Scroll Scholar and Prestige Classes


Rules Questions


I have a Wizard with the Scroll Scholar archetype. At Wizard 10, the archetype grants an ability in exchange for a 4th-level spell slot.

I want to give him levels in Cyphermage, which progresses spellcasting from a previous class.

At Wizard5/Cyphermage5, what happens?

Does he:
1) Not gain the spell slot. It was given up in the first level of Wizard.
2) Gain the spell slot. You didn't take Wizard 10, so you never traded it in.
3) Not gain the spell slot, but get the Scroll Scholar's ability. You advance spellcasting, and this took the place of some of that casting.

I suspect the answer is #1, though I would obviously prefer #2.


I think it's 1. All archetype changes happen at Lv1, so you traded it out though you'll not get it until you have 10 lvs of wizard. I'm curious why you're taking this archetype?


I'm not so sure. The archetype says 'at 10th level you get blah, in exchange you lose one 4th level spell, thereafter you have one less spell slot etc'.

This at least means that it is open to interpretation. I'd go with the idea that 'you aren't a 10th level wizard, so you don’t get the ability but neither do you suffer the loss of a spell slot.' If and when you reach 10th level as a wizard, then you get the ability and lose the slot.
Final answer: Ask your GM.


Quote:

I'm not so sure. The archetype says 'at 10th level you get blah, in exchange you lose one 4th level spell, thereafter you have one less spell slot etc'.

This at least means that it is open to interpretation. I'd go with the idea that 'you aren't a 10th level wizard, so you don’t get the ability but neither do you suffer the loss of a spell slot.' If and when you reach 10th level as a wizard, then you get the ability and lose the slot.

My basis is that archetypes can't stack if they replace the same feature, now you're saying if you never reached that high then you'd never have that conflicting problem, but you still can't do it. Thus at lv 1 is when you traded everything. And the prestige class says,

Quote:


At the indicated levels, an arcane archer gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class.

since it's as the wizard you've lost that slot from being the archetype.


When you take a prestige class, then you stop advancing in ANYTHING that the prestige class doesn't grant. That means you never get to gain the ability "Flash of Insight". Loosing the spell slot is part of the ability, so you don't lose the spell slot before you obtain the ability.

@Chess Pwn: Just because they have limited the amount of stackable archetypes that way, it doesn't mean that you pay the cost for the abilities at lvl 1.


Never gaining the ability doesn't mean you don't pay for it already. I feel it's like rangers and paladins that get rid of their spellcasting, they loose the ability to count as having spells for wands at lv1, even though they don't lose their spellcasting till level 4. And since the prestige says "as the class" if that class looses spell slot then the prestige class would go with that, not ignore it. Like a magus that reduces his spells by one, a prestige class wouldn't give him full slot uses, he's always one less than normal.


@Gilarius: This is for PFS, so I don't really have that luxury. That being said, it isn't a PFS-specific question, so I didn't put it in that subforum.

@Chess Pwn: The ranger example was one of the things I thought of for this, yes, and it's definitely something to keep in mind. That might not be fully applicable, though, since the text for the Spell Trigger activation method has extra language to handle Ranger 1.


The magus example holds though. If the magus archetype said all spells above first level had the reduction, then going into an archetype before gaining second level spells wouldn't ignore that rule. It's changing the magus spells, and the prestige class says they gain spell slots like the base class. The wizard lost that spell slot from selecting the archetype, regardless of whether he gains "Flash of Insight" or not, his spells have been changed.


Not necessarily. The Magus archetypes gain the Diminished Spellcasting class feature at 1st. Scroll Scholar gains the modifying ability at 10th.


Your spells are being modified to lose your slot at level 1 for the scroll scholar, even if you never gain "Flash of Insight". Your spells are modified at level 1. Again I reference the loss of spells for rangers and paladins. Even if you never gain the benefits of losing your spell casting you lost them and can't use the wands. Same here, you lost the slot, even if you don't get the ability.


I think Chess Pwn has made an acceptable circumstancial case for you losing the spell slot even if you never gain the ability that you normally lose it for. That said, it is conjecture and without an official ruling expect differences of opinion, in short, ask your GM or go to a VC (for PFS).
Personally speaking I'd houserule this specific case so that you didn't lose the spellslot.


Lifat wrote:

I think Chess Pwn has made an acceptable circumstancial case for you losing the spell slot even if you never gain the ability that you normally lose it for. That said, it is conjecture and without an official ruling expect differences of opinion, in short, ask your GM or go to a VC (for PFS).

Personally speaking I'd houserule this specific case so that you didn't lose the spellslot.

+1

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