Enlarge Person, Permanency, and Eidolons


Rules Questions


So I know I can use enlarge person via share spell on my eidolon but can I buy a scroll of permanency to then make it permanent? Would this effect stay when unsummoned and then resummoned? I'm wondering because the wording says you only summon an aspect of the creature.


Kranchan wrote:
So I know I can use enlarge person via share spell on my eidolon but can I buy a scroll of permanency to then make it permanent? Would this effect stay when unsummoned and then resummoned? I'm wondering because the wording says you only summon an aspect of the creature.

I would say yes with a catch.

"Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score."

As I read it you could summon your Eidolon, cast Enlarge and then cast permanency. But if it's hit points were reduced to the point where it returns to its home plane you would have to summon it again and re-cast Enlarge and Permanency.


Ebron wrote:
Kranchan wrote:
So I know I can use enlarge person via share spell on my eidolon but can I buy a scroll of permanency to then make it permanent? Would this effect stay when unsummoned and then resummoned? I'm wondering because the wording says you only summon an aspect of the creature.

I would say yes with a catch.

"Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score."

As I read it you could summon your Eidolon, cast Enlarge and then cast permanency. But if it's hit points were reduced to the point where it returns to its home plane you would have to summon it again and re-cast Enlarge and Permanency.

Or if you sleep or fall unconscious or anything else that makes the eidolon disappear.

Dark Archive

Kranchan wrote:
So I know I can use enlarge person via share spell on my eidolon but can I buy a scroll of permanency to then make it permanent? Would this effect stay when unsummoned and then resummoned? I'm wondering because the wording says you only summon an aspect of the creature.

Uhmm, no you can't do any of this.

share spells does not allow you to cast enlarge person on your eidolon, that's an invalid spell.

share spells wrote:
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon
enlarge person wrote:
Target one humanoid creature

You can never cast enlarge paerson on a eidolon.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Uhmm, no you can't do any of this.
share spells does not allow you to cast enlarge person on your eidolon, that's an invalid spell.

share spells wrote:
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon
enlarge person wrote:
Target one humanoid creature

You can never cast enlarge paerson on a eidolon.

Except that's not the only line in the ability:

Quote:

Share Spells (Ex)

The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.

It's the second line that allows Enlarge Person on an Eidolon.

Edit:

To the original question, I don't think it's at all clear that the spell goes away when the Eidolon is unsummoned - I think it depends a lot on how your GM treats other permanent effects - does unsummoning the Eidolon clear Bestow Curse or Baleful Polymorph? If so, then it should clear the Enlarged Person as well. If those effects "Stick", then so should the Enlarged Person, since they are all duration "permanent" effects.


MrTsFloatinghead wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

share spells wrote:
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon
enlarge person wrote:
Target one humanoid creature
Quote:

Share Spells (Ex)

The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself.
It's the second line that allows Enlarge Person on an Eidolon.

But a target of "you" is not a target of "one humanoid creature".

Spells that target "you" are personal range spells.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Bacondale wrote:
MrTsFloatinghead wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

share spells wrote:
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon
enlarge person wrote:
Target one humanoid creature
Quote:

Share Spells (Ex)

The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself.
It's the second line that allows Enlarge Person on an Eidolon.

But a target of "you" is not a target of "one humanoid creature".

Spells that target "you" are personal range spells.

So? The first line is a benefit, not a restriction. The intent of the ability is clearly not to limit Summoners to ONLY casting personal range spells on their Eidolons.

Moreover, given that I'm not sure there ARE any spells that have both a range of "personal" and a "type" restriction on the Summoner's list (or any list, for that matter), it seems like your interpretation would render the second line meaningless.

Dark Archive

MrTsFloatinghead wrote:
Bacondale wrote:
MrTsFloatinghead wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

share spells wrote:
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon
enlarge person wrote:
Target one humanoid creature
Quote:

Share Spells (Ex)

The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself.
It's the second line that allows Enlarge Person on an Eidolon.

But a target of "you" is not a target of "one humanoid creature".

Spells that target "you" are personal range spells.

So? The first line is a benefit, not a restriction. The intent of the ability is clearly not to limit Summoners to ONLY casting personal range spells on their Eidolons.

Moreover, given that I'm not sure there ARE any spells that have both a range of "personal" and a "type" restriction on the Summoner's list (or any list, for that matter), it seems like your interpretation would render the second line meaningless.

But what about the Druid and Wizard spell lists. After all that line is also in the Shared spells feature for their Familiars/Animal Companions.

This may just give me a reason to play a cleric with the animal domain and the boon companion feat.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Happler wrote:


But what about the Druid and Wizard spell lists. After all that line is also in the Shared spells feature for their Familiars/Animal Companions.

This may just give me a reason to play a cleric with the animal domain and the boon companion feat.

Right, and the same reasoning applies - the first line is clearly not meant to say they can ONLY cast personal range spells on their familiars/companions, etc., because that would make them WORSE at buffing their familiars, not better. Plus, again, generally speaking there just aren't spells with range of personal and type restrictions - I've found exactly one so far: Paragon Surge, with a range of "Personal (half-elf only)". Everything else seems to be "Range: Personal" and "Target: You" or "Target: You and <blah blah blah>", all of which would be captured by the first line.

Dark Archive

MrTsFloatinghead wrote:
Bacondale wrote:
MrTsFloatinghead wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

share spells wrote:
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon
enlarge person wrote:
Target one humanoid creature
Quote:

Share Spells (Ex)

The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself.
It's the second line that allows Enlarge Person on an Eidolon.

But a target of "you" is not a target of "one humanoid creature".

Spells that target "you" are personal range spells.

So? The first line is a benefit, not a restriction. The intent of the ability is clearly not to limit Summoners to ONLY casting personal range spells on their Eidolons.

Moreover, given that I'm not sure there ARE any spells that have both a range of "personal" and a "type" restriction on the Summoner's list (or any list, for that matter), it seems like your interpretation would render the second line meaningless.

It actually is a restriction and a benefit. Share spells is there so a caster can use their personal range spells to benefit their bonded companion. It's not there to bypass the built in restrictions of every spell in the game.

Expeditious retreat, Alter Self & Fire Shield are self only spells but share spells lets your companion benefit from them too. That's the purpose of the share spells ability not what you are trying to do.

edit: share Spells doesn't mean that you can only cast those spells on your companion, it's there so you can cast all your normal buff spells on your companion (like any other creature) AND also put your self buff spells on them too.

Dark Archive

MrTsFloatinghead wrote:
Happler wrote:


But what about the Druid and Wizard spell lists. After all that line is also in the Shared spells feature for their Familiars/Animal Companions.

This may just give me a reason to play a cleric with the animal domain and the boon companion feat.

Right, and the same reasoning applies - the first line is clearly not meant to say they can ONLY cast personal range spells on their familiars/companions, etc., because that would make them WORSE at buffing their familiars, not better. Plus, again, generally speaking there just aren't spells with range of personal and type restrictions - I've found exactly one so far: Paragon Surge, with a range of "Personal (half-elf only)". Everything else seems to be "Range: Personal" and "Target: You" or "Target: You and <blah blah blah>", all of which would be captured by the first line.

So, my cleric could cast Rapid Repair on my Animal Companion and grant them fast healing 5.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


It actually is a restriction and a benefit. Share spells is there so a caster can use their personal range spells to benefit their bonded companion. It's not there to bypass the built in restrictions of every spell in the game.

Expeditious retreat, Alter Self & Fire Shield are self only spells but share spells lets your companion benefit from them too. That's the purpose of the share spells ability not what you are trying to do.

edit: share Spells doesn't mean that you can only cast those spells on your companion, it's there so you can cast all your normal buff spells on your companion (like any other creature) AND also put your self buff spells on them too.

Pretty much what I was going to respond with. The ability is to allow you to cast spells that can only otherwise be cast on yourself on your familiar, etc.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

It actually is a restriction and a benefit. Share spells is there so a caster can use their personal range spells to benefit their bonded companion. It's not there to bypass the built in restrictions of every spell in the game.
Expeditious retreat, Alter Self & Fire Shield are self only spells but share spells lets your companion benefit from them too. That's the purpose of the share spells ability not what you are trying to do.

edit: share Spells doesn't mean that you can only cast those spells on your companion, it's there so you can cast all your normal buff spells on your companion (like any other creature) AND also put your self buff spells on them too.

I agree with the first line of your edit, which makes the rest of your argument wrong. The first line does not say that you can ONLY cast personal range spells, so it must not be a restriction, but rather a benefit. The second line is another benefit. One does not place restrictions on the other.

If you were correct, then given (as I've already pointed out) that spells with a range of "Personal" don't have type restrictions, what is the possible function of the second line.

Happler: Yes, I don't see why not.


Happler wrote:
So, my cleric could cast Rapid Repair on my Animal Companion and grant them fast healing 5.

Rules as written, yes. Probably not rules as intended though. It was intended to allow the caster to give his companions the same kinds of benefits he can give himself or other players.

prd wrote:
Share Spells (Ex): The druid may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on herself. A druid may cast spells on her animal companion even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion's type (animal). Spells cast in this way must come from a class that grants an animal companion. This ability does not allow the animal to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.

You could read that to limit you to spells that effect only "creatures", so you couldn't cast animate rope on your familiar; but constructs are a creature type, so your example should work.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

It actually is a restriction and a benefit. Share spells is there so a caster can use their personal range spells to benefit their bonded companion. It's not there to bypass the built in restrictions of every spell in the game.

Expeditious retreat, Alter Self & Fire Shield are self only spells but share spells lets your companion benefit from them too. That's the purpose of the share spells ability not what you are trying to do.

edit: share Spells doesn't mean that you can only cast those spells on your companion, it's there so you can cast all your normal buff spells on your companion (like any other creature) AND also put your self buff spells on them too.

Here is the thing, what you're arguing about is pointless because it was an error on the OP's part.

So yes, OP you're wrong and you can't use Share Spells to Enlarge your Eidolon. Just go ahead and cast Enlarge Person on your Eidolon:

Share Spells wrote:

The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.

This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.

Bolded for emphasis.

You can cast spells on your Eidolon regardless of what they would normally be restricted to, as long as the spell comes from the Summoner Spell List.

As for if it lasts when it returns to its home plane? Would it not normally last? As far as I can tell, it is just changing places. Nothing that would rip spell effects off. In my opinion, yes, it would be permanent until dispelled.

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