing is getting us nowhere

this is the second time you've gotten me with that.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

okay so, i put a giant square on a billboard, this billboard weights 9.9 lbs and is mostly supported by magic. i trace explosive runes over the square. how does this work?


voideternal wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
The magic of the Runes specifically says you have to be close (5' or 10'), meaning whatever squiggles they are made of aren't resolvable unless you are that close, even with a telescope (gotta love magic).
Explosive runes say you have to be close to take damage, but doesn't say you have to be close to trigger the explosion.

Well actually they say that people close enough to read them get no save, so if you can read them at 100 feet, that is a 100 foot radius explosion.


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I think it is pretty funny the general reaction to the broken garbage in pathfinder.

Its not broken if you don't use it!!!

Oh yeah well if you use it I'll use it!!!


Avadriel wrote:
voideternal wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
The magic of the Runes specifically says you have to be close (5' or 10'), meaning whatever squiggles they are made of aren't resolvable unless you are that close, even with a telescope (gotta love magic).
Explosive runes say you have to be close to take damage, but doesn't say you have to be close to trigger the explosion.
Well actually they say that people close enough to read them get no save, so if you can read them at 100 feet, that is a 100 foot radius explosion.

I figured out a new way to decimate a kingdom in Pathfinder.

Step 1) Get one of those hot air balloons that have those long banner advertisements. Make the advertisement part magically under 10 lbs.
Step 2) Cast Exploding Runes.
Step 3) Fly it / Teleport it in over the enemy kingdom.

Result - Anyone close enough to read the ad banner takes 6d6 force damage.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

it would be better to drop leaflets. it would prevent them from reclaiming the area.


at that point just sow the ground with salt, it would be cheaper, and if collateral damage is the goal, making the land impossible to farm resulting in widespread famine and starvation sounds like a great way to go about it. I mean as long as we are flying around overhead.


Avadriel wrote:
at that point just sow the ground with salt, it would be cheaper, and if collateral damage is the goal, making the land impossible to farm resulting in widespread famine and starvation sounds like a great way to go about it. I mean as long as we are flying around overhead.

But my expample shows how Explosive Runes can cover a whole kingdom. And this thread is about Explosive Runes.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

we're talking about a city, salting the land would require more than 1 person, and several hundred explosions in a crowded city would be funner to watch.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
voideternal wrote:
Avadriel wrote:
at that point just sow the ground with salt, it would be cheaper, and if collateral damage is the goal, making the land impossible to farm resulting in widespread famine and starvation sounds like a great way to go about it. I mean as long as we are flying around overhead.
But my expample shows how Explosive Runes can cover a whole kingdom. And this thread is about Explosive Runes.

to add more magic to the mix.

teleport above the kingdom. Cast mage's mansion. Build your giant explosive rune bomb for as much as you can and then deploy the ad with a parachute, the moment anyone sees it the whole city will take several hundred d6 of damage.


Bandw2 wrote:
...would be funner to watch.

"would be more fun to watch."


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Grammar Cop wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
...would be funner to watch.
"would be more fun to watch."

f#!~ the police!

also, English be damned more fun sounds worse


<@><@> KaBOOM


Bandw2 wrote:
Grammar Cop wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
...would be funner to watch.
"would be more fun to watch."

f&%@ the police!

also, English be damned more fun sounds worse

Oooooh, he's a rapper! Time to bust a cap!


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
DM_Blake wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Grammar Cop wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
...would be funner to watch.
"would be more fun to watch."

f&%@ the police!

also, English be damned more fun sounds worse

Oooooh, he's a rapper!

I, Say!


Saldiven wrote:
I'd also be perfectly content to make a gentleman's agreement that neither side would do so.

So much of the unbalanced, rickety structure of the game demands gentlemen's agreements that I suppose adding one more is no big deal for some tables. For me, and a lot of the people I've gamed with in the last 10-15 years, that's getting to be really old -- the list of things you can't do "because, well, that's just not done" is getting to be as long as the rulebook itself. At some point you start looking for good house rules that will close more than one loophole at once, if only to make your own life easier. We were hoping Pathfinder would do that with 3.5. But it didn't, so we started writing our own.

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