I'm sure I'm not the first to mention this but, what if we just had the BAB of iterative attacks be based on full BAB? So, for instance, a character with +11/+6/+5 can full attack and get +11/+11/+11. Basically, you attack just as often, but are going to hit far more often on your attacks after the first?
I'm sure people are going to scream about TWF rogues who will now clearly out-DPR equivalent fighters in similar circumstances, but really, in a sensible game (they DO exist) couldn't this solve at least a little bit of the Linear Warrior/Quadratic Caster issue?
How would you apply such a suggestion to multi-classed characters?
Kwauss: It's based on your BAB, not your class. Everyone gets it when they hit iterative attacks at +6 BAB and beyond. When I say Martial, I mean anybody who doesn't solve problems at 17th level by winking and destroying the world. Even getting extra accurate iterative attacks wouldn't stop a cleric or wizard from casting at high level, just make those people who are swinging swords better at what they do.
Nefreet: This is a variant rules question. Doesn't it belong here?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
See Lefty X, martials don't really have a problem dealing damage. That isn't where they take second place to casters.
|
I'm sure I'm not the first to mention this but, what if we just had the BAB of iterative attacks be based on full BAB? So, for instance, a character with +11/+6/+5 can full attack and get +11/+11/+11. Basically, you attack just as often, but are going to hit far more often on your attacks after the first?
I'm sure people are going to scream about TWF rogues who will now clearly out-DPR equivalent fighters in similar circumstances, but really, in a sensible game (they DO exist) couldn't this solve at least a little bit of the Linear Warrior/Quadratic Caster issue?
Damage is generally not an issue with marshal characters. Most full BAB characters deal enough, with damage with iterative as is, to one-round an even CR monster.
When the figher/barbarian is already imposing the DEAD condition on anything he can full attack, increasing his damage by 50% changes nothing.
Lorekeeper: There are feats allowing you to add conditions to your attacks, but yes, they aren't ever going to have the UTILITY of casters. That, however, probably isn't going to be fixed in a system like Pathfinder. If I am interpreting your comment correctly, a game like Earthdawn or Legend where everyone can have the magic/utiliy that they want gives you that, but I am looking at making high-level martials more on par with caster, damage output wise.
Artanthos: Look at it this way, this would remove MISSES. You might rip the elder dragon apart with your flashing sword in one round, but you probably won't hit on that last attack, maybe the second to last as well. This change would make it so martials don't feel iterative attacks are wasted because of the lower chance to hit.
Design Manager
|
See Lefty X, martials don't really have a problem dealing damage. That isn't where they take second place to casters.
This. Single-target damage is the thing that martials are already good at. The break in the action economy paradigm won't be solved by bigger bonuses; a character can either full attack, or he can't, and generally when he can things are already going fine. It's the other things (battlefield control, non-combat conflict resolution, movement/transportation, narrative power, etc.) that create a gulf between martials and casters. A Wizard isn't more powerful because he can do more damage to a dragon than a Fighter at 16th level, he's more powerful because he probably won't need to damage the dragon at all. He can dominate it and use it as his new mount, teleport it away, or lock it in another dimension long enough to stroll in and get what he came for before whisking himself back to his tower on the sun for a glass of iced tea.
Ssalarn: I get what you and Lorekeeper are saying, but how to change things up without adding spells to the martials?
|
Design Manager
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ssalarn: I get what you and Lorekeeper are saying, but how to change things up without adding spells to the martials?
Suggestion 1: Vital Strike isn't a bunch of feats, it's something you can just do at the appropriate levels. This helps keep your damage competitive without burniing into scarce and irreplaceable resources.
Suggestion 2: Unique transportation options. Kirth Gersen has a set of alternate rules he uses to try and mitigate martial/caster disparity, and believe part of that is that every non-spellcaster gets access to a flying mount by around 10th level. The 3pp supplement Companions of the Firmament has a very well laid out presentation on "loyal companions" which are basically creatures who help fill the animal companion role without actually providing a big boost in combat power (like pegasii with bonus hit die and saves dependent on your level).
Suggestion 3: Increased in class narrative powers comparable to what casters can do. Comparable mind, not identical. Casters can create their own plane of existence; martials should at least get a castle and retinue, or guild and information/assassination network, etc. And build these into the class so they aren't so dependent on the GM. If the Wizard can snap his fingers and conjure up a palace full of magical servants and you've got to buy the GM a specialty pizza to get a mansion, there's an imbalance.
**EDIT**
It also helps to have clearly defined parameters of "caster", "martial", and the stuff in between. I look at like:
Full Casters: Wizards, Sorcerers, Witches, Summoners, Clerics, Druids, Oracles, etc.
3/4 Casters: Bard, Inquisitor, Alchemist, Magus, etc.
1/2 Casters: Paladin, Ranger, etc.
Martials: Fighter, Rogue, Monk (kind of), Cavalier, Gunslinger, etc.
Full casters are probably too powerful and you want to avoid introducing more abilities like wish and create demiplane into the world.
3/4 casters are just right. This is the baseline you want to shoot for.
1/2 casters are pretty reasonable but probably have one or two serious chinks in their build, or a particular swath of situations they don't have options for. Minimal improvement needed.
Martials have difficulty branching out. Options for problem resolution are generally very narrow and/or specific. Cannot deal with many mobility or narrative related issues without the help of a 3/4 or full caster. These are the little lost sheep that need the most assistance.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This suggestion just makes mixed-spellcasters more potent, and doesn't do that much for straight martial characters.
Ssalarn: I like suggestion 3. Please get busy on your 400 page expansion of all non-full caster classes, so I don't have to write it. ;)
Kwauss: Which suggestion? Mine?
The problem with that guild/kingdom thing is... why can't a caster get a kingdom?
I'm sure there are published adventures where a caster rules a land, or has a mage's guild. A wizard could easily roleplay that as his IC goal one day and have just as much a chance as a fighter.
To be honest? Most of it is a player paradigm issue ranee then a game one. Many games run smoothly without issues.
That many fighters have 7 int and no social skills is a player decision rather than a game enforced one. While I haven't tried it yet I'm confidant you could finish any ap or pfs on a 14 str 16 int human fighter who gets 7 skills around.
The only thing I will say though is it seems any time rogues are given a nice rogue trick its always once per day..
|
Design Manager
|
The problem with that guild/kingdom thing is... why can't a caster get a kingdom?
He can, he's just got to use his existing class features to do it. He can mind-screw a king to become the power behind the throne, ride a pet dragon, demon, or angel he conjured up in and set up shop, or just create his own private world to rule. He already has class features that let him have a kingdom, we just named them Create Demiplane, Gate, Dominate Person/Monster, etc.
@Lefty X
It's worth going and looking up the rules for Kirthfinder in these forums, he's already written up rules for suggestion #3.
|
Design Manager
|
While I haven't tried it yet I'm confidant you could finish any ap or pfs on a 14 str 16 int human fighter who gets 7 skills around.
Having played a lot of PFS and most of the APs out there, I can say that this has not been my experience.
The iconic Valeros got obliterated in City of Golden Death despite being run by a fairly competent player.Reign of Winter basically forced our group to learn how to optimize (and our GM to give us a hard restart on the AP since no one from the original group made it through the first book).
Wrath of the Righteous is crazy difficult without optimized characters or a party full of paladins.
Granted, all of that assumes you've got a GM who is using terrain, skills, and monster abilities as they are presented and not pulling punches, forgetting about soft cover, not using the sunder demons to break your weapons because he thinks it's rude, etc.
He can, he's just got to use his existing class features to do it. He can mind-screw a king to become the power behind the throne, ride a pet dragon, demon, or angel he conjured up in and set up shop, or just create his own private world to rule. He already has class features that let him do that.The problem with that guild/kingdom thing is... why can't a caster get a kingdom?
or he could lead an army in battle and be awarded his own castle, or use his charm and wits to form a guild that controls all the underhanded deeds in a city... exactly how a martial would.
Why does a martial get to be a cha-less meatbag and get followers? You can't just handwave it for them or it becomes massively immersion breaking.
You're basically giving the fighter mindslave privilege on a kingdom just because wizards are actually capable of that with their spells.
|
That many fighters have 7 int and no social skills is a player decision rather than a game enforced one. While I haven't tried it yet I'm confidant you could finish any ap or pfs on a 14 str 16 int human fighter who gets 7 skills around.
I'm giving a go at a 16 STR / 15 INT (16 at level 4) Cavalier for PFS. Enough skill points to handle social skills and (IMO) enough strength to handle combat, what with full BAB and charging all the time.
|
Design Manager
|
or he could lead an army in battle and be awarded his own castle, or use his charm and wits to form a guild that controls all the underhanded deeds in a city... exactly how a martial would.
Why does a martial get to be a cha-less meatbag and get followers? You can't just handwave it for them or it becomes massively immersion breaking.
You're basically giving the fighter mindslave privilege on a kingdom just because wizards are actually capable of that with their spells.
Because again, if player 1 can say "By the way GM, FYI, I have my own world now. That's where I hang out between adventures" and player 2 has to go hat in hand begging for table scraps, that's an issue. It's not immersion breaking for the guy who can throttle dragons the size of hum-vees with his bare hands to have people looking to him for protection; frankly I think it's immersion breaking to pretend that that guy's running around and the world isn't taking notice. A good GM will weave this acquisition right into the story; if he knows the Fighter gets a castle next level it's probably smart to drop a hook in to account for that. Bad GM's are part of the reason the reason martials need that stuff hard-coded into the class in the first place.
|
Design Manager
|
That many fighters have 7 int and no social skills is a player decision rather than a game enforced one. While I haven't tried it yet I'm confidant you could finish any ap or pfs on a 14 str 16 int human fighter who gets 7 skills around.I'm giving a go at a 16 STR / 15 INT (16 at level 4) Cavalier for PFS. Enough skill points to handle social skills and (IMO) enough strength to handle combat, what with full BAB and charging all the time.
Cavaliers kind of rock. They're already hovering right on the edge of what I'd consider a martial. They've got several abilities that mechanically mimic magical effects, an extra body on the field improving action economy, and some really great (and one or two not so great) Orders that can help round out the character immensely. I'd probably say they need the least help out of any of the martial classes (noting that when you add in archetypes, the monk gets to pop up next to the Paladin and Ranger as an effective "1/2 caster").
If you've seen the new issue of Wayfinder, they've actually got Hell Knight Cavalier Orders that (IMHO) put the Cav right in the same ballpark as the Paladin.
Ssalarn: I like suggestion 3. Please get busy on your 400 page expansion of all non-full caster classes, so I don't have to write it. ;)
Kwauss: Which suggestion? Mine?
Sorry, the suggestion that everyone get iteratives at max BAB, which was my understanding of Lefty X's clarified proposal.
Sorry, posts are moving too fast.
I think the only way to fix this is to only give specific class's levels access to protected feats/abilities.
For instance: a rogue feat that only they can take (after say 5 levels) that allows you to add their class level to a skill once per round. A fighter feat that allows them to add their class level to their CMB once per round.
Rogues need to break the skill DC system so it's remodulated for them, if they're going to be a skillmaster. Similarly for fighters and CMB/CMD. I might also give them options to add their class level to any one save per round? Just ideas...
Because again, if player 1 can say "By the way GM, FYI, I have my own world now. That's where I hang out between adventures" and player 2 has to go hat in hand begging for table scraps, that's an issue. It's not immersion breaking for the guy who can throttle dragons the size of hum-vees with his bare hands to have people looking to him for protection; frankly I think it's immersion breaking to pretend that that guy's running around and the world isn't taking notice. A good GM will weave this acquisition right into the story; if he knows the Fighter gets a castle next level it's probably smart to drop a hook in to account for that. Bad GM's are part of the reason the reason martials need that stuff hard-coded into the class in the first place.
Not everyone is ruler-material just because they're strong. They might protect you, but they might also be a tyrant.
The castle also roots the entire party to one spot unless the fighter wants to give up his kingdom to go hunt a dragon in the distant Isles of Ruin. If you give him an entire army that follows him around on these adventures, say goodbye to stealth and hello to [every leadership exploit ever].
|
Design Manager
|
Because again, if player 1 can say "By the way GM, FYI, I have my own world now. That's where I hang out between adventures" and player 2 has to go hat in hand begging for table scraps, that's an issue. It's not immersion breaking for the guy who can throttle dragons the size of hum-vees with his bare hands to have people looking to him for protection; frankly I think it's immersion breaking to pretend that that guy's running around and the world isn't taking notice. A good GM will weave this acquisition right into the story; if he knows the Fighter gets a castle next level it's probably smart to drop a hook in to account for that. Bad GM's are part of the reason the reason martials need that stuff hard-coded into the class in the first place.Not everyone is ruler-material just because they're strong. They might protect you, but they might also be a tyrant.
The castle also roots the entire party to one spot unless the fighter wants to give up his kingdom to go hunt a dragon in the distant Isles of Ruin. If you give him an entire army that follows him around on these adventures, say goodbye to stealth and hello to [every leadership exploit ever].
Does the party all get rooted to one spot because the Wizard has a plane that he bounces back and forth from? Maybe the martial has regents and stewards that run things for him, like pretty much every king ever in history who went off to war. If the new king decides to bring his army off to war where they can go the way of every hireling that ever stepped foot into the Tomb of Horrors, he's going to be king of an empty nation, assuming he can even afford to transport them all to wherever the adventure is.
The fact that some martials could be benevolent and others tyrants isn't a flaw, it's a selling point.
It's almost like you need all those exploits to keep up with a character who can have his own undead horde stowed away on his demiplane for emergencies with a pittance of investment.
This. There is absolutely nothing you can do with Leadership that a full caster can't do with a fraction of the class resources.
I'm not trying to say Wizards are okay where they are, it's just better for some people to be broken and agree to power down in civil games than for one guy to be the balance martyr.
"Should martials be buffed... or casters brought down?" is the most well titled topic on this subject and it came to the right conclusion.
The answer is yes. The answer is not to make every fighter as broken as Wizards or make wizards choose 1 spell per level per day. It's to bring both to where the balanced folk dwell in the middle. Paladin, Ranger, Inquisitor, etc.
|
Design Manager
|
I'm not trying to say Wizards are okay where they are, it's just better for some people to be broken and agree to power down in civil games than for one guy to be the balance martyr.
"Should martials be buffed... or casters brought down?" is the most well titled topic on this subject and it came to the right conclusion.
The answer is yes. The answer is not to make every fighter as broken as Wizards or make wizards choose 1 spell per level per day. It's to bring both to where the balanced folk dwell in the middle. Paladin, Ranger, Inquisitor, etc.
And that's what my suggestions would do. Raise martials up to the same place as the 3/4 casters like the Bard and Inquisitor (widely regarded as the best balanced classes in the game). If you seriously think giving a Fighter a hippogryph and a castle is going to put him at the same level as a Wizard... I don't even know what to say. That's like saying giving 12 year-olds beebee guns is going to put our nation at risk because they now have the destructive power of a B-2 Spirit loaded with nuclear warheads.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why does a Cha-less fighter have followers?
Because he's a 12th level freaking badass. He's got fans and mavens and admirers who want to learn how to be a badass and bask in the radiance of someone who is just that incredible.
Cha is just a numbers modifier. High level is a thing all its own, and class features are meant to exemplify what high level heroes can do. One of those things could very easily be 'resonates with the hopes and dreams of the common men' and boom, instant followers who want to be just like you.
==Aelryinth
And that's what my suggestions would do. Raise martials up to the same place as the 3/4 casters like the Bard and Inquisitor (widely regarded as the best balanced classes in the game). If you seriously think giving a Fighter a hippogryph and a castle is going to put him at the same level as a Wizard... I don't even know what to say. That's like saying giving 12 year-olds beebee guns is going to put our nation at risk because they now have the destructive power of a B-2 Spirit loaded with nuclear warheads.I'm not trying to say Wizards are okay where they are, it's just better for some people to be broken and agree to power down in civil games than for one guy to be the balance martyr.
"Should martials be buffed... or casters brought down?" is the most well titled topic on this subject and it came to the right conclusion.
The answer is yes. The answer is not to make every fighter as broken as Wizards or make wizards choose 1 spell per level per day. It's to bring both to where the balanced folk dwell in the middle. Paladin, Ranger, Inquisitor, etc.
I just think a fighter should be powerful for his individual power. If it was something like a Warlord or a Beastmaster, maybe I could understand the mount/guild thing. But a fighter should be the best at fighting. Not commanding or riding, necessarily, unless he wants to. It just feels off to me with what a Fighter is supposed to be.
And I'm not saying a castle/guild puts him on level with Wizards. All hyperbole, I assure you.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
so who IS supposed to be the best rider? Some theif?!?
Sorry, warriors have historically ALWAYS been the best riders, because the whole art of riding evolved to carry soldiers to battle better, faster, harder.
Fighters create organizations as they get more powerful...either students clamoring for what they know or armies to get them what they want. Brufus the Barbarian may only want the roar of the crowd, but Marcus the Fighter is going to found a gladiatorial school and churn out the highly skilled warriors that crowd demands on top of being a top-flight, skilled draw himself.
==Aelryinth
|
Design Manager
|
so who IS supposed to be the best rider? Some theif?!?
Sorry, warriors have historically ALWAYS been the best riders, because the whole art of riding evolved to carry soldiers to battle better, faster, harder.
Fighters create organizations as they get more powerful...either students clamoring for what they know or armies to get them what they want. Brufus the Barbarian may only want the roar of the crowd, but Marcus the Fighter is going to found a gladiatorial school and churn out the highly skilled warriors that crowd demands on top of being a top-flight, skilled draw himself.
==Aelryinth
It's a fairly common trope in fantasy anyways. Most experienced / high level warriors have castles, gladiator schools, dojos, etc. where people come to learn their techniques or benefit from the protection of their reputation. Aragorn leveled up and got Gondor. Musashi Miyamoto (IRL) was given the run of a powerful family's estates just because they wanted the honor of hosting him. Conan leveled up and won a kingdom. John Carter basically became the king of Mars. This is really a fairly standard and appropriate trope.
so who IS supposed to be the best rider? Some theif?!?
Sorry, warriors have historically ALWAYS been the best riders, because the whole art of riding evolved to carry soldiers to battle better, faster, harder.
Fighters create organizations as they get more powerful...either students clamoring for what they know or armies to get them what they want. Brufus the Barbarian may only want the roar of the crowd, but Marcus the Fighter is going to found a gladiatorial school and churn out the highly skilled warriors that crowd demands on top of being a top-flight, skilled draw himself.
==Aelryinth
Maybe the Cavalier. Just a hunch.
A barbarian can lead an army as much as a fighter. Why wouldn't people clamor to learn from him about how to let go of their fear and shatter magic with their axe? What if a Fighter wants to be left alone, or just travel with his group of friends? They're hardly learning anything from him if he's off adventuring.
|
Design Manager
|
so who IS supposed to be the best rider? Some theif?!?
Sorry, warriors have historically ALWAYS been the best riders, because the whole art of riding evolved to carry soldiers to battle better, faster, harder.
Fighters create organizations as they get more powerful...either students clamoring for what they know or armies to get them what they want. Brufus the Barbarian may only want the roar of the crowd, but Marcus the Fighter is going to found a gladiatorial school and churn out the highly skilled warriors that crowd demands on top of being a top-flight, skilled draw himself.
==Aelryinth
Maybe the Cavalier. Just a hunch.
A barbarian can lead an army as much as a fighter. Why wouldn't people clamor to learn from him about how to let go of their fear and shatter magic with their axe? What if a Fighter wants to be left alone, or just travel with his group of friends? They're hardly learning anything from him if he's off adventuring.
Whether the Fighter should be the best rider, he should still be able to ride and have a mount. That's just standard issue stuff. Cavaliers and Barbarians deserve a castle/dojo/clanhold as much as the Fighter, which is why I've said "martials" numerous times and used Fighters as an example. I would assume that "wanting to be left alone" is exactly why a martial would go adventuring instead of staying in his castle/dojo/clanhold, though really, nothing says "I want to be left alone" like surrounding yourself with a fortress and manning all the gates with angry guards who all have orders to shoot on sight. Certainly it's more easy and efficient than having to chase off all the people who approach you one at a time.
I'm not seeing what narrative power the fighter is getting here in that case. And wouldn't casters get the same kind of fame for their high level?
I still just can't stomach the idea that we have to involve NPCs to make Fighter balanced. Barbarian is balanced, maybe even too strong, by just being nuts with an axe. Why can't we find a way to make fighters balanced, skilled masters of the blade/club/bow/weapongroups?
|
Design Manager
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not seeing what narrative power the fighter is getting here in that case. And wouldn't casters get the same kind of fame for their high level?
I still just can't stomach the idea that we have to involve NPCs to make Fighter balanced. Barbarian is balanced, maybe even too strong, by just being nuts with an axe. Why can't we find a way to make fighters balanced, skilled masters of the blade/club/bow/weapongroups?
Because after a certain point the game doesn't give a f%+% how hard you can hit things. Barbarians aren't good because they can hit things with an axe, they're good because they have more skills, better saves, and have a dozen different ways they can interact with magic, including flying, dispelling magic by tearing it apart, etc.
You want the Fighter (or any other martial) to catch up without a companion and the resources of a small city? Give him something that has the same capability as magic. Let him cut apart and deflect spells, let him use his sword to slice the tattered threads of reality and chase after a caster that just tried to teleport away. Give him more feats that scale and add additional functionality to skills, like a feat that adds 1/2 his level to Perception and allows him to pierce illusions at higher levels. Give him scaling bonuses to Intimidate and Diplomacy based on his badass reputation. Give him the ability to subdue a dragon and make it his mount. Give him the ability to fast travel Hulk or Carter style in huge leaps and bounds. The Fighter has issues because his feats don't grow as he levels (while every single spell does), meaning his crappy +1 from Weapon Focus is still a crappy +1 at 20th level. He has issues because people feel like the class has to be limited by real world physics despite the fact that even Sean Reynolds has acknowledged that every character above 6th level is basically a superhero. A guy expected to arm-wrestle devils shouldn't be limited to the same rules as the guy who arm-wrestles farmers, and as long as he is his only option to rise above those limitations is ready access to someone or something else that gets to ignore them.
I'm not seeing what narrative power the fighter is getting here in that case. And wouldn't casters get the same kind of fame for their high level?
I still just can't stomach the idea that we have to involve NPCs to make Fighter balanced. Barbarian is balanced, maybe even too strong, by just being nuts with an axe. Why can't we find a way to make fighters balanced, skilled masters of the blade/club/bow/weapongroups?
Because after a certain point the game doesn't give a f~$* how hard you can hit things. Barbarians aren't good because they can hit things with an axe, they're good because they have more skills, better saves, and have a dozen different ways they can interact with magic, including flying, dispelling magic by tearing it apart, etc.
You want the Fighter (or any other martial) to catch up without a companion and the resources of a small city? Give him something that has the same capability as magic. Let him cut apart and deflect spells, let him use his sword to slice the tattered threads of reality and chase after a caster that just tried to teleport away. Give him more feats that scale and add additional functionality to skills, like a feat that adds 1/2 his level to Perception and allows him to pierce illusions at higher levels. Give him scaling bonuses to Intimidate and Diplomacy based on his badass reputation. Give him the ability to subdue a dragon and make it his mount. Give him the ability to fast travel Hulk or Carter style in huge leaps and bounds. The Fighter has issues because his feats don't grow as he levels (while every single spell does), meaning his crappy +1 from Weapon Focus is still a crappy +1 at 20th level. He has issues because people feel like the class has to be limited by real world physics despite the fact that even Sean Reynolds has acknowledged that every character above 6th level is basically a superhero. A guy expected to arm-wrestle devils shouldn't be limited to the same rules as the guy who arm-wrestles farmers, and as long...
Now we're getting somewhere. First of all, Screw people who want Fighters to stay in the realm of reality. They're not actually being concerned with balance. People need to get rid of their phobias about weeaboo fightan magic and let the fighter be an actual class. They should be able to jump around like (a lesser) John Carter, or cut mountains, or even just do the little, nitpicky things devs refuse to let even the most well-trained warrior overcome. The sooner we can make fighters and co. good, the faster we can start making wizards (read: spells) not overpowering.
Why can't we find a way to make fighters balanced, skilled masters of the blade/club/bow/weapongroups?
Because the only way to make that balanced is to make the wizard the "skilled master of the fireball" without any of the other powers.
The wizard is a laptop. The fighter is a hammer. Sure, at 1st level when you're building a treehouse the hammer is a notable and meaningful tool. At 15th level when you're the CEO of a construction company building a whole new city, that laptop is going to be handy, but the hammer is going to be quite superflous.
And the solution to that isn't to make the hammer hit harder.
"Guy that's really good with a blade but not much else" should be the description of a 5th level warrior, not a 10th level fighter.
How about a system that caps the power of magic items usable by classes, with the more magical classes getting the worst progression, and more mundane ones a better progression. Then mundane classes, who need more magical assistance, get to have items 2x as powerful as magical classes over 20 levels?
<takes cover>
I think it can be hard to explain that specific thing from a flavor perspective that doesn't feel very heavyhanded. When wizards are worse than fighters at using the same specific arcane gadget something feels fishy. Especially if it's an amulet of waterbreathing.
But I think a lot can be done by incorporating the things martials usually put their money towards into the class abilities - that way they have more money for the stuff that gives new powers.
For example, you could add in to weapon training that the weapon counts as a +2/+3/+4/+5 weapon too - that way, the fighter only needs to get a +1 weapon and has more money for other things.
Likewise with stat boosters; consider an ability like this:
Martial Conditioning (Ex): At 6th level, a fighter gains a +2 enhancement bonus to strength, dexterity and constitution. This bonus increases by +2 for every 4 levels, to a maximum of +8 at 18th level.
This would mean they have notably more money to put towards things like amulets of waterbreathing, flying carpets etc.
Thank you to everyone who commented on my proposal.
|
Strangely enough, the majority of issues between the two classes seem to be non-combat rather than combat related. Its the fact that spells provide so much utility that few other class feature can match those abilities outside of combat. How many times has the rogue sniffed around for clues only to have the cleric speak with dead and get the answers. How often is the monk or ninja massive jump check superseded by a low level spell from a wizard.
Strangely enough, and forgive me for bringing another game into it, but a recent edition of DD brought in the idea of ritual casting, an ability that put all those noncombat options into a single poorly designed and implemented concept. It did give me an idea.
Imagine 4 characters at the edge of a beach. Their object is the boat at the bottom of the lake which contains the all important relic. Now in the game now you rely either on Mr. Caster to have water breathing prepped in order to get down there. What if instead:
Mrs. Cleric call out to her god, spend a few minutes praying for the blessing of the spirits to grant her the power to breathe water and boom cleric is ready to go.
Mr. Wizard digs into his spell book, spending a few minutes learning the spell and casts water breathing on himself, ready to go.
Mrs. Druid studies the water for a couple of minutes and transforms into a lizard man, capable of handling the situation as if born to it.
Mr. Fighter on the other hand spends a few minutes digging through his bags and pulls out this vial of oily leaves that he immediately drinks down ready to go. Luckily he lives in a magical world and without magic at his fingertips he has been collecting strange magical concoctions his whole career. Without spending any of his limited resources on them.
Now this isn't to say that Mr. Alchemist can't follow the Fighter approach or that maybe Mrs. Barbarian ties to nature are so strong that she can make these minor transformation as well as a druid.
The point is that certain amounts of utility should be available to all characters regardless of class through one means or another. As it stands the fighter has to spend gold on his version where the other classes don't.
|
Design Manager
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Mr. Fighter on the other hand spends a few minutes digging through his bags and pulls out this vial of oily leaves that he immediately drinks down ready to go. Luckily he lives in a magical world and without magic at his fingertips he has been collecting strange magical concoctions his whole career. Without spending any of his limited resources on them.
This, to me, really ties back into something that's probably my biggest source of dissatisfaction with the game, the limited uses of skills. Skills, like the Fighter, are very linear. A guy with 20 ranks in climb can't actually do much more than the guy with 1 rank. He can do it faster maybe, or under more adverse conditions, but that's about it. I'd like to quadratic skill evolution, where a character with enough ranks in Survival knows where to find plants that can allow you to breathe underwater or draw out virulent poisons as effectively as a spell. Or where a character with enough ranks in Escape Artist can escape from spell effects like Maze with a single skill check, or even Imprisonment if it's high enough.
That could go on for a while, but long story short, if skills had the kind of quadratic growth that we've seen in a lot of fantasy culture and that spells have by default, a lot of the discrepancies would be resolved.
As ridiculous as it sounds, Harry Potter is probably a good starting place for this. Particularly the herbology stuff. Just tie gathering these plants into Survival and Knowledge (Nature), and you could be good to go. Gillyweed would be the plant of choice for water breathing for instance.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That could go on for a while, but long story short, if skills had the kind of quadratic growth that we've seen in a lot of fantasy culture and that spells have by default, a lot of the discrepancies would be resolved.
Right. While I don't buy into the whole martial/caster disparity issue (at least at commonly played levels) I 100% agree I'd like to see skills scale better. The Skill tricks from 3.5 would be nice as well as stuff like the Lorecall spells (but make them feats).
I want to see something very special kick in at 10 ranks. Hmm, to make them mix with PF as written how about when you get 10 ranks in a skill you get a Ki point and free access to a related Ki talent? Gliding Steps* with Acrobatics.
Spider Step with Climb.
* the qinggong monk Ki ability here, which yes, grants the feat if you burn a Ki point.
|
Design Manager
|
It wouldn't even necessarily need to be a ki point thing (though that's certainly workable).
Skill Tricks are one of the very few things I miss about 3.5 that don't have good analogue in Pathfinder, and I really think they should. I'd definitely by a book on them, especially if it happened to present the system in such a way that you got one section full of really cool PFS legal feats, and another section presenting what it would look like if you just gained those abilities via skill investment.
|
Design Manager
|
As ridiculous as it sounds, Harry Potter is probably a good starting place for this. Particularly the herbology stuff. Just tie gathering these plants into Survival and Knowledge (Nature), and you could be good to go. Gillyweed would be the plant of choice for water breathing for instance.
Amusingly, the two key pop fantasy moments I was thinking of when I wrote that really were Aragorn using kingsfoil to suppress the corruption of a morgul blade and Harry Potter popping gillyweed.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Fighters could benefit from an entire rewrite of skills.
Skill RANKS, not modifiers, should mean something. Someone with 15 Ranks in a skill should have something more then someone with +15 to the check.
So, you've just added a Skills rewrite to the Feats rewrite wish schema.
Oh, and I do a lot of that extra stuff.
I shifted Weapon Training to provide a virtual enhancement bonus to your weapon, in addition to the +. Now, it only goes up to +4, and it does require a masterwork weapon, but it does mean that once a fighter hits level 4, any master work weapon in his groups is now effectively magical. At 12th, it works fine against cold iron and silver DR, and at 16th ignores Adamantine DR. If it's magical, the virtual enhancement stacks up to +5, so fighters can start ignoring DR faster then any other class.
I have their armor training bonus apply as virtual enhancement to armor and/or shield, up to a max of +5. THEN, I give first str, then con, then Dex enhancement as a free exoskeleton enhancement for wearing armor. The enhancement bonus is -1 in light armor, par in medium, and +1 in full armor...encouraging the fighter to wear heavy armor.
So a fighter does not need that stupid belt, he gets the effect from class features. That aren't magical and work fine in an A-M shell.
As for extra stats...I went the opposite route. I give the fighter 2 stat points, given out 1 by 1, at every 4 levels, to his LOWEST ability scores.
Which rounds up those glaring weaknesses in stats, which is a beneficial side effect of his constant training.
==Aelryinth