acrobatics to jump ... confusion at my table


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3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

given the following example ...

GGGG---GG where G is the ground and - is empty
123456789

assuming a running start

1) is the DC based on the gap jumped over [5,6,7] (DC15) or the distance to the next Box of ground [5,6,7,8] (DC20)?

2) when determining movement, does the jumped distance count against a characters total movement? moving from 1to9 equal 40' movement?

3) does landing at the end of a long jump end your move action or can you continue provided you have movement available?

4) using acrobatics happens during a move action so if a double move is required to jump a distance, does it need 2 checks?


1)

CRB wrote:
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical).

2) Yes.

3) You can move to the end of your movement unless you fail to make the DC in which case you fall prone.

4) Why would it?


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

1. Think of it this way, if you have the running start, the distance you can jump = the acrobatic check made. In this case there are 3 spaces to be jumped - at 5' per space - that's 15 feet. The DC is 15 and the jump check needs to be 15 or higher to succeed.

2. Yes, jumping should count against your movement - you are moving it, after all

3. Landing doesn't end your move action if you still have movement left to spend for it

4. A jump check is a single check. If you have a character with a 30 ft move who takes the 10 ft running start and gets a high enough jump check to clear a 25 ft chasm - he's into his second move action but he doesn't need to make a second jump check... unless he jumps again in that second move action (say, to cross another 10 ft gap).


1)DC is the gap you jumped
2)Yes
3)You can continue if you have move left.
4)There's been some debate lately, but I read it as you make one check and that's how far your jump takes you. If you have further movement left, you could jump again.


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It doesn’t necessarily have to be how far the jump takes you, rolling 25 on a dc15 jump doesn't actually mean you jumped 25 ft, just the 15ft you needed.

Otherwise imagine the fight when the DM places another pit after the first; you roll high enough to not only clear the first pit, but to land plumb in the middle of the next one. Lol


Technically, the distance to be jumped in that instance is 16 feet.
Assuming you start on solid ground, and want to end on solid ground. =)

So DC 16!

To clear a 15 foot hole, you need to jump 15+1 feet.

Though usually easier just to go with 15 =)


FrozenLaughs wrote:

It doesn’t necessarily have to be how far the jump takes you, rolling 25 on a dc15 jump doesn't actually mean you jumped 25 ft, just the 15ft you needed.

Otherwise imagine the fight when the DM places another pit after the first; you roll high enough to not only clear the first pit, but to land plumb in the middle of the next one. Lol

Actually...

CRB wrote:
Finally, you can use the Acrobatics skill to make jumps or to soften a fall. The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical). These DCs double if you do not have at least 10 feet of space to get a running start. The only Acrobatics modifiers that apply are those concerning the surface you are jumping from. If you fail this check by 4 or less, you can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to grab hold of the other side after having missed the jump. If you fail by 5 or more, you fail to make the jump and fall (or land prone, in the case of a vertical jump). Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet. No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round. For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone). Halve this result for a standing long jump to determine where you land.


Simon Legrande wrote:
FrozenLaughs wrote:

It doesn’t necessarily have to be how far the jump takes you, rolling 25 on a dc15 jump doesn't actually mean you jumped 25 ft, just the 15ft you needed.

Otherwise imagine the fight when the DM places another pit after the first; you roll high enough to not only clear the first pit, but to land plumb in the middle of the next one. Lol

Actually...

CRB wrote:
Finally, you can use the Acrobatics skill to make jumps or to soften a fall. The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical). These DCs double if you do not have at least 10 feet of space to get a running start. The only Acrobatics modifiers that apply are those concerning the surface you are jumping from. If you fail this check by 4 or less, you can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to grab hold of the other side after having missed the jump. If you fail by 5 or more, you fail to make the jump and fall (or land prone, in the case of a vertical jump). Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet. No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round. For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone). Halve this result for a standing long jump to determine where you land.

So what happens if there is an obstacle such as a wall or creature preventing you from traveling the full distance your jump check indicates you should travel? Do you take damage or provoke AoOs? Do you fall prone?


I don't know about you, but if there was a wall on the other side of a pit I was trying to jump over I'd find another way around.

If there is a creature there then a bull rush check would be called for. If you fail the bull rush then you suffer whatever outcome your roll dictates.

If someone wanted to jump a pit and cling to the wall on the other side, then a climb check would be called for as long as the jump distance is enough to get to it. If you fail the climb check then I believe you fall prone at the bottom of the wall. If there is no room there, then you obviously fall in the pit.

Liberty's Edge

CRB wrote:
Finally, you can use the Acrobatics skill to make jumps or to soften a fall. The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical). These DCs double if you do not have at least 10 feet of space to get a running start. The only Acrobatics modifiers that apply are those concerning the surface you are jumping from. If you fail this check by 4 or less, you can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to grab hold of the other side after having missed the jump. If you fail by 5 or more, you fail to make the jump and fall (or land prone, in the case of a vertical jump). Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet. No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round. For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone). Halve this result for a standing long jump to determine where you land.

I never noticed that myself. It is actually pretty unrealistic that the rules do not allow for a more controlled running jump. In addition, I believe that this is the only place in the skills where succeeding well at a check can cause a negative effect.

For example, I have a Rogue in PFS who specializes in Acrobatics. His score is +22. By the rules, if he wants to jump a 5 foot gap while running, he automatically jumps at least 23 feet; a Take 10 would be 32 feet; and a really long jump would be 42 feet.

I can agree that controlling a running jump would be more difficult than controlling a standing jump, but the only way I see it being handled is to place a penalty on the check (-5?) and if the check is successful, the character is able to choose the distance the character actually jumps.


With that high of an acrobatics skill, why run? I would agree that you should be able to shorten a standing jump, a running jump isn't so easy. Take 10 on a standing jump gets you 16 feet. I would be tempted to just give a person with 11 or higher skill a free jump over a 5 foot pit without even forcing a roll to avoid over shooting.


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The lawyerism that reads that rule and decides that a character is incapable of jumping less then the distance rolled on a die is boggling to me. Seriously, do people actually play this way ... and still manage to enjoy themselves?

It's pretty simple really,

Quote:
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed

You don't miss a skill check because you exceed the DC. The distance calculation is used only ...

Quote:
if the check fails

or, presumably in the case where you're simply attempting to jump as far or high as possible, without a specific goal in mind.


Zalman wrote:

The lawyerism that reads that rule and decides that a character is incapable of jumping less then the distance rolled on a die is boggling to me. Seriously, do people actually play this way ... and still manage to enjoy themselves?

It's pretty simple really,

Quote:
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed

You don't miss a skill check because you exceed the DC. The distance calculation is used only ...

Quote:
if the check fails
or, presumably in the case where you're simply attempting to jump as far or high as possible, without a specific goal in mind.

This is why GMs exist. In cases where following the rules as they are written is a must, you do what the rules say you do. In other cases a GM is free to interpret them how he/she thinks is best. This being the rules forum, the former needs to be mentioned.


Well, there's a difference between "interpreting" a rule, and reading it as written in context. RAW doesn't mean we should evaluate each sentence in isolation, does it?

Whatever one's thoughts are on that question, I am still amazed that anyone would actually enjoy playing that way. For me the goal of the game is to experience the joys of heroism in a fantasy setting. It feels to me like the only thing RAW (as it's used in this forum) enables is the goal of "beating Pathfinder". Can someone argue their way into pure situational silliness by purposefully bending the intent of RPG rules? Apparently so. Is it fun? Not for me.

And this thread is a perfect example. The idea that a character actually disadvantages themselves by taking more ranks in a skill is clearly counter to the intent of the rule. To break the game on purpose because "its RAW" ... to each their own I guess.


Zalman wrote:
Well, there's a difference between "interpreting" a rule, and reading it as written in context. RAW doesn't mean we should evaluate each sentence in isolation, does it?

The paragraph starts by saying the DC is the distance traveled for a running jump and is doubled for a standing jump. It closes by saying you travel the distance for a running jump and half that for a standing jump.

Say you have a +10 Acrobatics and roll 20 trying to cross a 15 ft pit:

Running jump - Acrobatics 30 moves you 30 feet against a DC 15, you fly way over
Standing jump - Acrobatics 30 moves you 15 feet against a DC 30, you fall right in the middle

I personally don't see the point of doubling the DC and halving the distance traveled for a standing jump. That being said, the point of that sentence isn't out of context in the least. I probably would have said you can travel the distance indicated by your check, but I didn't write the rules.

Zalman wrote:

Whatever one's thoughts are on that question, I am still amazed that anyone would actually enjoy playing that way. For me the goal of the game is to experience the joys of heroism in a fantasy setting. It feels to me like the only thing RAW (as it's used in this forum) enables is the goal of "beating Pathfinder". Can someone argue their way into pure situational silliness by purposefully bending the intent of RPG rules? Apparently so. Is it fun? Not for me.

And this thread is a perfect example. The idea that a character actually disadvantages themselves by taking more ranks in a skill is clearly counter to the intent of the rule. To break the game on purpose because "its RAW" ... to each their own I guess.

I hear ya. I can't really wrap my head around it either, but as long as those people don't disrupt my game then more power to them. My group ignores ~60% of the rules when we play and we manage to have plenty of fun. Also, things like this are why I don't even seek out PFS.

Zalman wrote:
You don't miss a skill check because you exceed the DC. The distance calculation is used only ...

Right, you don't fail the skill check. You go way farther than the distance you need to travel to not fail. I wouldn't say jumping farther than you needed to is failing.


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Simon Legrande wrote:

Zalman wrote:

You don't miss a skill check because you exceed the DC. The distance calculation is used only ...
Right, you don't fail the skill check. You go way farther than the distance you need to travel to not fail. I wouldn't say jumping farther than you needed to is failing.

By that logic...

I'm standing on a 15ft platform. Ahead of me is an alternating series of 15ft chasms and 15ft platforms.

I have the room to run. My DC to make the jump is only 15. I have +15 Acrobatics skill from my gear and intense training as a Rogue. I can only fail this jump on a natural 1. I roll a 19, for a total of 34.

Despite my incredible training, I make such an incredible jump that I surprise even myself; I clear not only the chasm ahead of me, but the next platform as well, and fall to my death. (Into the first 5ft square of the second chasm.)

I'm supposed to believe that at that level of skill, my character can't land where he wants to land? I'm supposed to cross my fingers and hope that I don't roll 16+ and accidentally overshoot my target? Pray I don't roll a natural 20 and suddenly take flight, unable to control myself like a pubescent X-man learning to fly?


So... say you have a 15' gap to jump over... during an earthquake for +10 to the DC for a DC25 jump check. You get a 20 on the check. You failed the check so you fall prone... on the other side of the gap, 20' away.


Ok, maybe I'm missing something on the math, but taking the OP above, if I'm leaping from 4 while trying to cross 5, 6, 7 in order to reach 8, shouldn't the DC be 20? I'm trying to move myself 4 squares. If the distance moved is equal to my result and I roll a 15, that puts me at 7...which has nothing beneath me, meaning I fall. I need to roll a 20 in order to move 20 so that I'm landing on something solid.

What am I missing?


FrozenLaughs wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:

Zalman wrote:

You don't miss a skill check because you exceed the DC. The distance calculation is used only ...
Right, you don't fail the skill check. You go way farther than the distance you need to travel to not fail. I wouldn't say jumping farther than you needed to is failing.

By that logic...

I'm standing on a 15ft platform. Ahead of me is an alternating series of 15ft chasms and 15ft platforms.

I have the room to run. My DC to make the jump is only 15. I have +15 Acrobatics skill from my gear and intense training as a Rogue. I can only fail this jump on a natural 1. I roll a 19, for a total of 34.

Despite my incredible training, I make such an incredible jump that I surprise even myself; I clear not only the chasm ahead of me, but the next platform as well, and fall to my death. (Into the first 5ft square of the second chasm.)

I'm supposed to believe that at that level of skill, my character can't land where he wants to land? I'm supposed to cross my fingers and hope that I don't roll 16+ and accidentally overshoot my target? Pray I don't roll a natural 20 and suddenly take flight, unable to control myself like a pubescent X-man learning to fly?

As I said, I would have said you can jump the distance indicated by your check. The rules creators chose not to do that. Don't blame me for the rules not being what you want. In my home games I'd have it work the way I think it should work. In a PFS game, it will work the way the rules say it works.

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

There are typos and unintended wordings in the rules from time to time. It happens. Some common sense has to be used also when conferring intent of the rules.

I find it rather silly to think someone can't control how far they jump. I know roughly (within a few feet) how far I can jump with a running start and I can easily choose not to go that full distance by not running as fast or by jumping higher, not farther. It's basic physics.

Stop parsing the rules verbage and use some common sense.


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Imagine the poor monk. At 5th level, with 5 ranks in acrobatics, +3 class skill, +4 from increased speed, +5 from High Jump, and let's say a +3 from Dex. He cannot jump less than twenty feet?


Elbedor wrote:

Ok, maybe I'm missing something on the math, but taking the OP above, if I'm leaping from 4 while trying to cross 5, 6, 7 in order to reach 8, shouldn't the DC be 20? I'm trying to move myself 4 squares. If the distance moved is equal to my result and I roll a 15, that puts me at 7...which has nothing beneath me, meaning I fall. I need to roll a 20 in order to move 20 so that I'm landing on something solid.

What am I missing?

It isn't the distance to be moved but the size of the gap to be crossed. The gap is 3 squares (15') so the DC is 15. Or, to put it another way, it's a DC 0 to cross a gap 0 feet wide, not a DC 5 because you, literally, cannot fail.


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I don't get why you are so much against the people saying that by RAW you cannot jump less than your acrobatics check indicate. It is there for everyone to see. The rules are actually clear.
When I say something is RAW it doesn't automatically mean that I support it. All it means is that I've read the text and come to the conclusion of how it works by RAW. Would I sometimes like RAW to be changed from what it is? Of course. This is one such example. But I don't let it bother me because I never play pathfinder by RAW. I always play by RAI. And in RAI you are meant to try and understand how the author of the rules wanted it to work. In this case, there is no doubt in my mind that the author meant that you CAN jump up to your check result, but that you don't have to if you don't want to.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kazaan wrote:
Elbedor wrote:

Ok, maybe I'm missing something on the math, but taking the OP above, if I'm leaping from 4 while trying to cross 5, 6, 7 in order to reach 8, shouldn't the DC be 20? I'm trying to move myself 4 squares. If the distance moved is equal to my result and I roll a 15, that puts me at 7...which has nothing beneath me, meaning I fall. I need to roll a 20 in order to move 20 so that I'm landing on something solid.

What am I missing?

It isn't the distance to be moved but the size of the gap to be crossed. The gap is 3 squares (15') so the DC is 15. Or, to put it another way, it's a DC 0 to cross a gap 0 feet wide, not a DC 5 because you, literally, cannot fail.

I have five characters capable of failing a DC 0 check.

DC 0 does not mean unfailable. If it has a DC at all, it can be failed.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, can you make an Acrobatics check, to lessen the previous Acrobatics check?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, can you make an Acrobatics check, to lessen the previous Acrobatics check?

Only if you're a Scout.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Simon Legrande wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, can you make an Acrobatics check, to lessen the previous Acrobatics check?
Only if you're a Scout.

Wait, there is an ability that covers this?

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Imagine the poor monk. At 5th level, with 5 ranks in acrobatics, +3 class skill, +4 from increased speed, +5 from High Jump, and let's say a +3 from Dex. He cannot jump less than twenty feet?

Exactly my point!

Said monk has +20 acrobatics and needs to jump over a 5-foot gap from one platform to another. According to some of the posters here it is literally impossible for him to just make a 5-foot jump. So he is sooooo good at acrobatics yet he can't control himself?

THAT'S UTTERLY PREPOSTEROUS!!


anthonydido wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Imagine the poor monk. At 5th level, with 5 ranks in acrobatics, +3 class skill, +4 from increased speed, +5 from High Jump, and let's say a +3 from Dex. He cannot jump less than twenty feet?

Exactly my point!

Said monk has +20 acrobatics and needs to jump over a 5-foot gap from one platform to another. According to some of the posters here it is literally impossible for him to just make a 5-foot jump. So he is sooooo good at acrobatics yet he can't control himself?

THAT'S UTTERLY PREPOSTEROUS!!

THEN DON'T USE THE RULE! How hard is that? Make it say whatever you want it to say. The Pathfinder Police aren't going to show up at your door and force you to stop.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, can you make an Acrobatics check, to lessen the previous Acrobatics check?
Only if you're a Scout.
Wait, there is an ability that covers this?

Sorry, Team Fortress 2 reference. The Scout is the only class that can double jump and reliably change direction in midair.


Quote:
For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone)

Only if the check fails does the "distance traveled" represent where you "actually land". Even RAW. Unless of course you'd like to argue that success implies that you don't actually ever land, because, you know, RAW it only says you land if you miss the check ...

(Oh wait, it doesn't say "only if", just "if" so the opposite is not implied, and the last sentence is meaningless ... because it could mean "if this and also if not this" ... but wait, RAW means the last sentence must be taken into account, therefore it can't be meaningless ... but wait ...)

Words don't mean arbitrary things just because the rule doesn't say that they don't. It seems to me that some people's idea of "As Written" is itself a wild interpretation.


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Simon Legrande wrote:
anthonydido wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Imagine the poor monk. At 5th level, with 5 ranks in acrobatics, +3 class skill, +4 from increased speed, +5 from High Jump, and let's say a +3 from Dex. He cannot jump less than twenty feet?

Exactly my point!

Said monk has +20 acrobatics and needs to jump over a 5-foot gap from one platform to another. According to some of the posters here it is literally impossible for him to just make a 5-foot jump. So he is sooooo good at acrobatics yet he can't control himself?

THAT'S UTTERLY PREPOSTEROUS!!

THEN DON'T USE THE RULE! How hard is that? Make it say whatever you want it to say. The Pathfinder Police aren't going to show up at your door and force you to stop.

*knock knock*

"Who is it?"
"The Pathfinder Police, please open the door, Sir"
*frantic rushing around*
Whispered:
"Dude, hide the house rules!" "We don't have enough time..what about the custom minis?" "flush 'em!"


Zalman wrote:
Quote:
For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone)

Only if the check fails does the "distance traveled" represent where you "actually land". Even RAW. Unless of course you'd like to argue that success implies that you don't actually ever land, because, you know, RAW it only says you land if you miss the check ...

(Oh wait, it doesn't say "only if", just "if" so the opposite is not implied, and the last sentence is meaningless ... because it could mean "if this and also if not this" ... but wait, RAW means the last sentence must be taken into account, therefore it can't be meaningless ... but wait ...)

Words don't mean arbitrary things just because the rule doesn't say that they don't. It seems to me that some people's idea of "As Written" is itself a wild interpretation.

I think we all get it. You don't like the jump rules. You don't like people who play by RAW. Good for you. Please now inform the rest of us on what is the correct way to play. I fear I may have been doing it wrong.


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anthonydido wrote:

Said monk has +20 acrobatics and needs to jump over a 5-foot gap from one platform to another. According to some of the posters here it is literally impossible for him to just make a 5-foot jump. So he is sooooo good at acrobatics yet he can't control himself?

THAT'S UTTERLY PREPOSTEROUS!!

It gets better. Apparently "RAW" (as used by others here) means you not only overshoot your mark, but never land, so I guess your monk starts levitating after every successful running jump check. Not sure how he gets down ...


Blindmage wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
anthonydido wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Imagine the poor monk. At 5th level, with 5 ranks in acrobatics, +3 class skill, +4 from increased speed, +5 from High Jump, and let's say a +3 from Dex. He cannot jump less than twenty feet?

Exactly my point!

Said monk has +20 acrobatics and needs to jump over a 5-foot gap from one platform to another. According to some of the posters here it is literally impossible for him to just make a 5-foot jump. So he is sooooo good at acrobatics yet he can't control himself?

THAT'S UTTERLY PREPOSTEROUS!!

THEN DON'T USE THE RULE! How hard is that? Make it say whatever you want it to say. The Pathfinder Police aren't going to show up at your door and force you to stop.

*knock knock*

"Who is it?"
"The Pathfinder Police, please open the door, Sir"
*frantic rushing around*
Whispered:
"Dude, hide the house rules!" "We don't have enough time..what about the custom minis?" "flush 'em!"

You think they KNOCK?!?! There are no rules for knocking on a door. There are rules for breaking down doors though.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Wait, I succeed on my Acrobatics to jump, I never land?


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Simon Legrande wrote:
I think we all get it. You don't like the jump rules. You don't like people who play by RAW. Good for you. Please now inform the rest of us on what is the correct way to play. I fear I may have been doing it wrong.

Simon, I don't mean anything personal towards you or anyone else who plays by RAW or who has a different interpretation of the rules than I do. My apologies if I sounded intolerant due to my surprise, it was not intentional.

My point is not that RAW is bad, rather it seems to me that your reading of the rules is not in fact RAW, but itself a creative interpretation. You are of course entitled to your interpretation and to play any way you choose, whether it is called "RAW" or not.


Zalman wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
I think we all get it. You don't like the jump rules. You don't like people who play by RAW. Good for you. Please now inform the rest of us on what is the correct way to play. I fear I may have been doing it wrong.

Simon, I don't mean anything personal towards you or anyone else who plays by RAW or who has a different interpretation of the rules than I do. My apologies if I sounded intolerant due to my surprise, it was not intentional.

My point is not that RAW is bad, rather it seems to me that your reading of the rules is not in fact RAW, but itself a creative interpretation. You are of course entitled to your interpretation and to play any way you choose, whether it is called "RAW" or not.

I agree with you, RAW is bad. As I said above, the group I play with disregards at least 60% of the rules that exist. We do that because we agree that there are many rules that just plain don't make sense.

That being said, it is RAW. For people playing PFS that is a big deal and since this is the Rules forum it is the answer. I honestly don't know how much room for interpretation PFS GMs have.


Simon Legrande wrote:
Blindmage wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
anthonydido wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Imagine the poor monk. At 5th level, with 5 ranks in acrobatics, +3 class skill, +4 from increased speed, +5 from High Jump, and let's say a +3 from Dex. He cannot jump less than twenty feet?

Exactly my point!

Said monk has +20 acrobatics and needs to jump over a 5-foot gap from one platform to another. According to some of the posters here it is literally impossible for him to just make a 5-foot jump. So he is sooooo good at acrobatics yet he can't control himself?

THAT'S UTTERLY PREPOSTEROUS!!

THEN DON'T USE THE RULE! How hard is that? Make it say whatever you want it to say. The Pathfinder Police aren't going to show up at your door and force you to stop.

*knock knock*

"Who is it?"
"The Pathfinder Police, please open the door, Sir"
*frantic rushing around*
Whispered:
"Dude, hide the house rules!" "We don't have enough time..what about the custom minis?" "flush 'em!"
You think they KNOCK?!?! There are no rules for knocking on a door. There are rules for breaking down doors though.

<

You think that the Paizo RAW police don't have access to disintegrate? If the paizo RAW police are after you then you are screwed! The only defense is to chant "houserule" over and over again untill they leave in anger.


Kazaan wrote:
Elbedor wrote:

Ok, maybe I'm missing something on the math, but taking the OP above, if I'm leaping from 4 while trying to cross 5, 6, 7 in order to reach 8, shouldn't the DC be 20? I'm trying to move myself 4 squares. If the distance moved is equal to my result and I roll a 15, that puts me at 7...which has nothing beneath me, meaning I fall. I need to roll a 20 in order to move 20 so that I'm landing on something solid.

What am I missing?

It isn't the distance to be moved but the size of the gap to be crossed. The gap is 3 squares (15') so the DC is 15. Or, to put it another way, it's a DC 0 to cross a gap 0 feet wide, not a DC 5 because you, literally, cannot fail.

Bolded the important part. Per the rules I move as far as the results of my roll. So if the gap is 15ft and therefore the DC is 15 and I leap from Square 4, succeeding on the check with a 15 puts me at Square 7.

So I fall.

Or am I somehow leaping from Square 5 while standing on air?


Elbedor wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
Elbedor wrote:

Ok, maybe I'm missing something on the math, but taking the OP above, if I'm leaping from 4 while trying to cross 5, 6, 7 in order to reach 8, shouldn't the DC be 20? I'm trying to move myself 4 squares. If the distance moved is equal to my result and I roll a 15, that puts me at 7...which has nothing beneath me, meaning I fall. I need to roll a 20 in order to move 20 so that I'm landing on something solid.

What am I missing?

It isn't the distance to be moved but the size of the gap to be crossed. The gap is 3 squares (15') so the DC is 15. Or, to put it another way, it's a DC 0 to cross a gap 0 feet wide, not a DC 5 because you, literally, cannot fail.

Bolded the important part. Per the rules I move as far as the results of my roll. So if the gap is 15ft and therefore the DC is 15 and I leap from Square 4, succeeding on the check with a 15 puts me at Square 7.

So I fall.

Or am I somehow leaping from Square 5 while standing on air?

You don't jump from the middle of 4 to the middle of 8, you jump from the edge to the edge.


That may be true, but by the rules of movement going from Square 4 to Square 8 counts as 20 feet or 4 squares even if it's really only 16 ft. A Halfling cannot move from 4 to 8 in a single move by claiming that he started at the edge of 4 and is just moving 1 extra foot into the edge of 8.

Plus if we assume exactly 15ft are covered from a roll result of 15, leaping from the far edge of 4 takes me to the far edge of 7 which still results in me falling.

According to RAW "The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed..." This in no way implies only the gap. It's measuring the distance between where your feet leave the ground and where they land. Leaping from 4 to 8 is a 20 ft jump. You could reduce that to 16 with GM permission, but a 15 puts you in Square 7 and falling down the gap unless you have a means to somehow leap from Square 5.


Distance crossed =/= distance moved

Consider the following: you have 3 pills and are told to take one every half hour. You start at 1:00 PM. How many hours until you run out of pills? The first impulse is to simply multiply 3x 30min = 1 hour, 30 minutes, but that's wrong. You'd actually finish them in one hour, taking the first at 1:00, the second at 1:30, and the final one at 2:00; BAM, you're out of pills. So starting in Square 4, crossing squares 5, 6, and 7 (the gap), and landing in square 8 means you're crossing 15 feet and, thus, it is a DC15 check because you spend 15' of movement to run across squares 2, 3, and 4 (presuming you start in square 1); then "leap" at the edge of square 4 to cross squares 5, 6, and 7; intending to land on square 8. you're not trying to jump from the edge of 4 to the far edge of 8, but the near edge of 8. This is why, if you miss the DC by 4 or less, you can make a reflex save to grab the ledge because you got as far as square 7 and are far enough inside that you can fudge the result with a reflex save. Mind you, it still takes 35' total movement to go from square 1 to square 8 so, for a medium character, this would cost you a double-move.


Your Pill example doesn't really apply to the OP. That is measuring Pill Taking from Point 0 in Time. The OP requires you to start your jump BEFORE the pit begins in Square 5.

Plus you are forgetting the rule of jumping.

Acrobatics wrote:
Running Jump: For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone). Halve this result for a standing long jump to determine where you land.

Getting a 15 on an Acrobatics check means I land 15 feet away from where I jumped. If I jump from Square 4, then by the rules I land 15 feet away which puts me in Square 7 any way you care to measure it. If I can only travel 15 feet, I cannot reach 8 from 4. Not if I'm running. Not if I'm flying. Not if I'm swimming, burrowing, or leaping. Not even if I'm teleporting.

If I want to safely cross the pit, I need to leap from Square 4 and land in Square 8. Doing so requires 20 feet of movement, which requires a result of 20 on the check. If I get a 16, I can attempt a Reflex save to grab the other side since per the rules I'm close enough to attempt that. If I fail, then I fall down to the bottom of Square 7. If I succeed, then I am in Square 7, but holding onto something in adjacent Square 8.

Distance crossed = Distance moved.


I don't think so. A five foot reach lets you attack creatures immediately next to you; a ten foot reach lets you attack creatures that are five feet away.

When Pathfinder talks about distance between two things, it uses their near sides. If you are in the air for 15', and there are three squares of pit to cross, you are in the air over all of them, and on the ground for the rest of your move.


Creatures adjacent to you are 5 ft away. Creatures 2 squares away are 10 feet away. That is how distance is measured.

PXT

P = Player
X = Space
T = Target

Target is 10 feet away from Player. You could hit him if you had a Reach weapon since reach weapons hit targets 10 feet away.

If we had PXXT, now you need a 15ft reach and throwing a dagger at him puts you into the 2nd range increment.

Now you could say there are 5 ft between your square and the target's square. That is true. But that is not how distance is measured. This is probably what trips up people when measuring jumping distance. A 15ft pit is 15ft of open air between the square you're jumping from and the square you're jumping to. But overall you must travel 20 feet in order to traverse the pit.


I'd need to see a citation for this, because I've consistently seen 3.x/PF rules interpreted with the understanding that base contact is Zero Feet Away, and so on. I mean, I could be confused, but pretty sure that's how I've seen it interpreted.


If you are standing next to a 15ft pit; then yes, squares 1,2 and 3 are the pit. A standing jump to square 4 would be DC 30 (twice the distance for no running start) and you would move a total of 20 ft.

Liberty's Edge

Simon Legrande wrote:
I think we all get it. You don't like the jump rules. You don't like people who play by RAW. Good for you. Please now inform the rest of us on what is the correct way to play. I fear I may have been doing it wrong.

I play by "RAW" and a monk with a +20 to Acrobatics wouldn't actually jump 20 feet to get across a 5-foot gap.


HangarFlying wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
I think we all get it. You don't like the jump rules. You don't like people who play by RAW. Good for you. Please now inform the rest of us on what is the correct way to play. I fear I may have been doing it wrong.
I play by "RAW" and a monk with a +20 to Acrobatics wouldn't actually jump 20 feet to get across a 5-foot gap.

And?

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