Can Sleeves of Many Garments Produce a Swarm Suit?


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If not, is there a good reason to give a player besides "it's too cheap of an item to do that"?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It is an outfit.

You can also produce things like the Cold/Hot Weather Outfit, Shinobi shōzoku, or Pickpocket's outfit, and receive the relevant bonuses.


They are 200g. Why would they not be able to duplicate a 20g item?

Note they can also duplicate a 200g Royal outfit.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

This question came up when I GMed at PaizoCon. I often rule "no", but I had a persistent player and it really didn't affect the game.

The problem comes from a Swarm Suit not being an article of "clothing". It's something you wear over clothing, and it is in a different section of Ultimate Equipment. If it were clothing, it would be listed in the "clothing" section.

But it really isn't all that game-breaking to allow it.


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If it can, it's all the more reason for every single adventurer to get a pair and for someone to (please, for the love of God) make swarms not terrifying.


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It all depends on whether or not you treat the reference to clothing in the Sleeves description as literally only meaning items on the clothing list of equipment lists.

The swarmsuit specifically calls itself clothing. The fact that you wear it over other clothes doesn't seem to be relevant. You wear a jacket over other clothes, you wear trousers over your underwear unless you are Superman.

Sczarni

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andreww wrote:

It all depends on whether or not you treat the reference to clothing in the Sleeves description as literally only meaning items on the clothing list of equipment lists.

The swarmsuit specifically calls itself clothing. The fact that you wear it over other clothes doesn't seem to be relevant. You wear a jacket over other clothes, you wear trousers over your underwear unless you are Superman.

Silly, silly andreww, everyone knows that there are no trousers in Pathfinder.

Also, it looks pretty legit and is a wonderful way to fight swarms early in the game, when you don't have another item to put in the bracers slot.


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If I interpret the sleeves correct they function like a hat of disguise, but limited to clothing only. This means the new clothing is only an illusion, the base cloth don't change at all (same AC, abilities etc.) [like the Glamered Armor enhancment].

Why do I interpret it this way?

Aura faint illusion; CL 1st
Craft Wondrous Item, disguise self; Cost 100 gp.

Link: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/sleev es-of-many-garments


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Tryn wrote:

If I interpret the sleeves correct they function like a hat of disguise, but limited to clothing only. This means the new clothing is only an illusion, the base cloth don't change at all (same AC, abilities etc.) [like the Glamered Armor enhancment].

Why do I interpret it this way?

Aura faint illusion; CL 1st
Craft Wondrous Item, disguise self; Cost 100 gp.

Link: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/sleev es-of-many-garments

Except that the item very specifically says that it creates a set of clothing. The fact that you require disguise self to make the item is neither here nor there. The item specifically says:

Quote:
The wearer of these sleeves can, when she slips them on, choose to transform her current garments into any other non-magical set of clothing.

Change it for your game if you wish but it is a houserule.

Sovereign Court

andreww wrote:

It all depends on whether or not you treat the reference to clothing in the Sleeves description as literally only meaning items on the clothing list of equipment lists.

The swarmsuit specifically calls itself clothing. The fact that you wear it over other clothes doesn't seem to be relevant. You wear a jacket over other clothes, you wear trousers over your underwear unless you are Superman.

This.

"Clothing" is one of those words that within the confines of the Pathfinder Rules can be viewed as not only a conversational word but also a rules keyword. When choosing to do so, a swarmsuit would be keyed as "Equipment" rather than "Clothing".

By that reading, a swarmsuit, despite being worn, does not technically/fully count as "Clothing". Continuing with this reading, one could also exempt other worn items from being considered "Clothing" (and thus unreplicatable by a sleeve of many garments) such as jewelry, harnesses/belts, backpacks, etc.


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Based on the fact that you use a illusion spell and it has an illusion aura, I would say it is an illusion effect.

I would say the description is just bad phrased. But only the devs will know for sure. ;)

[Especially as creating a minor item for lvl/hours is a 4th level spell (Minor Creation: Creates one cloth or wood object.)]

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The clothes created are real clothes, and act as such.

You don't walk around in the nude, wearing illusionary clothes, and freezing your delicates.

These are not the Emperor's new clothes.


At that cost, they should be.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Majuba wrote:
At that cost, they should be.

Irrelevant.

The same complaint exists for the Mask of Stony Demeanor.

It still works exactly as described.


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I really like the "as written is law" people who don't think about game design or the possibility that it's just bad phrased (and ignoring the fact that it's illusion magic not transmutation (like at the said mask)...

btw transform: to undergo a change in form, appearance, or character...

so based on the phrasing it could also mean that only the appearance is changed...

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Many of the prerequisites for magical items make no sense.

Example: All Tool's Vest requires Summon Instrument. It provides tools for Craft, and has nothing to do with musical instruments, or the Perform skill in any way.


Hmm... on the one hand, the talk about the clothes fitting perfectly, and transforming does tend to make me think they were intended to actually change the clothing.

On the other hand, from a game balance perspective, and from the spells involved, it should be an illusion effect.

I want it to be the former as a player, but the latter as a GM. I'm not quite enough of a hypocrite to try and have it both ways though =D

I think I'll go with Nefreet's argument for my games, and limit it to things actually under "clothing", but have it actually transform. Seems like a fine compromise to me, and makes the sleeves still very much worth their price until you otherwise need the bracers slot, such as for the certainly broken Bracers of Falcon's Aim. Perhaps the balance rules are just not as strenuously applied to bracers? ;D


@All Tool's Vest:
The vest summons (Conjuration) a tool for a crafting skill. As there is no similar spell, you will use the next best spell.

Summon instrument summons (Conjuration) a tool for a perform skill.

You see why they used this for the item? If there were a "summon tool" spell, this woudl be used (same school, same area etc.).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, this is the poor man's Hat of Disguise?

Except, you know, no actual bonus to Disguise, or anything else.

I don't think it should be that terrible.

I would not houserule it to function that way.

Hell, if the Swarmsuit didn't exist, would anyone be whining about it?


People have whined about it before outside of the context of the swarmsuit, so yes.


It's not about whining. It's about: If you'd have to be an idiot NOT to get this item, then it inherently reduces diversity among players, reduces their actual choice set, and thus reduces fun.


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Quote:

So, this is the poor man's Hat of Disguise?

Except, you know, no actual bonus to Disguise, or anything else.

For 1/10 of the price.. yes I would say exactly this.


Tryn wrote:
Quote:

So, this is the poor man's Hat of Disguise?

Except, you know, no actual bonus to Disguise, or anything else.
For 1/10 of the price.. yes I would say exactly this.

It doesn't come close to an actual hat of disguise. It is giving you a set of clothing, that's it. 200gp seems like a perfectly reasonable price for it, whether it allows swarmsuit or not (and I tend to view it as doing so).


blackbloodtroll wrote:

It is an outfit.

You can also produce things like the Cold/Hot Weather Outfit, Shinobi shōzoku, or Pickpocket's outfit, and receive the relevant bonuses.

It's not actually an outfit. It transforms your existing clothes into any other kind of clothing. Sometimes, this is an important point.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, it's worse than an actual outfit, as it provides none of the bonuses that a real outfit does?

Such as, a Cold Weather Outfit, which grants a +5 circumstance bonus on Fortitude saving throws against exposure to cold weather.


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deusvult wrote:
andreww wrote:

It all depends on whether or not you treat the reference to clothing in the Sleeves description as literally only meaning items on the clothing list of equipment lists.

The swarmsuit specifically calls itself clothing. The fact that you wear it over other clothes doesn't seem to be relevant. You wear a jacket over other clothes, you wear trousers over your underwear unless you are Superman.

This.

"Clothing" is one of those words that within the confines of the Pathfinder Rules can be viewed as not only a conversational word but also a rules keyword. When choosing to do so, a swarmsuit would be keyed as "Equipment" rather than "Clothing".

By that reading, a swarmsuit, despite being worn, does not technically/fully count as "Clothing". Continuing with this reading, one could also exempt other worn items from being considered "Clothing" (and thus unreplicatable by a sleeve of many garments) such as jewelry, harnesses/belts, backpacks, etc.

Specific trumps general. It is fair to say that Swarmsuit is under the list of Adventuring Gear and not Clothing, but the specific description of Swarmsuit states that it is Clothing.

Your evidence is not false, but it fails to prove the point. You need further evidence.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, it's worse than an actual outfit, as it provides none of the bonuses that a real outfit does?

Such as, a Cold Weather Outfit, which grants a +5 circumstance bonus on Fortitude saving throws against exposure to cold weather.

I wouldn't say so. It transforms your clothes. It doesn't Glamor your clothes. They really would become Cold Weather Clothes, so they really would give you your +5.

But if you were naked, your Sleeves would have no clothing to transform, and just be left to shiver.


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The Lion Cleric wrote:
andreww wrote:

It all depends on whether or not you treat the reference to clothing in the Sleeves description as literally only meaning items on the clothing list of equipment lists.

The swarmsuit specifically calls itself clothing. The fact that you wear it over other clothes doesn't seem to be relevant. You wear a jacket over other clothes, you wear trousers over your underwear unless you are Superman.

Silly, silly andreww, everyone knows that there are no trousers in Pathfinder.

Also, it looks pretty legit and is a wonderful way to fight swarms early in the game, when you don't have another item to put in the bracers slot.

I envision the party meat shield putting on the Sleeves to make a Swarmsuit, and the party bard casting Summon Swarm centered on him. The Swarm will center on him and follow him and attack everyone near him. It transforms Summon Swarm into a fairly powerful level 2 attack spell.


It's pretty clear to me that it's a Disguise Self that targets only your clothing.

It's an illusion that makes them look however you want, including clean and well tailored.

I'd even say if your clothes started dirty, they still be dirty after you took the magical sleeves off.

If you made your clothes look like a swarm suit, you'd get no protection from a swarm.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, it's worse than an actual outfit, as it provides none of the bonuses that a real outfit does?

Such as, a Cold Weather Outfit, which grants a +5 circumstance bonus on Fortitude saving throws against exposure to cold weather.

If it's just an illusion, you get whatever bonus the clothes would normally have when not 'transformed'. That's the same, not worse.

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, it's worse than an actual outfit, as it provides none of the bonuses that a real outfit does?

Such as, a Cold Weather Outfit, which grants a +5 circumstance bonus on Fortitude saving throws against exposure to cold weather.

I wouldn't say so. It transforms your clothes. It doesn't Glamor your clothes. They really would become Cold Weather Clothes, so they really would give you your +5.

But if you were naked, your Sleeves would have no clothing to transform, and just be left to shiver.

I agree with this.

I'll give another example.

I have a character who is an Oracle with the Wrecker curse, which gives everything you hold or wear the broken condition. There's no mechanical penalty for clothing having the broken condition, but they still obviously *look* tattered.

I had planned on giving her the Sleeves of Many Garments as a way of making her be able to *appear* to be well-dressed, but because of the way it's written, that won't work. Because it is making actual clothing, a round later they will gain the broken condition and be trashed again. Whereas if it were actually an illusion, they would continue to look pristine.


Inviktus wrote:

It's pretty clear to me that it's a Disguise Self that targets only your clothing.

It's an illusion that makes them look however you want, including clean and well tailored.

I'd even say if your clothes started dirty, they still be dirty after you took the magical sleeves off.

If you made your clothes look like a swarm suit, you'd get no protection from a swarm.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, it's worse than an actual outfit, as it provides none of the bonuses that a real outfit does?

Such as, a Cold Weather Outfit, which grants a +5 circumstance bonus on Fortitude saving throws against exposure to cold weather.

If it's just an illusion, you get whatever bonus the clothes would normally have when not 'transformed'. That's the same, not worse.

I own a copy of Ultimate Equipment and have corroborated that d20pfsrd is in line with the text of the Book.

"Sleeves of Many Garments
Aura faint illusion; CL 1st
Slot wrists; Price 200 gp; Weight 1 lb.

DESCRIPTION

These translucent cloth tubes easily fit over their wearer’s arms.

The wearer of these sleeves can, when she slips them on, choose to transform her current garments into any other non-magical set of clothing. These new clothes fit her perfectly and are always clean and mended unless she specifically designates otherwise. When she removes the sleeves, her clothes revert to their original form."--http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r -z/sleeves-of-many-garments

While it does detect as having an Illusion aura to Detect Magic, and it is made with the Disguise Self Spell, the description of what the item does is it transforms your clothes. It doesn't glamor them.

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

My apologies ahead of time, but it's a pet peeve of mine when people don't post links properly.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Linkified

When you post a link in the manner that you did, Paizo breaks it in half (notice the space in the middle of your link?), and renders it useless to the rest of us. It is in an attempt to curtail spam.

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Anywhom, it seems we've discovered two reasons why Sleeves of Many Garments replicating a Swarmsuit is a somewhat contentious issue:

1) people disagree whether the Sleeves are illusory or transformative.

and

2) people disagree whether a Swarmsuit is defined as "clothing" or not.

This lends to 4 different interpretations. The best way to handle this (in PFS, at least) is to just ask your GM before the game starts how they rule the interaction, and briefly describe the debate if the GM is unaware of it. I doubt anyone's character build will be relying on this combination, so whether the answer is "yes/yes", "yes/no", "no/yes", or "no/no" it shouldn't be character-breaking.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Majuba wrote:
At that cost, they should be.

Irrelevant.

The same complaint exists for the Mask of Stony Demeanor.

It still works exactly as described.

A bit off-topic, but I have found that many players think the Mask of Stony Demeanor works exactly as described except for the part they don't like where they have to talk in a robotic monotone.

On-topic:

Swarmsuit wrote:
These heavy and overlapping layers of clothing, coupled with a wide hat outfitted with a dense, veil-like netting around its brim makes it all but impossible for Diminutive and Fine creatures to make physical contact with your body. Wearing a swarmsuit cuts your speed in half, but gives you DR 10/— against swarms of Fine creatures and DR 5/— against swarms of Diminutive creatures.

It says "layers of clothing coupled with [a bunch more stuff]." That is not the same as a set of Clothing (capital 'c', under the Clothing section). The Sentry Mannequin also includes baggy clothing, but it would not be considered 'non-magical clothing' just because non-magical clothing is a part of its construction.

I absolutely see room for interpretation either way, but I don't see how anyone could state definitively that "the specific description of Swarmsuit states that it is Clothing."


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Nefreet wrote:

Anywhom, it seems we've discovered two reasons why Sleeves of Many Garments replicating a Swarmsuit is a somewhat contentious issue:

1) people disagree whether the Sleeves are illusory or transformative.

and

2) people disagree whether a Swarmsuit is defined as "clothing" or not.

This lends to 4 different interpretations. The best way to handle this (in PFS, at least) is to just ask your GM before the game starts how they rule the interaction, and briefly describe the debate if the GM is unaware of it. I doubt anyone's character build will be relying on this combination, so whether the answer is "yes/yes", "yes/no", "no/yes", or "no/no" it shouldn't be character-breaking.

Good summary Nefreet.

1) Whether or not the Sleeves are illusory or transformative depend on how you answer the following question:
When you use the Sleeves to provide a hot/cold weather outfit, do you gain the mechanical benefit of the outfit?
If yes, then the Sleeves are transformative. If no, then the Sleeves are illusory. I believe you do get the mechanical bonus and therefore the Sleeves are transformative.

2) As for the swarmsuit issue, I believe that the Sleeves cannot create a swarmsuit. I am of the camp that believes that Table 2-9 of Ultimate Equipment defines "clothing". The swarmsuit is listed in Table 2-1 of Ultimate Equipment under adventuring gear. I equate the listing of swarmsuit in Table 2-1 to the listing of armor in Table 1-1 of Ultimate Equipment. Despite there being an entry for "armored coat" in Table 1-1, I don't think there is much dispute that the Sleeves cannot provide an armored coat even if coats are clothing and are worn like clothing and coats with armor plates on them are still coats.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

While it does detect as having an Illusion aura to Detect Magic, and it is made with the Disguise Self Spell, the description of what the item does is it transforms your clothes. It doesn't glamor them.

Yes, I had read that. We just seem to interpret it entirely differently.

That fact is having it be a minor illusion is more in line with it's price.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Pink Dragon wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Anywhom, it seems we've discovered two reasons why Sleeves of Many Garments replicating a Swarmsuit is a somewhat contentious issue:

1) people disagree whether the Sleeves are illusory or transformative.

and

2) people disagree whether a Swarmsuit is defined as "clothing" or not.

This lends to 4 different interpretations. The best way to handle this (in PFS, at least) is to just ask your GM before the game starts how they rule the interaction, and briefly describe the debate if the GM is unaware of it. I doubt anyone's character build will be relying on this combination, so whether the answer is "yes/yes", "yes/no", "no/yes", or "no/no" it shouldn't be character-breaking.

Good summary Nefreet.

1) Whether or not the Sleeves are illusory or transformative depend on how you answer the following question:
When you use the Sleeves to provide a hot/cold weather outfit, do you gain the mechanical benefit of the outfit?
If yes, then the Sleeves are transformative. If no, then the Sleeves are illusory. I believe you do get the mechanical bonus and therefore the Sleeves are transformative.

2) As for the swarmsuit issue, I believe that the Sleeves cannot create a swarmsuit. I am of the camp that believes that Table 2-9 of Ultimate Equipment defines "clothing". The swarmsuit is listed in Table 2-1 of Ultimate Equipment under adventuring gear. I equate the listing of swarmsuit in Table 2-1 to the listing of armor in Table 1-1 of Ultimate Equipment. Despite there being an entry for "armored coat" in Table 1-1, I don't think there is much dispute that the Sleeves cannot provide an armored coat even if coats are clothing and are worn like clothing and coats with armor plates on them are still coats.

That's exactly how I rule them as well.


Ultimate Equipment says the SoMG transforms the clothing. The clothing is changed into other clothing, because that is what it says.

Ultimate Equipment says the Swarmsuit is clothing, so it is.

While I agree that SoMG is a lovely magic item for the price even if it doesn't do that. The rulebook says it does.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Ultimate Equipment says the Swarmsuit is clothing, so it is.

I just hope you accept that not everyone will agree with you on that.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Ultimate Equipment says the SoMG transforms the clothing. The clothing is changed into other clothing, because that is what it says.

Ultimate Equipment says the Swarmsuit is clothing, so it is.

While I agree that SoMG is a lovely magic item for the price even if it doesn't do that. The rulebook says it does.

The Clothing section in my copy of Ultimate Equipment goes from Soldier's Uniform to Tabard. Is Swarmsuit listed in the Clothing section in your copy?


redward wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Ultimate Equipment says the SoMG transforms the clothing. The clothing is changed into other clothing, because that is what it says.

Ultimate Equipment says the Swarmsuit is clothing, so it is.

While I agree that SoMG is a lovely magic item for the price even if it doesn't do that. The rulebook says it does.

The Clothing section in my copy of Ultimate Equipment goes from Soldier's Uniform to Tabard. Is Swarmsuit listed in the Clothing section in your copy?

Swamsuits description calls itself clothing, are you suggesting it isn't?


andreww wrote:
redward wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Ultimate Equipment says the SoMG transforms the clothing. The clothing is changed into other clothing, because that is what it says.

Ultimate Equipment says the Swarmsuit is clothing, so it is.

While I agree that SoMG is a lovely magic item for the price even if it doesn't do that. The rulebook says it does.

The Clothing section in my copy of Ultimate Equipment goes from Soldier's Uniform to Tabard. Is Swarmsuit listed in the Clothing section in your copy?
Swamsuits description calls itself clothing, are you suggesting it isn't?

I am and already did:

redward wrote:

It says "layers of clothing coupled with [a bunch more stuff]." That is not the same as a set of Clothing (capital 'c', under the Clothing section). The Sentry Mannequin also includes baggy clothing, but it would not be considered 'non-magical clothing' just because non-magical clothing is a part of its construction.

I absolutely see room for interpretation either way, but I don't see how anyone could state definitively that "the specific description of Swarmsuit states that it is Clothing."

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
andreww wrote:
Swamsuits description calls itself clothing, are you suggesting it isn't?

When I read the description of the Sleeves, and see that it mentions "clothing", my next step is to jump to the "clothing" section and see what they can replicate.

Pathfinder designates things in categories. Charm Person doesn't work on Tieflings. Being proficient in medium armor doesn't mean medium-sized armor. So when an item references "clothing", it's calling out a specific category of items, which is conveniently located in the same book.

And that category doesn't include the Swarmsuit.

Grand Lodge

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Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Ultimate Equipment says the SoMG transforms the clothing. The clothing is changed into other clothing, because that is what it says.

Ultimate Equipment says the Swarmsuit is clothing, so it is.

While I agree that SoMG is a lovely magic item for the price even if it doesn't do that. The rulebook says it does.

Actually, UE says that the Swarmsuit is "multiple layers of clothing."

So each SoMG can turn one outfit you are wearing into one layer of a swarm suit. :)

Sadly, one layer of a swarmsuit does you no good whatsoever, and you can't equip multiple SoMG.


Clever bit of sophistry, FLite, but the Swarmsuit is 1 item, and its description says it is clothing.

Sovereign Court

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Clever bit of sophistry, FLite, but the Swarmsuit is 1 item, and its description says it is clothing.

But is clothing the same thing as Clothing?

Not necessarily, and that's the crux of the issue.


deusvult wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Clever bit of sophistry, FLite, but the Swarmsuit is 1 item, and its description says it is clothing.

But is clothing the same thing as Clothing?

Not necessarily, and that's the crux of the issue.

I think that is the crux of the issue. And I do consider it unlikely that the writers thought of using the SoMG to create a Swarmsuit, but we can only speculate at the RAI, and anyway, it's hardly relevant. If we players think of things the writers didn't, then that is just good and creative playing, and the very soul of the game.

In a nonPFS game, it is the DM's call. Since the purpose of PFS is to sell PFS products, and that he who buys the cool books gets the cool benefits.

I think PFS DMs need compelling evidence to rule against the customer, and I don't think the argument against successfully bears the burden of proof.


Clothing is Clothing. Unless it's trying to take over your world and detonate it to propagate itself. Then its COVERS. A swarmsuit cannot transform your clothing into COVERS.

Swarmsuit is clothing. Sleeves of Many Garments can transform your clothes into it. Simple. It's multiple sets of "clothing" you say? So is a jacket over a shirt, deal with it.


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Give the swarm a will save to disbelieve the created swarmsuit. Problem solved! :P

Grand Lodge

Anzyr wrote:

Clothing is Clothing. Unless it's trying to take over your world and detonate it to propagate itself. Then its COVERS. A swarmsuit cannot transform your clothing into COVERS.

Swarmsuit is clothing. Sleeves of Many Garments can transform your clothes into it. Simple. It's multiple sets of "clothing" you say? So is a jacket over a shirt, deal with it.

Actually, you are ignoring at least one part of the Sleeves text: set of clothing. Not shirt, not pants, not jacket, but a set of clothing.

So, the real questions are whether it lives down to the spell used to Craft it, or up to the item's own text. Item's own text, by PF general rules of specific overriding general, should be the way you use it. As written, not as you think it should be, so transform wins over appears.

And, indeed, if "any non-magical clothing" means only things from the Clothing item list or not.

Explorer's outfit? Yes
Snowshoes? According to the "items in the Clothing list" set, yes

Note that, if it were an illusion, in itself, it would give information, like Disguise Self spell, on how it works as a +X to disguise, but allows someone who interacts with it a Will save. No Will save mentioned, so it is not in itself a disguise, it is a different set of clothing.

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