prices of magic items

[tony gent]

I know that there are clear rules for the cost of magic items but I've been thinking that items that would be in high demand like healing potions and wands of healing would demand a higher price as adventures have money to burn they could afford to pay more and merchants being merchants are going to try to pump the price a little
Your thoughts please

[Atragon]

And because of the law of supply and demand, more crafters have started to supply the needs of the market, thus driving prices down below where they originally were from increased competition.

The logic works both ways. Unless you're deliberately playing in a low magic setting, and looking at across the board price changes and/or availability restrictions, I would tend to leave the magic item prices alone.

[tony gent]

Merchants are not above price fixing
Even today with super markets boasting how they have so many products cheaper than there competitor and here in the UK at least the most common price difference is just one penny
So merchants are not above price fixing why compete with each other when all can over charge

[Diego Rossi]

We are speaking of high priced items. My estimate is that 1 gp is worth between 25 and 50 €, 20 to 40 £.
So 500-1.000 £ for a 1st level potion.

While I agree that the price of the magic items should be affected by the demand, in reality we would see very few shop with any of those items on the shelves and only in major cities (remember, the largest city in the Inner Sea has 300.000 inhabitants). They would be all items that are produced when someone order them or at most a shop would have a few of the most common stockpiled for the people that want them.

That would both push up the price (you are ordering it, you can pay for it) and push it down (finally we have a costumer, let's keep it).

[Wheldrake]

It all depends on your conception of the place of magic items in the world. If magic items are the iPads of the fantasy world, then they are ubiquitous and highly desired and frequently bought and sold by those who have the means to do so.

On the other hand, if magic is a mysterious and fabled force that most people never see and only hear tell about third-hand, and magic items can only be found in ancient tombs and mystical places, you might not be able to buy a single item at any price anywhere.

Are adventuring companies (and by extension magic-item-crafting wizards and others) commonplace or extremely rare? It all comes down to that central question, which IIRC is fairly well put forward in the core rulebook. And it's a broad spectrum, which can be wildly different in different parts of your gaming world.

[Doug's Workshop]

Of course price fixing happens. A longsword has cost 15 gp anywhere you are in Golarion. If that isn't collusion between merchants, I don't know what is!

But seriously, if the minimum wage in Pathfinder is 1sp/day, that means a healing potion runs about $4000 - $5000 US. There are some pro sports players who would buy that, because it's crucial for them to be out on the field scoring baskets, making touchdowns, and defending Sandpoint from raiding giants. But the normal person just doesn't have the desire or need to spend $4000 on a one-use item.

So the "market" has priced potions at the appropriate level.

[Eoxyn]

Paying more than you have to for an item you need is incredibly unfun in play, and unless its obviously something the players are supposed to circumvent they will be very displeased with any DM that springs it on them.

[Mavael]

tony gent wrote:

Merchants are not above price fixing

Even today with super markets boasting how they have so many products cheaper than there competitor and here in the UK at least the most common price difference is just one penny
So merchants are not above price fixing why compete with each other when all can over charge

If I were a PC in your game (or a game which uses this logic) I'd go berserk. First I'd try to argue OOC, not only with the supply and demand argument but also that the game is balanced around the prices advertized in the rule books.

If that doesn't work my character would take things in his own hands, that greedy merchant thinks he can f~#+ me over? Think again. Derailment incoming.

[Woundweaver]

tony gent wrote:

I know that there are clear rules for the cost of magic items but I've been thinking that items that would be in high demand like healing potions and wands of healing would demand a higher price as adventures have money to burn they could afford to pay more and merchants being merchants are going to try to pump the price a little

Your thoughts please

Taking the potion of healing as the example. You not only have merchants as those setting the price, you also have churches, some of whom have a divine mandate (healing domain), to get healing out into the hands of the public possibly reducing prices or preventing price fixing.

[Zhayne]

Adventurers are rare as hen's teeth, and the average peasant will never, in his life, be able to afford one. Magic items are hardly 'in high demand'.

[Jorshamo]

The problem with price inflation by collusion is that it only takes one person to undercut everyone else to bring the whole thing down to regular pricing. And with the way they think, if nobody steps up, the PCs sure as hell will. You just given them a golden opportunity to make money, with basically no effort expended on their part.

[JoeJ]

Zhayne wrote:

Adventurers are rare as hen's teeth, and the average peasant will never, in his life, be able to afford one. Magic items are hardly 'in high demand'.

If that's the case, magic items of any kind will be made to order and not sitting on store shelves. So pay your money (if you can increase the merchant's attitude to Helpful or better he'll only require half up front) and come back next Tuesday.

Going the other direction, selling something a magic item you found in a dungeon probably requires weeks or even months of searching for a buyer who: 1. Wants something like that, 2. Can afford it, and 3. Doesn't already have one.

[JoeJ]

It's not just magic items. The entire price list is messed up. Bows, for example, should be significantly cheaper than swords because they are made of wood. In the pre-industrial world, wood was a lot cheaper than metal. (Keep in mind, also, that in medieval England every yeoman was required by law to own a bow - something that would be completely impossible using Pathfinder's prices.)

I found a web site: [url]=http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/medprice.htm[url] that has real prices taken from medieval English documents, if you're feeling ambitious enough to tackle correcting the game's price list. Or if you're feeling lazy, you can do what I do and use the prices in GURPS Low Tech.

NPCs casting spells is obviously a separate category: there is no real world analog to draw on. Pretty much any way you look at it, though, either the prices in the rules are much too high - as in at least ten times what they should be, or NPC spellcasters are much too easy to find. Either the cost of having the spell cast or the maximum level of caster available in a settlement (or both) should be changed. This actually has the effect of lowering the price of magic items significantly even if the price of materials is unchanged (this won't have much of a game effect if treasure is reduced by the same fraction).

It should be remembered, however, that these are hand made items, and that nobody sane is going to make something that expensive and just put it on a shelf in the hope that somebody someday will buy it. So no, you can't just go into town and buy that +2 Sword of Ogre Decapitation you've been dreaming about. But if you've got the gold, you can probably find somebody to make it for you.

[Loren Pechtel]

In any stable, free market without supply restraints you will find that prices end up at the cost of manufacturing plus a reasonable profit margin.

What constitutes reasonable can vary based on the price (you'll make a higher % on something that costs a penny than something that costs $100) but the pattern exists throughout the economy.

Thus the markup on the high demand items will be no more than the markup on the low demand items. If anything it will be less because your inventory costs will be higher with an item with lower turnover.

[JoeJ]

Loren Pechtel wrote:

In any stable, free market without supply restraints you will find that prices end up at the cost of manufacturing plus a reasonable profit margin.

What constitutes reasonable can vary based on the price (you'll make a higher % on something that costs a penny than something that costs $100) but the pattern exists throughout the economy.

Thus the markup on the high demand items will be no more than the markup on the low demand items. If anything it will be less because your inventory costs will be higher with an item with lower turnover.

Medieval Europe was not known for having free markets. Laws in most towns required craftsmen to belong the the guild, which set the prices. Charging too little or too much would get you expelled from the guild, and if you're caught doing business outside the guild your entire stock can be confiscated, and you fined as well.

There was also less wealth per capita in the economy, which really limited what a craftsman could afford to keep in inventory. If it was something that wasn't expected to sell very quickly, you'd usually have to have it made to order.

[Ashiel]

Doug's Workshop wrote:

Of course price fixing happens. A longsword has cost 15 gp anywhere you are in Golarion. If that isn't collusion between merchants, I don't know what is!

But seriously, if the minimum wage in Pathfinder is 1sp/day, that means a healing potion runs about $4000 - $5000 US. There are some pro sports players who would buy that, because it's crucial for them to be out on the field scoring baskets, making touchdowns, and defending Sandpoint from raiding giants. But the normal person just doesn't have the desire or need to spend $4000 on a one-use item.

So the "market" has priced potions at the appropriate level.

Actually, minimum wage would be something like 4.2 sp a day, and would require you to be pretty incompetent at your job.

EDIT: You'd need to have an Int (for Craft) or Wis (for Profession) of 3 (minimum that a human is going to roll on 3d6), 0 ranks in the job, and no special modifiers, then take 10 for a 6, divide by 2 for 3 gp / week, then divided by 7 for pay per day; or divide by 5 if we're assuming only a 5 day work week, in which case it comes out to about 6 sp / day.

[JoeJ]

Ashiel wrote:

Doug's Workshop wrote:

Of course price fixing happens. A longsword has cost 15 gp anywhere you are in Golarion. If that isn't collusion between merchants, I don't know what is!

But seriously, if the minimum wage in Pathfinder is 1sp/day, that means a healing potion runs about $4000 - $5000 US. There are some pro sports players who would buy that, because it's crucial for them to be out on the field scoring baskets, making touchdowns, and defending Sandpoint from raiding giants. But the normal person just doesn't have the desire or need to spend $4000 on a one-use item.

So the "market" has priced potions at the appropriate level.

Actually, minimum wage would be something like 4.2 sp a day, and would require you to be pretty incompetent at your job.

EDIT: You'd need to have an Int (for Craft) or Wis (for Profession) of 3 (minimum that a human is going to roll on 3d6), 0 ranks in the job, and no special modifiers, then take 10 for a 6, divide by 2 for 3 gp / week, then divided by 7 for pay per day; or divide by 5 if we're assuming only a 5 day work week, in which case it comes out to about 6 sp / day.

The hireling price is 3sp/day trained and 1sp/day untrained according to the price list on p. 159. The definitions of p. 163 say that a trained hireling includes "mercenary warriors, masons, craftsmen, cooks, scribes, teamsters, and other trained hirelings." Untrained includes "laborers, maids, and other menial workers."

[Ashiel]

JoeJ wrote:

The hireling price is 3sp/day trained and 1sp/day untrained according to the price list on p. 159. The definitions of p. 163 say that a trained hireling includes "mercenary warriors, masons, craftsmen, cooks, scribes, teamsters, and other trained hirelings." Untrained includes "laborers, maids, and other menial workers."

You're kind of missing the point. That might be what the price chart says, but the rules are pretty explicit that they can make more than that just by taking 10. The equipment books also have silly nonsense like extremely expensive charcoal.

Seriously, with how much the supposed market price of charcoal is, you'd be better off investing in an iron pot and firewood instead of adventuring. You'd make a hell of a lot more money for less trouble.

[JoeJ]

Ashiel wrote:

JoeJ wrote:

The hireling price is 3sp/day trained and 1sp/day untrained according to the price list on p. 159. The definitions of p. 163 say that a trained hireling includes "mercenary warriors, masons, craftsmen, cooks, scribes, teamsters, and other trained hirelings." Untrained includes "laborers, maids, and other menial workers."

You're kind of missing the point. That might be what the price chart says, but the rules are pretty explicit that they can make more than that just by taking 10. The equipment books also have silly nonsense like extremely expensive charcoal.

Seriously, with how much the supposed market price of charcoal is, you'd be better off investing in an iron pot and firewood instead of adventuring. You'd make a hell of a lot more money for less trouble.

So why are craftsmen hiring themselves out for 3 sp/day when they can make more than that just making things? That's just another example of the absurd economic system implied by the standard prices.

[wraithstrike]

The game is an abstraction, and the prices are not made to support a real economy. They are there for the players, more than anything else. Some thought was put into it, but it is not like anyone went and wrote a thesis to determine what the prices should be and why everything is the same price no matter who you buy it from.

To go back to the OP if you a GM tries to short change me, and that is my only problem I am crafting my own magic items. If I am one of those poor martial types who really needs the gear then I am taking master craftsmen or just going caster.

Anyone can think of any reason to justify a rule as a GM, but changing rules often has other implications on game balance when you try to use "because realism" as your reasoning, even if the reasoning is sound in real life.

You also have to remember that adventures are dangerous people, and there are entire organizations made up of adventurers. If you have a price fixing organization they are also made up of adventures. If not then someone is going to need to protect them, and they wont like the higher prices. Either way I don't expect adventures to support the higher prices.