New Iconics Desexed


Pathfinder Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Alex Smith 908 wrote:

Seltiyel is really the only overtly sexualized male iconic around. Which you know if people keep shouting balance we need more of. At least two more skimpy fey pretty boys are needed. Preferably in some form of light bondage or distress in 50% of their images.

I swear I have no agenda.

Well, I do have an agenda and I second this motion!


Samy wrote:
Nicos wrote:
The best thing to have is variety.

Then who's the Seoni of the new iconics?

I'd argue that the class of 2014 has reduced variety compared to the original iconics. With the original crop, you had stripperific Seoni and fully covered up Seelah, with lots of people in-between like midriff-but-totally-badass Amiri.

Now, IMO, the Seoni end of the spectrum has been cut away and all we're left with is middle to conservative, from Amiri to Seelah types.

We already have a Seoni.


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Threeshades wrote:
That's right! So are Droogami and Daji!

It's ridiculous that the only nude iconics are beasts! I demand more nudes of the other humanoid iconics!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
Threeshades wrote:
That's right! So are Droogami and Daji!
It's ridiculous that the only nude iconics are beasts! I demand more nudes of the other humanoid iconics!

Check the DeviantArt Threads.


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I do not like the way the iconics are dressed, primarily because I prefer to set all of my adventures in or near a tavern/inn/brothel, where the challenges are mostly related to getting your cloths back after a night of over indulgence.

The current iconic artwork doesn't reflect my games at all.

Dark Archive

Threeshades wrote:
That's right! So are Droogami and Daji!

Daji? Is that the name of Harsk's badger?

Ezren and Seoni have been seen with an owl and lizard, respectively, and not a stitch of clothing on either of them. Scandal! Pathfinder promotes the sexual exploitation of animals! Clearly the only solution is to rename animals 'bataazu' or 'tanari' or something!

Also, Halfling foot fetishists. Must take a stand to stamp out this wrongness.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Set wrote:
Also, Halfling foot fetishists. Must take a stand to stamp out this wrongness.

I see what you did there...


Abraham spalding wrote:
Sajan's abs intimidate you?

Him and Amiri are just too buff for this particular itch. They fill a more general "dreamy protector" role as opposed to the "boy/girl-toy floozy" one that Seltiyel occupies.


Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Sajan's abs intimidate you?
Him and Amiri are just too buff for this particular itch. They fill a more general "dreamy protector" role as opposed to the "boy/girl-toy floozy" one that Seltiyel occupies.

Fair enough -- just teasing anyways (not that I think you took me seriously).

Project Manager

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Samy wrote:
Nicos wrote:
The best thing to have is variety.

Then who's the Seoni of the new iconics?

I'd argue that the class of 2014 has reduced variety compared to the original iconics. With the original crop, you had stripperific Seoni and fully covered up Seelah, with lots of people in-between like midriff-but-totally-badass Amiri.

Now, IMO, the Seoni end of the spectrum has been cut away and all we're left with is middle to conservative, from Amiri to Seelah types.

So, look: it's fair to like or dislike the new iconics for any number of reasons.

But.

To have variety, the spectrum that female characters fall on doesn't have to be "stripperific" to "conservative." There are all sorts of other spectrums they could be on. (Highly ornate clothing to plain clothing. Warm weather clothing to cold weather clothing. Clothing that draws inspiration from different real-world cultures. Expensive, pristine appearances to worn, lived-in, functional ones.)

Essentially, what you seem to be saying is that the only way to have variety of appearances for women is to differ in the amount of sex appeal they display. It's like saying the only way for a bunch of women to look different is through different hair color, and implies that the only important thing about the way any of the female characters look is how sexy they are.


also
still have the hunter iconic left to see

Dark Archive

Set wrote:
Threeshades wrote:
That's right! So are Droogami and Daji!

Daji? Is that the name of Harsk's badger?

Ezren and Seoni have been seen with an owl and lizard, respectively, and not a stitch of clothing on either of them. Scandal! Pathfinder promotes the sexual exploitation of animals! Clearly the only solution is to rename animals 'bataazu' or 'tanari' or something!

Also, Halfling foot fetishists. Must take a stand to stamp out this wrongness.

Daji is Feiyra's familiar (i.e. he's the fox with the witch).


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Necromancer wrote:
Alex Smith 908 wrote:

Seltiyel is really the only overtly sexualized male iconic around. Which you know if people keep shouting balance we need more of. At least two more skimpy fey pretty boys are needed. Preferably in some form of light bondage or distress in 50% of their images.

I swear I have no agenda.

Well, I do have an agenda and I second this motion!

*scribbles a note in her sketchbook*


EVERYONE NEEDS MOAR SKEXY ICONIKS!!! MOAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Selytiel = pure sex poured into black leather!


Abraham spalding wrote:
Threeshades wrote:
That's right! So are Droogami and Daji!
It's ridiculous that the only nude iconics are beasts! I demand more nudes of the other humanoid iconics!

I, on the other tentacle, believe we should see more iconic critters fashionably dressed. Such as Kolo sporting full Rocketeer cosplay... Daji sporting a top hat, monocle, jaunty scarf, stylish vest, and swordcane... Biter nakkid but for a fez...


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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Threeshades wrote:
That's right! So are Droogami and Daji!
It's ridiculous that the only nude iconics are beasts! I demand more nudes of the other humanoid iconics!
I, on the other tentacle, believe we should see more iconic critters fashionably dressed. Such as Kolo sporting full Rocketeer cosplay... Daji sporting a top hat, monocle, jaunty scarf, stylish vest, and swordcane... Biter nakkid but for a fez...

I would normally second this but instead I will square it as it just sounds awesome.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Threeshades wrote:
That's right! So are Droogami and Daji!
It's ridiculous that the only nude iconics are beasts! I demand more nudes of the other humanoid iconics!
I, on the other tentacle, believe we should see more iconic critters fashionably dressed. Such as Kolo sporting full Rocketeer cosplay... Daji sporting a top hat, monocle, jaunty scarf, stylish vest, and swordcane... Biter nakkid but for a fez...

That's it: I'm putting a top hat on the next familiar/animal companion I get. The smaller the beast, the fancier the top hat.


exactly


The first time I see a familiar in a porkpie hat, I am quiting this game forever


Lamontius wrote:
exactly

Seoni's skink, Dragon, would dress in full Lamontius cosplay, including the facepaint. And a tiny flask of the finest Andoren bourbon.


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Red Velvet Tiger wrote:

EVERYONE NEEDS MOAR SKEXY ICONIKS!!! MOAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Selytiel = pure sex poured into black leather!

Where he's going in my sketchbook, he doesn't need leather.

Also, I feel compelled to point out that when art is depicted in either extreme all the time is the problem. There's a time and place for pinups, and a time and place for being an armored juggernaut, and a wide variety between both points is most desirable and as the situation of the art warrants. :)


Oh my, that sounds rather interesting, Lilith!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Also did everyone foget about the mythic adventures book or something? (Seriously going by that it seems the secret of mythic power is to take half your clothing off.)


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Kevin Mack wrote:
Also did everyone foget about the mythic adventures book or something? (Seriously going by that it seems the secret of mythic power is to take half your clothing off.)

see, I am fine with this

I call it the Tequila Theorem
because when I am deep into a half-rack of Schmidt's Ice, I sure feel pretty mythic
and at that point my shirt usually comes off


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Lilith wrote:
Red Velvet Tiger wrote:

EVERYONE NEEDS MOAR SKEXY ICONIKS!!! MOAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Selytiel = pure sex poured into black leather!

Where he's going in my sketchbook, he doesn't need leather.

Also, I feel compelled to point out that when art is depicted in either extreme all the time is the problem. There's a time and place for pinups, and a time and place for being an armored juggernaut, and a wide variety between both points is most desirable and as the situation of the art warrants. :)

Oh general thought and point of order:

Paizo, when you get artwork of Iconics I would LOVE to see multiple pictures of the iconics in different outfits.

Seeing how the character dresses in different situations is awesome and helps break people of the thought, "But I have to always where my breast plate" or what not.

It's also fun to see what doesn't change in their clothing. Like the specific jewelry they keep, or such.

Finally the different outfits can help show faster than words ever will important points about cultures.


The heck with that...I want Iconic Paper Dress up dolls

Or, better yet, Iconic Dolfies!


Abraham spalding wrote:
Lilith wrote:
Red Velvet Tiger wrote:

EVERYONE NEEDS MOAR SKEXY ICONIKS!!! MOAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Selytiel = pure sex poured into black leather!

Where he's going in my sketchbook, he doesn't need leather.

Also, I feel compelled to point out that when art is depicted in either extreme all the time is the problem. There's a time and place for pinups, and a time and place for being an armored juggernaut, and a wide variety between both points is most desirable and as the situation of the art warrants. :)

Oh general thought and point of order:

Paizo, when you get artwork of Iconics I would LOVE to see multiple pictures of the iconics in different outfits.

Seeing how the character dresses in different situations is awesome and helps break people of the thought, "But I have to always where my breast plate" or what not.

It's also fun to see what doesn't change in their clothing. Like the specific jewelry they keep, or such.

Finally the different outfits can help show faster than words ever will important points about cultures.

Sadly that's not likely to be common. I'd like to see it too, but it's probably going to be reserved for special occasions.

Much of the point of the iconics is so they can hand an artist the picture of Selytiel and say "We need art of him fighting a troll."
Designing new outfits is a much more involved process. It's come up occasionally in APs, though.


Lamontius wrote:

also

still have the hunter iconic left to see

My favorite Iconic art so far.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:

It's also fun to see what doesn't change in their clothing. Like the specific jewelry they keep, or such.

Finally the different outfits can help show faster than words ever will important points about cultures.

Only time iconics get a new set of clothes is when they go mythic. Seltyiel didn't even get a new outfit when he changed out of Eldritch Knight!


LazarX wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

It's also fun to see what doesn't change in their clothing. Like the specific jewelry they keep, or such.

Finally the different outfits can help show faster than words ever will important points about cultures.

Only time iconics get a new set of clothes is when they go mythic. Seltyiel didn't even get a new outfit when he changed out of Eldritch Knight!

Weren't there a couple of cold weather outfits for Reign of Winter?


I don't know about RoW, but Jade Regent does in the third book.

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

As a femme who likes her women butch, I'm just happy I get both the strong, confident women I like to play as -- Feiya and Seoni -- and the shameless eye-candy -- Kess and Amiri.

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Iconics in different outfits is probably more likely to appear in the comic book series.


LazarX wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

It's also fun to see what doesn't change in their clothing. Like the specific jewelry they keep, or such.

Finally the different outfits can help show faster than words ever will important points about cultures.

Only time iconics get a new set of clothes is when they go mythic. Seltyiel didn't even get a new outfit when he changed out of Eldritch Knight!

There were a couple in the GM guide.

I'm not expecting a huge amount of them and I know that the iconics will have a default look and outfit of course. But a couple of different outfits here or there wouldn't be a bad thing.

But I do know better than to hold my breath waiting for it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jessica Price wrote:
Essentially, what you seem to be saying is that the only way to have variety of appearances for women is to differ in the amount of sex appeal they display.

Absolutely not. What I'm saying is that on all the other spectrums, I'm already satisfied in the variety displayed. Skin colors, hair colors, body types, attitude types, sexualities... Well, maybe not body types. I could stand to see a bony-protrusion-thin iconic and a fat iconic.

Of *course* there are many, MANY spectrums of variety. The fact that I'm focusing on one doesn't mean I think it's the only spectrum -- it only means it's the only spectrum where I think variety is lacking.

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Whelp the final iconic is out now; I am a bit disappointed. No Arcadian, no attractive male, but meh. Not like I really ever use the iconics for anything anyway.


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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
I, on the other tentacle, believe we should see more iconic critters fashionably dressed. Such as Kolo sporting full Rocketeer cosplay... Daji sporting a top hat, monocle, jaunty scarf, stylish vest, and swordcane... Biter nakkid but for a fez...

I would just like to say, that despite what rumors you may have heard, the times Daji has been seen wearing bipedal fashion accessories were all fully consensual.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
Coridan wrote:
Whelp the final iconic is out now; I am a bit disappointed. No Arcadian, no attractive male, but meh. Not like I really ever use the iconics for anything anyway.

Given that Arcadia is practically an unknown continent, it would be strange for such a person to be an iconic member of a class. By definition they'd be an exceptional, or rare member.


Lilith wrote:
Red Velvet Tiger wrote:

EVERYONE NEEDS MOAR SKEXY ICONIKS!!! MOAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seltyiel = pure sex poured into black leather!

Where he's going in my sketchbook, he doesn't need leather.

wonders if artwork involves Seltyiel searching for two keys...one key...lockpicks...

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
Coridan wrote:
Whelp the final iconic is out now; I am a bit disappointed. No Arcadian, no attractive male, but meh. Not like I really ever use the iconics for anything anyway.
Given that Arcadia is practically an unknown continent, it would be strange for such a person to be an iconic member of a class. By definition they'd be an exceptional, or rare member.

So is Vudra and we got Sajan.

Dark Archive

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Coridan wrote:
So is Vudra and we got Sajan.

And whatever the heck Seoni is supposed to be. :)

(Yeah, it says 'Varisian' on the tin, but she looks exactly *nothing* like the description of Varisians in the game. Skin-tone and tattoos, she actually looks more Shoanti!)

Plus, 'Iconic' doesn't mean 'traditional' or 'stereotypical' anyway. The 'iconic' dwarf drinks tea. The 'iconic' elf isn't a spellcaster. The 'iconic' fighter doesn't do sword & board *or* use a two-handed weapon. The 'iconic' barbarian is using a weapon of the wrong size class. The 'iconic' cleric is holding a sword!

It's a brave new world, baby.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Set wrote:
Coridan wrote:
So is Vudra and we got Sajan.

And whatever the heck Seoni is supposed to be. :)

(Yeah, it says 'Varisian' on the tin, but she looks exactly *nothing* like the description of Varisians in the game. Skin-tone and tattoos, she actually looks more Shoanti!)

Re-read the description of Varisian. She falls pretty squarely in the middle of that spectrum. The problem is that she looks almost nothing like any other Varisian that we have seen a picture of, at least until Shattered Star gave us the Tower Girls & some pictures of them. Really, she looks a lot like the unnamed Tower Girl depicted in the Crow description and even a little like Terisha Skiloni. But yes, the vast majority of the other depictions of Varisians we have seen have borne very little resemblance to the only Iconic Varisian Paizo has published do far...


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There has been a lot that has been said in this thread since I last posted. While part of me wants to respond to a lot of them individually, it just isn't going to happen.

Other than simply not liking it, I don't think I have seen an opposition opinion that has lacked hypocrisy.

People cry for more sexy men, there are many threads comparing what that means to different people and what they look like. Everyone seems to support it or stay silent. Many exposed men with what I imagine to be sex appeal get printed in the new iconics lineup.

People have threads wanting more instances of homosexuality. Most people on the boards are supportive of the idea, the few that aren't have the decency to be honest and say they can't really argue why they don't like it other than the fact that they don't. Material gets published with homosexuality in a positive or neutral light.

People want more transgender material. Material gets published.

People say they want sexy women. A flood begins where claims are made of being sexist. This is evidence of a horrible society. There are claims of women being subjugated. Women who share this want of material are ignored while people keep spouting off that this is a desire of piggish men. A high ranking staff member comes in and sarcastically dismisses the concern. Nonsense about realistic battle gear is cited as evidence the women should be dressed in their massive, frumpy layers, despite the same standards not being expected of the men.....or the 32423143 other things in the game that split from realism.

Who exactly is the group of privilege here? I really couldn't hope to count the number of hours of enjoyment I have gotten out of this game. But I can safety say as a matter of principle, I have never been more disappointed by it.


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You did not asked for more sexy women, you made a bold statemment that was shown to be not true.


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Dude.

What.

There hasn't been "opposition" -- no one has said, "No this shouldn't be a part of gaming."

There has been a discussion on what "eyecandy" says about our society or how it is presented, and if it is evenhanded or not and a million other things.

But not once did a developer or employee of Paizo come in here and say, "You know what, we will not have any eyecandy or skimpy dressing for any more iconics from here on out."

I can almost guarantee there will be more eyecandy. If for no other reason than Freya, Seona, and all the other iconics are still the core iconics and therefore will be used more than the others in artwork for Paizo.

And on a serious note, if the fact that a company that people have discussed what they would like to see and how what has been affects them and other causes you to think you should be disappointed because you somehow are getting what you want and everyone else is, and somehow that means they are privileged.

No NOW I'm mad. They finally got an equal say. Grow up. For once they have a company that says, "Yeah we can make that happen." What you have gotten your entire life has finally happened for them. They are your equal and now you have to wait your turn.

It's no longer all about the semi-nude female for you to look at. Your tastes are not central and quite frankly this is a good thing.

At least have the good grace to wait your turn.

The basic idea of the thread, "Hey this is what I would like to see more of and it feels like you are over swinging in the other direction." Alright that was fair to be brought up as your opinion.

This last post however? It's crap.

Liberty's Edge

Thank you Abraham. That was awesome.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I feel that we have balance now. There are pinup-worthy iconics, middle of the road iconics and your Christian Coalition dad would approve you dating her iconics. And that's how things should be, IMHO.


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So I decided to go back and look at all the iconics, in the order they were introduced, and compare exposed fleshy bits. Starting from Valeros (fighter), I'll link and describe what bits of their anatomy have been blatantly exposed...this is important in the US for some reason...

Valeros the Fighter - forehead, face, ears, neck, elbows, and upper forearms, fingers

Seoni the Sorceress - forehead, face, partial neck, shoulders, upper arms, hands, partial breasts, sternum, shoulder blades, lower back, partial lower abdomen, hips, thighs, knees

Merisiel the Rogue - forehead, face, ears, partial neck, underarms, hands, partial upper chest, partial sternum, partial breasts

Kyra the Cleric - face, hands, partial forearms

Ezren the Wizard - forehead, face, partial neck, partial forearms, fingers

Harsk the Ranger - forehead, face

Seelah the Paladin - forehead, face, ears, neck

Lem the Bard - forehead, face, ears, neck, partial upper chest, partial hand, partial forearms, fingers, partial feet, toes

Sajan the Monk - scalp, forehead, face, ears, neck, hands, partial lower chest, partial sternum, upper abdomen, partial feet

Amiri the Barbarian - forehead, face, partial ears, partial underarm, abdomen, partial hips, partial thigh

Lini the Druid - forehead, face, ears, neck, partial upper arms, fingers, partial thigh

Seltyiel the Magus - forehead, face, ears, partial neck, partial upper arms, elbows, fingers, partial chest, partial upper abdomen

Alahazra the Oracle - face, partial neck, partial forearms, hands, partial breasts, abdomen, partial thigh

Alain the Cavalier - forehead, face, ears, partial neck

Damiel the Alchemist - forehead, face, ears, fingers

Hayato the Samurai - partial face, partial fingers

Lirianne the Gunslinger - partial face, ears, partial breasts, partial abdomen

Reiko the Ninja - eyes, nose, fingers

Feiya the Witch - face, partial neck, shoulders, partial upper arms, elbows, fingers, partial breasts, partial thighs

Imrijka the Inquisitor - partial face, partial ears, partial breasts

Balazar the Summoner - partial face, partial forearms, hands

Jirelle the Swashbuckler - forehead, face, ears, partial neck, partial fingers

Quinn the Investigator - scalp, forehead, face, ears, partial neck, partial forearms

Oloch the Warpriest - partial face, partial ears, partial neck, shoulders, upper arms, fingers, knees

Crowe the Bloodrager - scalp, forehead, face, ears, neck, partial chest, upper abdomen, underarms, fingers, partial thighs

Enora the Arcanist - forehead, face, neck, partial shoulders, partial upper chest, hands, toes

Hakon the Skald - forehead, face, partial ears, partial neck, forearms, elbows, hands

Kess the Brawler - face, neck, partial upper arm, partial abdomen, partial thighs

Zadim the Slayer - partial face

Shardra the Shaman - face, partial sternum, partial forearms, hands, partial thighs, knees, partial leg, toes

Adowyn the Hunter - forehead, face, partial neck, fingers

that took longer than I expected...


Hiya.

pres man wrote:


What kind of armor, by the way, only has arms and limbs covered and not the torso? I'm just wondering so that I can perhaps combine it with a breastplate armor for my character and get twice the armor bonus.

The answer is: Someone who want everyone to focus attention on one area to attack. Kind of like how, as some have surmised, Batman has a big yellow ellipse with a black bat-symbol right in the center of his chest. It draws the bad guys attention to it, so when they see a "moving shadow" out of the corner of their eye and then turn their head...they see the yellow ellipse and shoot for it. Which, obviously, has the best armor protection.

With Crowe, same thing but in D&D terms. Y'see, Crowe obviously wants people to try and stab him in the chest/abdomen. It's all a ruse, however, as Crowes player hides all Crowes HP's in his arms and legs. ;)

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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And just like that, although I have thought about not posting on the paizo board again, I have to do it, with a question:

Why does everyone think that sexy has ANYTHING to do with how much of the body is covered, or precisely, how less? Is that the only thing you can think of when imagining sexy men and women? Bare skin? Really?

On another note: I was terribly, TERRIBLY disappointed with the art in the Inner Sea Gods hardcover. Besides the Calistrian cleric and some evil female clerics (why evil?) most of the women dressed in stuff so concealing I asked myself: Are these women afraid of showing that they are women?

Really, I don't want to live in any place where sexiness is measured by the amount of skin I choose to show and where I AS A WOMAN MYSELF get told by OTHER WOMEN what is sexist or proper and how I am sexist when I enjoy sexy (yes, and most often, nude) artwork of women. THAT is sexist. And saying that muscular men in the media (you wouldn't want to hear women around here talking about these men) are MALE power fantasies... that's just... wow. I'm done for now. Really.

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