Twitch traget is back


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

It does seem that for so many, the player SKILL to target is important.

Yet another proposal has gone out, ignoring all the discussion that has gone before.

THis is not MVP, but how would this be implemented as a crowd forged option.

As it is, targeting is not perfect but as one of 3 d100 rolls. Twitch should not be better or not much better than those who can not twitch.

I proposed (in response to yet another request on Ideascale. THese issues will keep coming because for many this will be pat of immersion. Nad others of us just twitch!

that those getting twitch option lose and amount, say 7% off their d100 "roll". Based upon there twitch accuracy they get upto 10% added back, initially linear on how good twitch is on target, but shifted based upon critical cases ( only counting cases where twitch matters {taking a twitch chance where even -7% hits are not counted] ) 0 to 10%. THose who are good get 3% bonus.

NUmbers are debatable. THis need to be play adjusted if this it too high, may be only .2% or .1 percent.

Some player will want to do this even if it is a lose:lose situation. It is the experience they want.

I know I am asking a lot of debs and this should be crowd forged, but it may increase customer. A game is basically making it hard to do something simple.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Do you have a response to the technological reasons why twitch targeting is impossible?

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Not only can't I comprehend what you are ranting about, but I can't tell if you are ranting for it or against it.

Could you maybe post a "for dummies" book version of your rant?

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Do you have a response to the technological reasons why twitch targeting is impossible?

Elder Scrolls Online.

It's not full on twitch but it will satisfy most people who want that (while turning away less who don't) and it's far from impossible. Hell full on twitch is very possible as demonstrated by Darkfall and Mortal. It's just very hard on people without awesome pings/FPS. I actually enjoyed ESO's targeting system more than DF or MO. It's the perfect compromise between full twitch and tab targetting.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I thought the discussion by the Devs during the Twitch Live stream was that there will still be tab targeting but also line of sight, obviously for ranged attacks.

Tab Targeting + Line of Sight = / = Twitch Targeting.

If you keep you target on your visual screen, you can target and hit it. No one is talking about keeping a crosshair on a target, that would be twitch targeting.


I made the thread about the Tab Targeting he is talking about here:

https://pathfinderonlinecrowdforging.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Changes-to-the-Tab -Targeting-Combat-System/44907-30320

Yep I feel that tab+mass click spam spell/sword/shooting won't be engaging not saying the game as a whole just that mechanic.

Also even though Lam disagrees with me, and respectfully so I did ask for other alternatives which he provided, and I am actually cool with his suggestion.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Say no to twitch combat, that's my motto!

Goblin Squad Member

<Kabal> Pexx wrote:
Link

Fixed it for you. :)

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ryan Dancey wrote:

I would say that one of the dead-ends that has been thoroughly explored and found wanting is the idea of open world sandbox play with lots of PvP that requires player skill and fast-twitch responses. Sounds great (to some folks), but in practice its not commercially viable.

First, if you want those kinds of games, the FPS market is waiting for you. They do it better than Goblinworks would ever be able to.

Second, while it is not obvious, in most MMOs there's a multi-second latency between actions. Most MMOs hide this in the animations (you feel like you're in total control but actually the client is showing you pretty pictures while it waits for the next cycle in the command queue). This latency makes aiming, and fast-twitch responses work much more poorly than you intuitively think they should which generates complaints about "lag" and "unresponsive controls". The larger the number of participants in a given game space, the more commands need to be received by the server, processed, and the results transmitted to the clients. Combined with inherent latencies in the internet, these multi-second intervals are effectively a requirement (and they're the reason that you don't see games like Battlefield or Call of Duty scale above a couple of dozen fighters).

(EVE has apparently solved one of their longstanding problems with lag in huge fleet battles (more than 1,000 active participants on the same battlespace) by actually expanding the length of the command queue. They call this "time dilation", and it effectively slows down the action to allow the server and clients to process more commands between each "tick" of the queue. Everyone moves more slowly, and it takes longer for cooldowns to expire, but you can actually play with some meaningful level of interactivity as opposed to either watching a slide-show, or being disconnected due to timeouts. When we scale up to anything approaching that size, we may find ourselves needing a similar solution. This potential makes "player skill / fast-twitch" games even less viable.)

Third, because of market segmentation (see point #1 above), the audience for open world / sandbox MMO play contains relatively few people who actually want this kind of game style, compared with the total number of folks who are interested in the general concept. Catering to it tends to alienate the majority, and never really satisfies the target minority.

So don't expect it in Pathfinder Online.

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Valkenr wrote:
The target/ability bar has really been done to death and i think a lot of people are looking for a new feel.
I don't disagree with that. I think there's a huge design space to be explored. We just won't be exploring the one where you aim with player skill and twitch in response to stimuli.


I think people are missing my point. Sure twitch clicking is an option, and so is tab targeting. I asked for more suggestions cause simple tab targeting is boringsville. But apparently twitch combat gives people nightmares. I am just asking for method of "aiming" and "control" over my combat abilities be they sword,spell,bow etc...

Do I know what would make everyone happy? Certainly not, I just through up what I knew, and I am open ears to whatever else people decide to come up with.

How about instead of deliberating over the big bad wolf of twitch killing you make your suggestion in the comment section of my post.

And I'll say it again I made a couple of ideas emphasis on "ideas" and I am asking for some more constructive ideas from my post.

.@Giorgo
Thanks for the linky I tried to make my URL link, but I didn't see an option to do so.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm ok with tab targeting if facing is implemented. Running away while you shoot through your own body is pretty dumb and makes kiting in PvP the number 1 tactic.

If circle strafing is a concern with melee (as it should be), melee attack arc could be 230 degrees, ranged attacks should be much more narrow. In a perfect world I would say 130 degrees, but allowing for latency may have to be bumped to 180. That is if latency and facing becomes an issue as it has in a few other games.

I do agree with Andius that ESO's system was a great mix of tab + twitch.

Also what Bludd said holds true, Pointing your character in a vague direction that your target is in is not twitch targeting. Twitch is pointing your aim reticle ON the hitbox of your opponent.

Goblin Squad Member

Summersnow wrote:

Not only can't I comprehend what you are ranting about, but I can't tell if you are ranting for it or against it.

Could you maybe post a "for dummies" book version of your rant?

This.

I have no idea what a Twitch Traget is.

Goblin Squad Member

<Kabal> Pexx wrote:
Thanks for the linky I tried to make my URL link, but I didn't see an option to do so.

It's not intuitive. You have to construct it with code rather than formatting. If you look below your next post box, there's a button-link to "Show" text formatting.

Goblin Squad Member

Lee, I believe, said they will be adding LoS, and removing the ability to attack directly behind you.

Besides these fixes, here is my suggestion:

Instead of Twitch Targeting/Tab Targeting, you have to have your enemy not only selected, but your attack has to be within so many degrees of your front facing view to hit. Certain attacks, like whirlwind could hit everything in a 360, but just slicing could be 150-200 degrees.

It is a solid compromise between twitch and tab.

Also, I would like to have a button that puts you into combat, even if you aren't in combat, so that I don't have to take a few seconds to draw my weapon. Added to this, I would like to be able to use certain abilities without having to have to tab. For instance, if I am attacking with a fireball, maybe I just want to hit a certain area, and not a specific target.

Goblin Squad Member

During Wildstar beta, they had some fairly free-form targeting. Most abilities seemed to be either a small area, or a cone, or a line effect. It put a big area on the ground that you had to aim to hit someone. I think I remember a couple of tab-targeted abilities also, but it's been a while. Either way, they seemed to have a good alternative to FPS style aiming and normal tab targeting.

Not saying this idea should be implemented. Just that those of you looking for other styles should look into it (I haven't touched it since early beta, so I don't know what its like now) and see if there's anything there that may be worth suggesting for PFO.

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Cheatle wrote:
... your attack has to be within so many degrees of your front facing view to hit.

Facing is pretty much a non-starter at this point, I think.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.
TEO Cheatle wrote:
Also, I would like to have a button that puts you into combat, even if you aren't in combat, so that I don't have to take a few seconds to draw my weapon.

I've bugged this. During the animations for drawing and putting away your weapon, you can't use any abilities. This is actually pretty frustrating at times because I always seem to be putting my weapon away right as True Strike refreshes. I also see myself putting my weapon away while kiting sometimes, which can be rough.

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:

I would say that one of the dead-ends that has been thoroughly explored and found wanting is the idea of open world sandbox play with lots of PvP that requires player skill and fast-twitch responses. Sounds great (to some folks), but in practice its not commercially viable.

First, if you want those kinds of games, the FPS market is waiting for you. They do it better than Goblinworks would ever be able to.

Second, while it is not obvious, in most MMOs there's a multi-second latency between actions. Most MMOs hide this in the animations (you feel like you're in total control but actually the client is showing you pretty pictures while it waits for the next cycle in the command queue). This latency makes aiming, and fast-twitch responses work much more poorly than you intuitively think they should which generates complaints about "lag" and "unresponsive controls". The larger the number of participants in a given game space, the more commands need to be received by the server, processed, and the results transmitted to the clients. Combined with inherent latencies in the internet, these multi-second intervals are effectively a requirement (and they're the reason that you don't see games like Battlefield or Call of Duty scale above a couple of dozen fighters).

(EVE has apparently solved one of their longstanding problems with lag in huge fleet battles (more than 1,000 active participants on the same battlespace) by actually expanding the length of the command queue. They call this "time dilation", and it effectively slows down the action to allow the server and clients to process more commands between each "tick" of the queue. Everyone moves more slowly, and it takes longer for cooldowns to expire, but you can actually play with some meaningful level of interactivity as opposed to either watching a slide-show, or being disconnected due to timeouts. When we scale up to anything approaching that size,

...

To those who are still lobbying for twitch-style combat or even hybrid twitch-style combat: please reread Ryan's comments above and let it go. Pathfinder Online is not going to be that type of game. There are several games out there already which have that gameplay if you want it.

Personally, I don't want twitch-style combat in PFO and I don't want the vocal minority influencing the development process toward that end. Consider this my vote against twitch gameplay.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

If combat isn't compelling enough PvPers will leave, and some of the PvEers will as well. If PvP dries up, the game will eventually dry up as well, since they are banking on PvP providing a large amount of playable content.

Personally, I am here for TEO mostly for the long haul, although things may change depending on what direction the Devs choose. I a waiting on formations to be implemented and balanced before making any major decisions.

CEO, Goblinworks

The "compelling" part of combat cannot be player reflexes because in an MMO, especially a high-density MMO player reflexes are never going to be a meaningful component of combat. And because lots of other game types will deliver that kind of combat in vastly superior fashion and we cannot compete.

Goblin Squad Member

@Ryan
As Pexx comments, I do not want twitch, but there seem to be a lot on mmorg that want it. If it is not feasible, it sounds like deems (similar to my interest in playing a Summoner) which is not supported by the technology or those who want to see all of PF implemented as a PvE (not supported by the budget, possibly not serrated by 20 - 100 times the budget).

This is MVP and then growing, not everyones fantastic dream, but a good play. I must say that I enjoyed the demos at Paizo Con, for what they were.

Goblin Squad Member

I don't think we need twitch, but I agree we might need something different. I am waiting on what all you guys roll out before making any final decisions.

Also, perhaps in the next build allow some sort of way to PvP without rep hits?

Goblin Squad Member

Alzaric wrote:
To those who are still lobbying for twitch-style combat or even hybrid twitch-style combat: please reread Ryan's comments above and let it go.

Ryan has said nothing that leads me to believe smart-targeting will not be an option at some point in the future.

I think we are unfortunately stuck with tab-targetting for now but I will continue to express my opinion that smart targeting is a vastly superior system and tab-targeting is a worn out/archaic/inferior system that has no place in any top notch title.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
I will continue to express my opinion that smart targeting is a vastly superior system and tab-targeting is a worn out/archaic/inferior system that has no place in any top notch title.

I suspect this is a common argument between those in their twenties who still have excellent reflexes and those of us over 50 for whom that is not, so much, the case. One day, you too will express pleasure when the mouse ends up in the approximate quadrant where you intended it.

Goblin Squad Member

My reflexes suck for a 25 year old. I'm 6'7" so my brainwaves have a long way to go to reach my fingertips. I've always been a bit shy of my full potential in reflexes that rely on full twitch. The game's where I really dominated the most in terms of how well I played my character were Guild Wars (the original) and The Old Republic.

That being said:

1. Raw skill at playing your character is a tiny fraction of the equation of success in a Open World PvP title.
2. Smart targeting shouldn't push your twitch skills to the edge unless you're missing one eye, half blind in the other, and are missing most your fingers.

Goblin Squad Member

Or if one has essential tremor or any of a number of natural progressions that a 20 something thinks will never happen. And what of the vet with one eye, and reduced reactions -- you think they should go play farmville.
Ryan has said that the concept of fractional second reaction does not fit in internet speeds. Not everyone has T-4 let alone terabit connections.
But those in Seattle area would have an advantage. Hmm

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

For any still wondering, here's tab targeting and twitch targeting in a nutshell:

Tab targeting - You hit the Tab key one or more times, and the game cycles through all of the available targets. Once you have a target selected, you will keep aiming attacks at that target until it dies, or until you hit the Tab key again. Note: Many tab targeting systems also allow you to mouse over an enemy and click the mouse button to target it, rather than waiting for the Tab key to cycle through to that particular enemy

Twitch targeting - You have a bullseye on your screen, responding to the movement of your mouse, keyboard, or console-style game controller. When the enemy you want to attack shows up in the crosshairs, you push the attack button. If you want to attack that enemy again, you need to keep the bullseye on it manually.

Hybrid systems - Somewhere in the middle. They might have your client guess which enemy near the bullseye you want to attack, or they might only require you to put the bullseye on a given enemy once, then maintain that target for multiple attacks.

Community / Forums / Paizo / Licensed Products / Digital Games / Pathfinder Online / Twitch traget is back All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Pathfinder Online