Rules clarification for Mythic Champion ability "Critical Master" needed.


Rules Questions


I searched for an answer but didn't find anything official or convincing, so here's what confuses me:

Maximized Critical (Ex): Whenever you score a critical hit, the weapon's damage result is always the maximum possible amount you could roll. This doesn't affect other dice added to the damage, such as from sneak attack or the flaming weapon special ability. For example, if you score a critical hit with a longsword (1d8/×2), treat the sword's damage dice as if you had rolled 8 both times, then add any other damage bonuses that you would normally apply to a critical hit.

That's a nice ability, especially for the new warpriest. However, Critical Master looks like this:

Critical Master (Ex): Whenever you roll a critical threat against a non-mythic creature, you automatically confirm the critical hit and deal the maximum amount of damage to that creature. This ability can be selected twice. The second time it is selected, it also applies to mythic creatures.

What is that supposed to mean? Are all dice maximized? For a rogue with sneak attack that would be insanely powerful. Is it supposed to mean weapons damage dice only? Then why doesn't it say so? Sure, you have to take it twice, but then it would make Maximized Critical completely obsolete.


That's the second post I made with questions about the mythic rules that gets 0 replies. O_o


Alright I'm going to take a stab at this. First thing is that I understand greatly your frustration with the book. As much as I love mythic tiers I feel it needs at least another revision. Okay with that out of the way on to business.

The 1st one is a tier 3 while the 2nd is tier 6, also one specifically says it while the later doesn't so from both of those facts I would indeed say the tier 6 one is indeed total maximum unlike the 3rd tier one.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

From designer comments (specifically the Legendary Item Undetectable comment from SRM), unlike any other part of the rules, when interpreting a mythic ability, go for the more powerful interpretation.

Because mythic.


Thanks for the replies. :-)

Onyxlion wrote:
Alright I'm going to take a stab at this. First thing is that I understand greatly your frustration with the book. As much as I love mythic tiers I feel it needs at least another revision. Okay with that out of the way on to business.

I agree, I'm a big fan of mythic (my first fantasy literature were basically Ilias, Odyssee and Aeneas) but the mythic rules could do with a few better explanations especially where the interaction of different abilities are concerned.

Onyxlion wrote:
The 1st one is a tier 3 while the 2nd is tier 6, also one specifically says it while the later doesn't so from both of those facts I would indeed say the tier 6 one is indeed total maximum unlike the 3rd tier one.

Thanks. It just seemed strange that it is so much more powerful (maximized weapon damage on critical hit vs. auto-confirm and all damage maximized on crits, even if you have to take it twice.) But since pretty much everyone I showed it to agrees. :D

Chemlak wrote:

From designer comments (specifically the Legendary Item Undetectable comment from SRM), unlike any other part of the rules, when interpreting a mythic ability, go for the more powerful interpretation.

Because mythic.

Legendary Item Undetectable? SRM? Sorry, I'm afraid you lost me there.


Navarion wrote:

Thanks for the replies. :-)

Onyxlion wrote:
Alright I'm going to take a stab at this. First thing is that I understand greatly your frustration with the book. As much as I love mythic tiers I feel it needs at least another revision. Okay with that out of the way on to business.

I agree, I'm a big fan of mythic (my first fantasy literature were basically Ilias, Odyssee and Aeneas) but the mythic rules could do with a few better explanations especially where the interaction of different abilities are concerned.

Onyxlion wrote:
The 1st one is a tier 3 while the 2nd is tier 6, also one specifically says it while the later doesn't so from both of those facts I would indeed say the tier 6 one is indeed total maximum unlike the 3rd tier one.

Thanks. It just seemed strange that it is so much more powerful (maximized weapon damage on critical hit vs. auto-confirm and all damage maximized on crits, even if you have to take it twice.) But since pretty much everyone I showed it to agrees. :D

Chemlak wrote:

From designer comments (specifically the Legendary Item Undetectable comment from SRM), unlike any other part of the rules, when interpreting a mythic ability, go for the more powerful interpretation.

Because mythic.

Legendary Item Undetectable? SRM? Sorry, I'm afraid you lost me there.

Regarding the Bolded: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-magic-items/legendary-items

Scroll all the way down, and you'll see the "Undetectable" mod. I forget exactly what was said in the discussion in question, but it was basically "How undetectable, is Undetectable?". The answer was along the lines of:

Completely, and totally, undetectable, because Mythic.

On topic I'm of the general opinion that Critical Master maximizes everything as well. As such, yes, it would tend to make Maximized Critical redundant, and even a poor option should you know you'll make it to 6th or higher tiers.

It's worth mentioning that Maximized Critical only takes a single Path ability to work on both nonmythic, and mythic enemies. Whereas Critical Master requires two to work on both nonmythic and mythic enemies.


My reading is that, yes, Critical Master is super awesome with sneak attack (or vital strike) and eventually makes Maximized Critical redundant.

Cheers!
Landon


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Legowaffles wrote:
Navarion wrote:

Thanks for the replies. :-)

Onyxlion wrote:
Alright I'm going to take a stab at this. First thing is that I understand greatly your frustration with the book. As much as I love mythic tiers I feel it needs at least another revision. Okay with that out of the way on to business.

I agree, I'm a big fan of mythic (my first fantasy literature were basically Ilias, Odyssee and Aeneas) but the mythic rules could do with a few better explanations especially where the interaction of different abilities are concerned.

Onyxlion wrote:
The 1st one is a tier 3 while the 2nd is tier 6, also one specifically says it while the later doesn't so from both of those facts I would indeed say the tier 6 one is indeed total maximum unlike the 3rd tier one.

Thanks. It just seemed strange that it is so much more powerful (maximized weapon damage on critical hit vs. auto-confirm and all damage maximized on crits, even if you have to take it twice.) But since pretty much everyone I showed it to agrees. :D

Chemlak wrote:

From designer comments (specifically the Legendary Item Undetectable comment from SRM), unlike any other part of the rules, when interpreting a mythic ability, go for the more powerful interpretation.

Because mythic.

Legendary Item Undetectable? SRM? Sorry, I'm afraid you lost me there.

Regarding the Bolded: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-magic-items/legendary-items

Scroll all the way down, and you'll see the "Undetectable" mod. I forget exactly what was said in the discussion in question, but it was basically "How undetectable, is Undetectable?". The answer was along the lines of:

Completely, and totally, undetectable, because Mythic.

Here's the thread.


Legowaffles wrote:

Regarding the Bolded: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-magic-items/legendary-items

Scroll all the way down, and you'll see the "Undetectable" mod. I forget exactly what was said in the discussion in question, but it was basically "How undetectable, is Undetectable?". The answer was along the lines of:

Completely, and totally, undetectable, because Mythic.

On topic I'm of the general opinion that Critical Master maximizes everything as well. As such, yes, it would tend to make Maximized Critical redundant, and even a poor option should you know you'll make it to 6th or higher tiers.

It's worth mentioning that Maximized...

Chemlak wrote:
Here's the thread.

Thanks, that seems insanely powerful. But I guess that's what Mythic is about.

Landon Winkler wrote:

My reading is that, yes, Critical Master is super awesome with sneak attack (or vital strike) and eventually makes Maximized Critical redundant.

Cheers!
Landon

Hm, I'm actually thinking about a build with Vital Strike (Mythic), Impossible Speed and Spring Attack. The only issue I have with it is that you only have one shot per round and waste it on a miss. But that's the way it was in Star Wars Saga Edition unless you spend a huge amount of feats and class abilities and the character could cast true strike...


Navarion wrote:
Legowaffles wrote:

Regarding the Bolded: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-magic-items/legendary-items

Scroll all the way down, and you'll see the "Undetectable" mod. I forget exactly what was said in the discussion in question, but it was basically "How undetectable, is Undetectable?". The answer was along the lines of:

Completely, and totally, undetectable, because Mythic.

On topic I'm of the general opinion that Critical Master maximizes everything as well. As such, yes, it would tend to make Maximized Critical redundant, and even a poor option should you know you'll make it to 6th or higher tiers.

It's worth mentioning that Maximized...

Chemlak wrote:
Here's the thread.

Thanks, that seems insanely powerful. But I guess that's what Mythic is about.

Landon Winkler wrote:

My reading is that, yes, Critical Master is super awesome with sneak attack (or vital strike) and eventually makes Maximized Critical redundant.

Cheers!
Landon

Hm, I'm actually thinking about a build with Vital Strike (Mythic), Impossible Speed and Spring Attack. The only issue I have with it is that you only have one shot per round and waste it on a miss. But that's the way it was in Star Wars Saga Edition unless you spend a huge amount of feats and class abilities and the character could cast true strike...

Regarding the bolded, I could be very wrong, but I am pretty certain if you're a Champion you have two shots per round to make the enemy miserable and/or stark terrified of your superiority.

Vital Strike:
"When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total."

Fleet Charge Champion Strike:
"As a swift action, you can expend one use of mythic power to move up to your speed. At any point during this movement, you can make a single melee or ranged attack at your highest attack bonus, adding your tier to the attack roll. This is in addition to any other attacks you make this round. Damage from this attack bypasses all damage reduction."

Fleet Charge specifies you can make a single melee or ranged attack. Due to Vital Strike being an Attack Action, I think it is valid to use here.

Can anyone confirm/deny this? Because if not, I think I really want to try it myself now. With a Scythe, naturally.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nope. Fleet charge lets you make a single attack, it does not let you take the attack action. Vital Strike (mythic or not) cannot be used with it. Though there's nothing stopping you Fleet Charging, hitting, and then mythic Vital Striking.


Navarion wrote:
Hm, I'm actually thinking about a build with Vital Strike (Mythic), Impossible Speed and Spring Attack. The only issue I have with it is that you only have one shot per round and waste it on a miss. But that's the way it was in Star Wars Saga Edition unless you spend a huge amount of feats and class abilities and the character could cast true strike...

Yeah, it's crazy with mythic vital strike. But I'm pretty sure a limp noodle is crazy with mythic vital strike.

No real need to push the game to its limits in mythic, just enjoy the ride :)

That said, I don't expect you'll be missing very often at full BAB.

Cheers!
Landon


Chemlak wrote:
Nope. Fleet charge lets you make a single attack, it does not let you take the attack action. Vital Strike (mythic or not) cannot be used with it. Though there's nothing stopping you Fleet Charging, hitting, and then mythic Vital Striking.

Pity.

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