I'm pretty new to pathfinder so forgive me i've i'm asking a dumb question.
If i had a white haired witch character with some levels of rogue could i grapple someone with the witchs hair, pin them and then stab them with the rogues sneak attack? I'm assuming this would take 3 rounds?
Is there any way to make this work?
Well, the witch's hair is a natural attack first of all. SO, that means that if you use it AS A NATURAL ATTACK, that's the only attack you get. However, you may choose to use it as a normal attack, but then you are held to the rules of normal attacks which is one attack per limb (barring feats like Improved Two-Weapon fighting). SO, this is what we will do.
So, lets say you are a level 10 witch and a level 5 rogue. So, this makes your base attack bonus +12/+7/+2
So, first your use your hair to grapple your opponent (again, choosing to follow BAB iterative attacks instead of normal natural weapon rules). Assuming you made your combat maneuver check (which is a free action, due to witch hair having "grab") they are now grappled you are not. Which means you can now sneak attack them with your other two attacks (due to a grappled person being denied their dex bonus) in the same round!
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So much confusion and incorrect information here.
First, to answer your original you CAN pin the target with your hair but you won't be able to sneak attack them. Pinned is just a grappled condition so you would still need to use your standard action each round to maintain the grapple. This will prevent you from taking the attack action to sneak attack the target.
Now if you are asking if you can get sneak attack damage off of the Constrict power of the WHW that's a different question.
Second, the rules of sneak attack don't care whether the target is pinned or grappled, it only cares if the target is flanked or denied their dex bonus. As long as those either of those conditions are met you can get your sneak attack off.
Finally, please ignore the incorrect information on natural attacks and grappling provided by absolutegrndzer0, it's all wrong.
Natural attacks and iterative attacks interact poorly and with the grab rules for the WHW makes it even more complicated. Trying to use your hair and iteratives together would go like this.
A). Declare full attack with hair and iterative strikes.
B). Natural attack with hair at Bab+strength bonus -5 to hit (penalty for mixing natural and iterative attacks, applies ONLY to nat attacks).
If you hit the target you deal 1D3 + half your int mod in damage and make a free action combat maneuver check (also at -5) to grapple the target. If this succeeds the target gains the grappled condition.
C. You now get to make your iterative attacks against the targets AC -2 (grappled applies a -4 to dex which equals a -2 to AC). You do NOT get your sneak attack since the target is not denied his Dex bonus they only have a penalty to it.
End your turn.
D). Target gets to act and since he's not tied up he can either try to break/reverse the grapple, cast a spell/power or full attack you with a 1 handed weapon (he can't use a 2-hander since the grappled condition denies that option). end turn
E. Your turn, you now try to maintain the grapple (a standard action) and if the target didn't break it last round you get a +5 on your attempt to grapple. You also are no longer taking the -5 penalty to attack rolls since you are no longer mixing nat and iterative attacks.
Since the grapple maintain is a standard action you don't get any other standard actions this round (like attacking) but you can choose to pin the target.
F. Jumping ahead to after you've pinned the target you still need to maintain the grapple so you still can't get your sneak attack from your iterative attacks (you don't have the actions left to actually attack with them).
I'd like to note that acting to maintain the grapple is likely a poor choice for the witch.
This is because if you do another full attack, a hit with the hair allows grappling the target as a free action.
So go for starting a new grapple, you're trading the +5 on the check for getting the possible damage of the hair attack and all other attack rolls for the round, and if you hit with the hair, you have a good chance of them being grappled (again) for all of the other attacks.
The only time I'd try to maintain a grapple, using Mathwei ap Niall's interpretations, is if I was trying to pin the target for live capture.
Is it simply a matter that hair and swords don't mix ;)
I have a player in my game that is a Changeling White Haired Witch. Her claw attacks do compliment the hair attacks quite well.
In fact, if I'm interpreting the natural attack rules correctly, all three attacks are made without penalty. Since they are all 'Primary' natural attacks.
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H,mmm interesting thanks for the reply's.
Mathwei: You mention " if you can get sneak attack damage off of the Constrict power of the WHW"
What are your thoughts on that?
If you had improved feint how would that work (assuming some rogue/witch mix) with regard to the constrict ability and sneak attack (if at all)
Is it simply a matter that hair and swords don't mix ;)
I refuse to open that can of worms with constrict and sneak attack. That way leads to madness and faq requests.
As for improved feint you still run into the same problem. I Feint costs you a move action preventing you from full attacking so you'd still be unable to get all your sneak attacks off that round. You'd get 1 SA but eh..
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Ok, two more questions and I will leave off the whole witch-hair thing.
If I had a Kensai/White haired witch combination could I give the hair the Dancing weapon property via the magus's arcane pool?
and
The witch's hair can grow out to 20ft at higher levels. If the witch had combat reflex's could she make attacks of opportunity anywhere within her extended reach? Also, could she use the trip ability if the attack succeeds?
Trip (Ex): At 4th level, a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to trip the creature as a swift action*.
Technically yes and yes.
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So we thought about this.
You can give your hair dancing, but it would be supremely pointless.
Dancing allows the weapon to act on it's own once you release it. But since there is really no mechanism for a white haired witch to release her hair*, it just sits there and doesn't dance.
*We thought about cutting it free, but it says that it can't be sundered.
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Um.. greater grapple? That lets maintenance be a move action, leaving a standard action to stab with a dagger or shortsword or other weapon of choice (including 2-handed weapons)
So:
Turn 1) Attack with hair. Grapple, giving target (but not yourself) grappled condition. If opponent is not adjacent to you, grappling them pulls them adjacent.
Opponent's Turn 1) Attacks you. Or tries to escape with escape artist/CMB vs your CMD. Lets assume they fail.
Turn 2) Move action (thanks to greater grapple) to maintain the grapple. The maintenance check is made at +5 since they did not escape. If you succeed on maintaining the grapple you can deal damage (via constrict) while Pinning the opponent (you do not do your normal hair damage, just the constrict damage here... if you weren't pinning you would have done 2x your normal damage essentially). Pinning denies dexterity, so you can use your standard action to attack with the weapon you have in hand. This attack would get sneak attack damage added to it.
The real question here is if you get a -5 (basically nulling the +5 you get) at Turn 2 to maintain the grapple since you're using a weapon and a natural attack in the same turn. My gut says 'no' because I think that only applies to full attacks, but I don't have time to research those rules at the moment, so I could be wrong there.
Don't forget you are playing a witch and Greater Grapple has a Bab +6 requirement. That means you can't do this until 13th level (11th if you only do the 2 level dip and the rest rogue) and since you are a poor BAB class your CMB is going to be low and your AC/HP's even lower.
Until you actually Pin the target they will be tearing you apart with their full attacks (or easily breaking your grapple since you only use your Int bonus as Str when making the initiate/maintain action. When they try to break your grapple it goes against your normal CMD (which is going to be a much easier check).
And Finally, ANY time you use a natural attack at the same time you use an iterative attack your hair becomes a secondary attack with all the penalties associated with it.
Good luck.
It's a nice idea but the best use of WHW is the Hexcrafter for all kinds of awesomeness! I'm playing one right now and am having a blast. It's a variant of the defiler build highlighted in a certain guide...!
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Are you using an iterative attack when you take a standard attack action? The maintain is an entirely separate move action, not part of a full attack action with the weapon?
Also, they only get full attacks against you if they have a weapon sized for use in a grapple.
Finally, while I agree that the circumstances are less than ideal, if the OP wants to do it... there's a way at least. Perhaps it'd be better to use just as a response to triggered AoOs. Then the witch would Grab on the opponent's turn and maintain/attack on their turn. If the opponent had already used their standard action, they couldn't attempt an escape or counter attack.
Doesn't matter if it's a separate action any time you use a natural attack in the same round as a manufactured weapon it becomes a secondary attack with all those penalties.
Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
Also the only restriction on weapons while grappling is it can't require 2 hands to use. ANY 1 handed weapon can be used to full attack while grappling and there's nothing preventing a target from dropping their 2hder and pulling a 1hder out and full attacking with that.
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Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.I'm not entirely sure of the context of the quote you gave, but based on what I bolded, I think that perhaps you don't get the -5. The move action to maintain the grapple and the standard action attack with the weapon are not part of the same attack or full-attack action.
This is more comparable to attacking with a weapon on your turn and then taking an AoO with the natural attack. The -5, it would seem, is not maintained.
This actually makes some sense too... If whether or not you made the weapon attack (or made a second maintaining-grapple attempt) depended on the success of the initial move-action maintain, how would you know ahead of time whether or not to take the -5?
Nope, you are looking for loopholes that the devs hae already closed. Here's a Dev posting on exactly how this works focused on the hair power:
SKR explaining Natural attacks
Now since all combat maneuvers are treated as an attack roll, any round (which includes your AoO's as well) that you use any weapon other then your natural attack all natural attacks becom secondary and suffer those penalties.The DEV's have been very specific on this kind of tactic.