Hi all! I'm relatively new to PFS, but I was looking at one of the builds/concepts that was effective in our recent Wrath of the Righteous run as something I might be able to 'port over. The twins in question were Aasimar Dawnflower Dervishes who turned out to be descendants of Sarenrae herself, and after seeing them in action in a home game, I was wondering if they would be equally effective in PFS. I realize I might be getting into the game a hair too late to make the exact build a reality since Aasimar are walking out the door, but the build could be almost or equally as effective as a Human.
The thought process was to go Dawnflower Dervish and fight side-by-side, utilizing Battle Dance and Teamwork feats to maximize one another's effectiveness. This isn't the exact build, for many reasons, but its a reasonable facsimile of what was run in the AP. Levels 5 and 6 are Lore Warden for the additional feats offered and because it fits both the feel of the characters and the PFS society.
Attributes:
STR - 13 (+1 @ 12th level)
DEX - 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 @ 4th & 8th level)
CON - 14
INT - 10
WIS - 10
CHA - 12 (+2 racial bonus)
Traits:
Maestro of the Society
Magical Knack
Feats:
1st - Dervish Dance
1st - Arcane Strike
3rd - Power Attack
5th - Broken Wing Gambit
5th - Paired Opportunists
6th - Combat Reflexes
6th - Combat Expertise
7th - Outflank
9th - Precise Strike
11th - Discordant Voice
For the first four levels they should be plenty effective on their own - after they gain their second bump to Inspire Courage (thanks to the FCB), they begin piling on Teamwork feats. Side-by-side, both using Broken Wing Gambit and both taking advantage of Paired Opportunists to get off two AoO's against anyone who attacks them, and later, layering Precise Strike and Discordant Voice to rev up their damage... from what I can tell, two concurrent instances of Discordant Voice should stack, for both they and their teammates.
Of course, that's not even getting into spells...
I would build these characters for I and a friend, intended for when we're both playing together at the same table, we'll have other characters for when we're not. Those of you whom have been involved in PFS for a while, what do you think?
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I'm a big fan of teamwork characters! This sounds like a lot of fun.
A couple of thoughts:
1) You have until August 14 to get one chronicle applied to an aasimar character; if you can do that, it's grandfathered in. So you might be able to do it as a aasimar.
2) Power Attack is not as effective with one-handed weapons, and with Dervish Dance, you can only use one hand on the scimitar. If there's another feat you were looking at, it might be a good idea to switch it out. Also, you might consider lowering your strength and use the points in CHA so you can get spells higher than 2nd level. (Assuming you only took 13 STR to get Power Attack; if you wanted the 13 STR for something else, never mind.) :-)
3) I'd actually recommend getting Precise Strike earlier. At lower levels, you'll fight more enemies who are susceptible to precision damage than at higher levels.
4) If you're going to stick with scimitar, you might consider the Weapon Master archetype instead of Lore Warden. (You already have all the knowledge skills from your bard levels, and you're not using Combat Expertise as a pre-requisite that I can see.) If you go three levels in Weapon Master, you can get Weapon Training (+1 attack and damage, untyped); you can then pick up Gloves of Dueling to boost that to +3 attack and damage.
5) Paired Opportunists doesn't usually work with Precise Strike or Outflank: one is adjacent, the other two are flanking. (If you pick up Gang Up, though, you might be able to pull it off, but that takes a 13 Int and another cooperating player. Might not be worth it.) You might check out Escape Route as an replacement for Paired Opportunists.
My husband and I ran teamwork characters with Outflank. Combined with Keen (or Improved Critical) to make the threat range 15-20, this turned out to be really effective.
I'm a big fan of teamwork characters! This sounds like a lot of fun.
A couple of thoughts:
1) You have until August 14 to get one chronicle applied to an aasimar character; if you can do that, it's grandfathered in. So you might be able to do it as a aasimar.2) Power Attack is not as effective with one-handed weapons, and with Dervish Dance, you can only use one hand on the scimitar. If there's another feat you were looking at, it might be a good idea to switch it out. Also, you might consider lowering your strength and use the points in CHA so you can get spells higher than 2nd level. (Assuming you only took 13 STR to get Power Attack; if you wanted the 13 STR for something else, never mind.) :-)
3) I'd actually recommend getting Precise Strike earlier. At lower levels, you'll fight more enemies who are susceptible to precision damage than at higher levels.
4) If you're going to stick with scimitar, you might consider the Weapon Master archetype instead of Lore Warden. (You already have all the knowledge skills from your bard levels, and you're not using Combat Expertise as a pre-requisite that I can see.) If you go three levels in Weapon Master, you can get Weapon Training (+1 attack and damage, untyped); you can then pick up Gloves of Dueling to boost that to +3 attack and damage.
5) Paired Opportunists doesn't usually work with Precise Strike or Outflank: one is adjacent, the other two are flanking. (If you pick up Gang Up, though, you might be able to pull it off, but that takes a 13 Int and another cooperating player. Might not be worth it.) You might check out Escape Route as an replacement for Paired Opportunists.
My husband and I ran teamwork characters with Outflank. Combined with Keen (or Improved Critical) to make the threat range 15-20, this turned out to be really effective.
Thanks for your response!
Power Attack is clearly less effective, not just as a one-handed character but also as a 3/4 BAB class - I just found that the attack bonuses seemed high enough to support its use, and +4 or +6 damage is still nothing to sneeze at.
I realize that not all of the Teamwork feats are complimentary, but I thought it might be good to have more than one option - feats that benefit us when we're flanking and feats that benefit us when we're adjacent; is that trying to do too much? In my opinion the strongest combo in this build is using Broken Wing Gambit and Paired Opportunists, since it will give us each an AoO whenever one of us is attacked, though it is dependent on us both hitting them first.
That's a good thought about Weaponmaster - I never tend to take gear into account when pre-planning my characters. Is that bonus worthwhile, in your opinion, for bumping both my next Inspire Courage and all my spells another level down the road?
Maybe something like this? Here I'm taking Weaponmaster at levels 5, 6, 7 & 12.
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1st - Dervish Dance
1st - Arcane Strike
3rd - Power Attack
5th - Paired Opportunists
5th - Broken Wing Gambit
6th - Combat Reflexes
7th - Lunge
9th - Weapon Focus: Scimitar
11th - Discordant Voice
12th - Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
Did we ever figure out if Discordant Voice stacked if more than one person is using it? If so I'd stick with the above, but if not, I might be more inclined to make those last two feats:
11th - Improved Critical
12th - Seize the Moment
Seize the Moment would really make those other Teamwork feats come together and taking Improved Critical probably means I can afford another enhancement on my weapon other than Keen... not that I'm likely to do a lot of post-12th level play.
instead of power attack consider the dex based version, pirahna strike. I believe it is still legal for use in PFS.
Nah, I'd need Weapon Finesse and it only applies to light weapons anyway...
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5) Paired Opportunists doesn't usually work with Precise Strike or Outflank: one is adjacent, the other two are flanking. (If you pick up Gang Up, though, you might be able to pull it off, but that takes a 13 Int and another cooperating player. Might not be worth it.) You might check out Escape Route as an replacement for Paired Opportunists.
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Due to the fact that you count as your own ally, you can use outflank with only two characters threatening the target. Personally, I feel that is clearly not RAI for gang up, but that is what the FAQ says.
instead of power attack consider the dex based version, pirahna strike. I believe it is still legal for use in PFS.
Doesn't work with a scimitar, unfortunately, so Dervish Dancers can't use it. :-(
The Swashbuckler from the Advanced Class has some tricks that could work with a scimitar, but you'll want to wait until the final version of the book comes out.
I would also consider dropping arcane strike, as there are quite a few really awesome bard spells that are immediate actions, and eventually starting your dervish dance will be a swift as well....
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Dervish dance requires both Weapon Finesse and 2 ranks in perform. You can't take it at level 1.
So to the response "nah I'd need weapon finesse" you already have it (though you're right in that it still won't work with a scimitar).
Dawnflower Dervishes gain Dervish Dance as a bonus feat at level 1 without needing the prerequisites.
Maybe something like this? Here I'm taking Weaponmaster at levels 5, 6, 7 & 12.
1st - Dervish Dance
1st - Arcane Strike
3rd - Power Attack
5th - Paired Opportunists
5th - Broken Wing Gambit
6th - Combat Reflexes
7th - Lunge
9th - Weapon Focus: Scimitar
11th - Discordant Voice
12th - Weapon Specialization: ScimitarDid we ever figure out if Discordant Voice stacked if more than one person is using it? If so I'd stick with the above, but if not, I might be more inclined to make those last two feats:
11th - Improved Critical
12th - Seize the MomentSeize the Moment would really make those other Teamwork feats come together and taking Improved Critical probably means I can afford another enhancement on my weapon other than Keen... not that I'm likely to do a lot of post-12th level play.
Looking at the wording on Discordant Voice, I don't think it would stack with itself. It says that it stacks with other energy damage the weapon does: I read that to mean that if your weapon normally does sonic damage, this would add to it.
I like Seize the Moment--that would work out better for you than Outflank, probably. (Our teamwork characters had rogue levels, so we were already all about the flanking, anyway.)
Another thing to check out is Oil of Bless Weapon: it lets you auto confirm a crit threat against evil foes, but this can't be used with Keen. With Improved Critical, though, auto-confirming crits is really handy.
I'm not a big fan of Lunge. I really, really want to like it, but it doesn't continue through to your AoOs, which makes it only half as useful, to me. You might want to look at using Enlarge Person to extend your reach and your flanking/adjacent squares. Enlarge isn't as good on a Dex-based character, though, and I think Enlarge Person doesn't work on an Aasimar, so it might not be the best option for you. (Although you could use it and switch to a great sword or earthbreaker: 15 str, 3d6, and 1.5x STR and Power Attack would make a nice backup option if your scimitar is not working for some reason, like DR bludgeoning or high hardness or something.)
If your main focus is a self-buffing melee character, I would consider front-loading the fighter levels, like 1-2 Bard, 3-7 Weapon Master, then back to Bard. You get you BAB up earlier, and the 4 levels of Weapon Master get you a total of +2 attack/+3 damage. If you want the spells earlier, then keep it the way you have it. (I also like to line up odd/even fighter levels with odd/even character levels, so I tend to switch every two levels when I multiclass fighter. That's just personal preference, though, so I get the feat every level.)
Also, remember that you can adjust your plan as you go, too.
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Looking at the wording on Discordant Voice, I don't think it would stack with itself. It says that it stacks with other energy damage the weapon does: I read that to mean that if your weapon normally does sonic damage, this would add to it.
I like Seize the Moment--that would work out better for you than Outflank, probably. (Our teamwork characters had rogue levels, so we were already all about the flanking, anyway.)
Another thing to check out is Oil of Bless Weapon: it lets you auto confirm a crit threat against evil foes, but this can't be used with Keen. With Improved Critical, though, auto-confirming crits is really handy.
I'm not a big fan of Lunge. I really, really want to like it, but it doesn't continue through to your AoOs, which makes it only half as useful, to me. You might want to look at using Enlarge Person to extend your reach and your flanking/adjacent squares. Enlarge isn't as good on a Dex-based character, though, and I think Enlarge Person doesn't work on an Aasimar, so it might not be the best option for you. (Although you could use it and switch to a great sword or earthbreaker: 15 str, 3d6, and 1.5x STR and Power Attack would make a nice backup...
Again, I really appreciate your input. The levels are taken when they are specifically to take advantage of the FCB that accelerates the advancement of Inspire Courage. I could accept that ruling on Discordant Voice and if there's going to be even a chance if it's applying differently from table to table I'd prefer to avoid it.
I'll probably go the Improved Critical route, and though I'll probably have a Keen weapon long before I select the feat, I'll be able to buy another '+' once I have it. Then Oil of Bless Weapon should be well worth it's cost.
Could you put the spoiler for Wrath of the Righteous plot behind a spoiler button please?
Also, having identicle builds seems like it would get boring after a while. You could easily make two different characters who benefit from the teamwork feats though. Maybe one's a Bard and one is an inquisitor or cleric.
I don't think that's a spoiler, just something that happened in our game - our GM rewrites tons of stuff in the AP's. And I can't change it now anyway. :(
@Akerlof,
One of the things I try to take into account (and all that formula may have) is how likely I am to hit an equivalent level foe. If my attack bonus is so high that it's all but guaranteed, PA seems a better choice than if I'm struggling to hit. In this case I find a properly built DD to have a well above average chance to hit, especially once I start including magical gear.
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Dervish dance requires both Weapon Finesse and 2 ranks in perform. You can't take it at level 1.
So to the response "nah I'd need weapon finesse" you already have it (though you're right in that it still won't work with a scimitar).
Dawnflower Dervishes gain Dervish Dance as a bonus feat at level 1 without needing the prerequisites.
I missed that part in the text. I was expecting to see what class they were somewhere in the description of everything they were planning to take..
In my back of the envelope calculations, the Dervish Dancer was hitting on a 6 at level 4 verses a CR 6 monster (with Heroism and Battle Dance being your only non-permanent buffs). The primary attacks at level 8 were hitting the median CR 10 monster on a 4 or better (assuming Heroism, Haste, and Cat's Grace or a +4 Dex belt.) That drops to a 7 at level 4 and a 6 at level 8 with Power Attack.@Akerlof,
One of the things I try to take into account (and all that formula may have) is how likely I am to hit an equivalent level foe. If my attack bonus is so high that it's all but guaranteed, PA seems a better choice than if I'm struggling to hit. In this case I find a properly built DD to have a well above average chance to hit, especially once I start including magical gear.
Just a note on the assumptions:
This is a PFS character, so you have to watch out for fame limitations on purchases: You won't be able to buy a +2 belt until you have 18 fame, which is tight at level 4 (you have to hit all secondary success conditions on 9 scenarios and play no modules). It's more likely to have the fame for a 16K item at 8th level.
Also, at some point you'll have to pick up a headband of charisma if you want to cast any spells above 2nd level.
When I'm doing damage calculations, I usually run the numbers for unbuffed, one round of buffs, and fully buffed to compare them. If you only want to do one set of calculations, I'd assume one round of buffs, on average.