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Hi there,
I have a Paladin 2/Lunar Oracle. My plan on taking Boon Companion when I hit Paladin 2/Lunar Oracle 5, to make up the 2 levels of Paladin I missed. However the favored class bonus on Lunar Oracle means I will be able to get 1/2 level on my animal companion each level I go up.
Will taking the favored class bonus make the boon companion ineffective? Or will the boon companion be applied first before any FCBs are considered?
Thanks in advance for the help.
I do not know if there is any official ruling on the order of operations of combining effects, but I believe the commentary Ive seen (especially back in the days when magical knack was being discussed) was to apply the benefits in the order most beneficial to the player. So, you would apply Boon companion first, but the highest level this could take you to would be companion level = character level, so you may not get the full 4 levels of boon companion. You would then apply the FCB on top of this. (The +1 level restriction is PFS only, but not unreasonable)
That is not how it works. Magical Knack and Boon Companion are "gap fillers" for lack of a better term. Basically they only come into play if your effective level is less than your actual character level.
As an example if I am a 5th level wizard with 1 level of fighter my caster level is five. If I get the ioun stone that give me +1 caster level then magical knack does nothing for me. It does not let me count as a level 7 caster just because magical knack lets me cast at a caster level of 6 before the ioun stone was purchased.
Click the FAQ button. I doubt they stack though.
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I believe the best you can do, at this point, and I personally don't agree with it, is look through the "Ask James Jacobs" thread for his response on Magical Knack, which is the gap filler answer mentioned above, where it is added in the least advantageous fashion, rather than in the most beneficial order.
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Based on John Compton's (Developer) post I think the answer is no-ish.
Favored Class Bonus for Half-Elves and Half-Orcs
For the purpose of qualifying for favored class bonuses, half-elves are also treated as both elves and humans, and half-orcs are also treated as humans (but not orcs)—a byproduct of their respective elf blood and orc blood racial traits. Only characters that have the elf blood or orc blood racial trait count as a member of another race for this purpose.Related Point: Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?
No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.This isn’t actually a new rule. It’s just a clarification that I confirmed with the design team because it seemed that some folks were assuming otherwise.
Related Point: Can I have an 18th-level animal companion at level 12?
A character’s effective druid level for determining the abilities of her animal companion (based on Table 3–8 on page 52 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook) cannot increase her animal companion’s Hit Dice above her actual character level + 1. An animal companion receives no additional abilities for its level unless it has the requisite number of Hit Dice; a character can increase her effective druid level further, though these effective levels do not grant any benefit until the character’s actual level increases. For example, a 12th-level aasimar oracle with the nature mystery and the bonded mount revelation could theoretically have an “18th-level” animal companion; however, her animal companion would only be “16th-level” for all abilities because the animal could not have more than 13 Hit Dice.This is a conscious modification to how the rules work for the few cases that would allow a character to have an animal companion with a higher effective level than she does—primarily related to oracles’ use of the aasimar and elf alternate favored class bonuses. Such characters can still receive considerable benefits from such an investment of favored class points, but the mechanical edge is not as overwhelming for an ability that is persistent and potentially game-changing. The above information will be included in an FAQ entry, and a note will appear in the Additional Resources entry for Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide.
Do I get to rebuild?
An aasimar or elf affected by this change may freely change her race, favored class point assignments, and any character options (e.g. feats, race-specific spells and archetypes, etc.) dependent on being a member of that race.I understand that some folks may only be playing an aasimar or elf because of the extraordinarily potent favored class bonuses. This change may have made some of those favored class bonus assignments redundant or illegal. Perhaps this “ruins” your character and you want to reconsider your race choice. I’m fine with you changing these things. Everything else (e.g. mystery, revelations, non-race-specific archetype, ability scores, etc.) follows the retraining rules printed in Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Campaign.
Also I think Boon Companion would only be applied after Favored Class Bonus, so once the FCB causes you to reach effectively your character level Boon Companion would provide no benefit.
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Still nothing Concrete :(!
We're all adults here. Since there is "nothing concrete", let's sit down and figure out why. Perhaps the answer is not as open-ended as you think it is.
The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were 4 levels higher, to a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar that has received this benefit, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature
In your example, Paladin-2/Oracle-5, your effective Druid level is already 7, since your FCB gives you +2, making up for your 2 levels of Paladin.
Pathfinder is a game heavily reliant on math. Not every situation needs to be spelled out in a FAQ. The Designers figure that most situations such as this can be worked through by competent adults.
So, no, Boon Companion will not help you in this case.
Still nothing Concrete :(!
No and as stated above. There most likely won't be. You can ask in Mike's PFS question thread. But he will most likely say it is a general rules question and has nothing to do with the PFS specific rule alterations. So you can faq it. But it won't be quick if ever clarified.
I would say most indications from semi-similar types of things seem as though it wouldn't stack to any additional benefit. But yes I can see the ambiguity.
When something isn't real clear, I usually go with don't try it in PFS. Since I don't know if the particular GM that day will agree with me or not, I don't know if my character will work as expected or not.
I remember a specific case a few years ago with a dragons disciple that was cross-blooded with draconic and empyreal. When a GM agreed with allowing it, he was a pretty effective combat monster. When a GM didn't agree with it, he couldn't cast any spells or use several of his bloodline abilities because his charisma was 8.
Eventually, Mike made a ruling on that case and the guy had to remake his character.
Now the exact level of the animal companion is probably not quite as critical to your build. So if you want to try it, I would suggest having 2 sets of stats with you at all PFS sessions. That way if the GM says they won't work you can still play without slowing down the table too much and you are only down by a single non-beneficial feat (you won't be virtually non-functional).
Thats how it would work if the order of operations was not to the players benefit. Name one thing illegal about applying magical knack or boon companion first, neither is raising your level above the cap themselves. The RAW is unclear, and the RAI for this kind of thing usually goes to the players benefit. For example, you can take a feat that requires 5 skill ranks at level 5 because you can set the order of leveling up to choose skills first. Abilities like the oracle FCB are designed to be above and beyond character level, I have no problem with them stacking with abilities that counter multiclassing penalties.I do not know if there is any official ruling on the order of operations of combining effects, but I believe the commentary Ive seen (especially back in the days when magical knack was being discussed) was to apply the benefits in the order most beneficial to the player. So, you would apply Boon companion first, but the highest level this could take you to would be companion level = character level, so you may not get the full 4 levels of boon companion. You would then apply the FCB on top of this. (The +1 level restriction is PFS only, but not unreasonable)That is not how it works. Magical Knack and Boon Companion are "gap fillers" for lack of a better term. Basically they only come into play if your effective level is less than your actual character level.
As an example if I am a 5th level wizard with 1 level of fighter my caster level is five. If I get the ioun stone that give me +1 caster level then magical knack does nothing for me. It does not let me count as a level 7 caster just because magical knack lets me cast at a caster level of 6 before the ioun stone was purchased.
The wording about the cap is what makes it illegal. If you could just say "I do it in this order" the cap is essentially pointless. Basically the feat has a floating value. It goes up or down depending on what other options you have. It is not always set at +4. You can try to add it first, but as soon as you bring in other options it just drops down. That is also how magical knack works also.
That is also how magical knack works also.
Huh. So, Magical Knack won't "stack" with an Orange Prism Ioun Stone? Serious question; I always assumed they would, but it makes sense that they may not.
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It does, it's just that it can't go over it's limit. if you had both, but only had 1 CL lost then one of the items gives a +1 and the other a +0. If you have room for them all then they both work.
Since this is the Rules Questions forum and not a PFS forum, I should point out that only the first of John Compton's answers appears to be generally applicable to non-PFS games. The latter two are definitely PFS-specific house rules, so if you are not playing PFS, it is really up to your GM whether to use them or not.
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That is also how magical knack works also.Huh. So, Magical Knack won't "stack" with an Orange Prism Ioun Stone? Serious question; I always assumed they would, but it makes sense that they may not.
It stacks, but it just can't get you to a point where your caster level is higher than your hit dice.
That is also how magical knack works also.Huh. So, Magical Knack won't "stack" with an Orange Prism Ioun Stone? Serious question; I always assumed they would, but it makes sense that they may not.
It won't be a factor in making your CL go beyond your HD. Once that attempt it made it "turns off" for lack of better wording.
That makes sense, both from a reading and a balance perspective.
The Boon Companion feat is quite clear in that it only provides a bonus if your effective druid level is less than your character level. If you are receiving a boost to your effective druid level from another source (ie, Aasimar or Elf FCB for Oracles applied to the Animal Companion granting Revelation), then Boon Companion will give you no benefit as long as your effective druid level is higher than your character level.
This does mean Boon Companion would be ineffective in the long-term, although in the short-term it can help make your animal companion more effective. There's always retraining if you feel the animal companion would be too weak in the short term.
Since this is the Rules Questions forum and not a PFS forum, I should point out that only the first of John Compton's answers appears to be generally applicable to non-PFS games. The latter two are definitely PFS-specific house rules, so if you are not playing PFS, it is really up to your GM whether to use them or not.
Actually he spoke to a developer about the actual game rules so it is not just a PF ruling.
This isn’t actually a new rule. It’s just a clarification that I confirmed with the design team because it seemed that some folks were assuming otherwise.
@ Calth:
In any event boon companion is a specific rule so even if "applying abilities in the most favorable order" was a general rule then boon companion would trump it. Specific trumps general.|
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Except, having an effective Druid level of 15, when your character level is only 12, means that the limiting text of Boon Companion stops working at 12.
People try to use the mathematical approach of order of operations, but that method is not contained within the rules for Pathfinder. In this case, we are given a limit, and must abide by that limit.
And it goes the same for the Magical Knack trait, as well.
I want you to point out the specific rules violation in the following example:
[\quote]
The rules violation is trying to use boon companion to bypass the set character level limit which boon companion says is not allowed. It is written directly into the feat.
<Snip>
Also I think Boon Companion would only be applied after Favored Class Bonus, so once the FCB causes you to reach effectively your character level Boon Companion would provide no benefit.
I am inclined to agree with this position. You pick FCBs when you take levels in a class, which is before you take feats. Surely, for those arguing an order of operations, that would suggest only one way of calculating EDL? i.e.(DL+FCB)+Boon Companion
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I am inclined to agree with this position. You pick FCBs when you take levels in a class, which is before you take feats. Surely, for those arguing an order of operations, that would suggest only one way of calculating EDL? i.e.(DL+FCB)+Boon Companion<Snip>
Also I think Boon Companion would only be applied after Favored Class Bonus, so once the FCB causes you to reach effectively your character level Boon Companion would provide no benefit.
Yeah, I am going to agree here. The order in which abilities are applied is spelled out in the PHB. Feats are added last so that you can use class features such as BAB to qualify for them.
Since this is the Rules Questions forum and not a PFS forum, I should point out that only the first of John Compton's answers appears to be generally applicable to non-PFS games. The latter two are definitely PFS-specific house rules, so if you are not playing PFS, it is really up to your GM whether to use them or not.
Actually he spoke to a developer about the actual game rules so it is not just a PF ruling.
This isn’t actually a new rule. It’s just a clarification that I confirmed with the design team because it seemed that some folks were assuming otherwise.
Yes, that quote is part of the first answer. It is the second and third answers that appear to be house rules for PFS.
Since this is the Rules Questions forum and not a PFS forum, I should point out that only the first of John Compton's answers appears to be generally applicable to non-PFS games. The latter two are definitely PFS-specific house rules, so if you are not playing PFS, it is really up to your GM whether to use them or not.
Actually he spoke to a developer about the actual game rules so it is not just a PF ruling.
This isn’t actually a new rule. It’s just a clarification that I confirmed with the design team because it seemed that some folks were assuming otherwise.Yes, that quote is part of the first answer. It is the second and third answers that appear to be house rules for PFS.
Also, obligatory reminder that it's not an "official" ruling until it's in the FAQ/Errata.
Yeah, I am going to agree here. The order in which abilities are applied is spelled out in the PHB. Feats are added last so that you can use class features such as BAB to qualify for them.I am inclined to agree with this position. You pick FCBs when you take levels in a class, which is before you take feats. Surely, for those arguing an order of operations, that would suggest only one way of calculating EDL? i.e.(DL+FCB)+Boon Companion<Snip>
Also I think Boon Companion would only be applied after Favored Class Bonus, so once the FCB causes you to reach effectively your character level Boon Companion would provide no benefit.
There is no ordwr of operations
My last word on this....
Fair enough. However since the feat is not in a hardback it may never be FAQ'd. Since magical knack has similar wording would you accept that as a precedent for Boon Companion once it is FAQ'd?
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There is no ordwr of operationsYeah, I am going to agree here. The order in which abilities are applied is spelled out in the PHB. Feats are added last so that you can use class features such as BAB to qualify for them.I am inclined to agree with this position. You pick FCBs when you take levels in a class, which is before you take feats. Surely, for those arguing an order of operations, that would suggest only one way of calculating EDL? i.e.(DL+FCB)+Boon Companion<Snip>
Also I think Boon Companion would only be applied after Favored Class Bonus, so once the FCB causes you to reach effectively your character level Boon Companion would provide no benefit.
Yeah, upon reviewing the statement in the PHB is not as broad as it was in 3.5 but on pg 30 "When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure
to take the following steps in order. First, select your newclass level. You must be able to qualify for this level before
any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply
any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third,
integrate all of the level’s class abilities and then roll for
additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats."
Finally, the feat itself seems to never raise you above your actual class level "The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were 4 levels higher, to a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar that has received this benefit, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature."
Anyway, I do have my answer for PFS at Gencon and beyond due to the Dev statement. I do hope that when they post the FAQ that this is made crystal clear. For our home campaign, we have already ruled that they do not stack.
Yeah, I would definitely agree that magical knack would set a precedent, since it is a similar effect with the same wording. I just think there needs to be a ruling on one of these types of effects just so it becomes clear.Fair enough. However since the feat is not in a hardback it may never be FAQ'd. Since magical knack has similar wording would you accept that as a precedent for Boon Companion once it is FAQ'd?
My last word on this....
Yeah, they could easily just include a line about how "For Magical Knack and any similar effects..." in the FAQ to make it clear it would apply to Boon Companion.